Tobiano, can someone explain

[kayla221444]

Hello All, I am pretty sure I have been reading correctly, Tobiano does NOT create facial markings correct? If a tobiano has any white on its face it is either carrying Splash or frame right? Then it would be considered a Tovero, tobiano carrying splash or frame overo.

 

[Boinky]

i'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought a Tobiano COULD have regular blaze/snip ect patterns. If you have irregular patterns like a bald face or apron face and blue eyes..THEN it could be splash.

 

[Dona]

Tobiano does NOT cause any facial white. If you have a horse who is Tobiano, but also has ANY white facial marking....it is carrying another pattern. Either Frame, Splash, or Sabino could be causing the facial white....but not Tobiano.

 

[kayla221444]

Does anyone else have any information on this?

 

[Songcatcher]

Does anyone else have any information on this? I am trying to show a friend, whom thinks tobiano in-deed does cause face white. Just want to see who is correct.

The big problem is that the Pinto registry is not as knowledgeable regarding genetics as they should be. (I'm not trying to put down the Pinto people, the same could apply to ANY of the registries.) Another problem is that so many patterns are mixed and there is no test for some of them. SB1 is the only Sabinio pattern that there is a test for and it is widely believed that there are several Sabino genes with no test yet. There also is no test for Splash. Therefore, it is impossible to "prove" that Tobiano does not cause face white, but careful observation and study shows that horses with face white also exhibit the characteristics of one of the other patterns. Unfortunately, equinecolor.com seems to be down at the present. It is/was a great source of information on color genetics.

 

[Taylor Jo]

Ok now I'm confused. I have 2 black and white pinto's. One has NO white on her face, what is she? And then I have one that has a white blaze and then the rest black on his face what is he? THEN I have another pinto that has a white STAR on his head, the rest bay, and he's a bay and white pinto. Totally confused, are they what???..... TJ Thanks.

 

[Songcatcher]

Ok now I'm confused. I have 2 black and white pinto's. One has NO white on her face, what is she? And then I have one that has a white blaze and then the rest black on his face what is he? THEN I have another pinto that has a white STAR on his head, the rest bay, and he's a bay and white pinto. Totally confused, are they what???..... TJ Thanks.

Without photos, it would be impossible to tell. Rest assured, there is something there in addition to Tobiano. There may be one pattern, or multiple patterns. The horse below is Tobiano/Splash/Sabino. He does NOT carry Frame.

 

[kayla221444]

pretty little guy? you got there!

 

[Songcatcher]

pretty little guy? you got there!

Thank you. His name is Bears Snips Illustration. We call him Bandit because of his mask. He has been our main herd sire for several years. He is heterozygous for each of the following: Red/Black, Tobiano, Splash, Sabino, and also carries Cream. With his mixture of color and pattern genes, we have gotten almost every color of foal possible, depending on the color/pattern of the mare. It is always a surprise when the new foals arrive.

 

[Taylor Jo]

Oh my gosh your guy is beautiful. On my avatar is my gelding if you can see him. TJ

 

[Songcatcher]

Oh my gosh your guy is beautiful. On my avatar is my gelding if you can see him. TJ

Too small a picture to see with my tired old eyes. Here is a link to a page on my website that will explain some basics.

Color Genetics 101

 

[Club Mini]

Hi.

here is a link that i think might help explain a few things...genetics...color patterns...etc.

plus, it has a color calculator for predicting the colors of the foals.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm

 

[Bunnylady]

The theory holds that Tobiano doesn't cause face white. If there is white on the face, the animal is also carrying and expressing some other pattern gene in addition to Tobi. Until we have tests for all of them, we won't know for sure.

TJ, it's a bit hard to see much about the guy in your avatar, but he looks like he has Tobiano for sure (black on head, black on chest, white on neck/shoulders.) His blaze looks a bit lop-sided, so Splash looks likely, as well.

The chunky monkey in the following pictures is my filly, Sydney. She also has the classic Tobiano pattern. In addition, Syd has a fairly symmetrical blaze, which suggests that the Sabino gene is responsible for her face white. Sabino can also cause "roaning" on the body. Some Sabinos are roaned all over. You can't see it in these pictures, but Syd has some roaning on the colored areas on her flanks, the amount of roaning seems to change each time she sheds!

I have no intention of breeding Syd, so I haven't had her tested. Gads, she's so tall, I'm not even sure I could get her registered!

 

[icspots]

I suppose I should put on a flame suit for this but....I raised paint horses for years before raising minis and I would have to disagree that tobianos don't cause face white. Now MAYBE there is some unknown pattern out there that there is no test for, but from my experience a tobiano's face marking is kinda on the same lines as a QH, they can have none, or a blaze or a star, strip snip etc, but once that white crosses the plane of the face you have definitely just jumped into the overo, sabino pattern. Of course blue eyes are NOT tobiano, they can come from Overos or Sabinos. OK, flame away!

 

[Boinky]

Icspots. I've been reading a bunch of web sites lately on colors since i got my first Tovero. Never been much on pinto's and i knew the basics. anyhow what your saying is what most of the web pages seem to say!! that's why i posted above that i thought they could have "regular" face markings like blazes, snips, stars ect. most of the tobs i've seen have some sort of face markings. may not BE the tob gene like you say but it says they CAN have face markings (but not always).

 

[Songcatcher]

Of course a Tobi CAN have face white, but it is not caused by the Tobi gene. It is caused by another gene. Possibly Sabino, Splash, or Frame. As mentioned earlier, Splash will often cause off centered white while Sabino trys to keep it symmetrical. When two patterns are "fighting" each other, strange things can happen.

 

[nbark]

Hi,

I had Paints before minis and the standard was that a tobiano is any horse with white that crosses the back, can have white blaze or snip, usually white below the knees and even (not splashy) markings as your youngster, who is very handsome, has. Overo had majority of white on the face, markings that were put there by paint ball, if you get my drift, and the white did not cross the back.

Since being out of Paints, they now have tovero and I cannot help with that one. You can always check the Paint Association for their color standards.

Hope this helps a little.

 

[Songcatcher]

Hi,
I had Paints before minis and the standard was that a tobiano is any horse with white that crosses the back, can have white blaze or snip, usually white below the knees and even (not splashy) markings as your youngster, who is very handsome, has. Overo had majority of white on the face, markings that were put there by paint ball, if you get my drift, and the white did not cross the back.

Since being out of Paints, they now have tovero and I cannot help with that one. You can always check the Paint Association for their color standards.

Hope this helps a little.

This is the problem with the Paint Association standards. They are based on phenotype or what a horse looks like, NOT on genotype, the genes the horse actually has. The young mare below is lab tested Tobiano and has none of the characteristics you listed above except the white below the knees.

The mare below does not have a majority of white on the face, and obviously has white crossing the back, and she is lab tested Frame Overo (LWO).

The descriptions given by the Paint Horse Association do not necessarily match the genes a horse actually carries. But, as I said earlier (possibly on a different thread) all the registries seem to have the same problem. Their descriptions were developed before genetic testing was available and they have not updated.

 

[icspots]

Beg to differ Songcatcher, a few years ago the paint association did recognize the black with socks as a tobiano, the descriptor being, if they have a tobiano parent, no white on the face and socks they are in fact tobiano, I was pretty skeptical of that , and tested my little stallion who irritated me at birth because his daddy is homozygous, and sure enough he is in fact a tobiano! I also have a little mare colored exactly like the white one, and she is tobiano and evidently splash overo (per the blue eyes) because she tests negative for both sabino and frame. I don't consider her a tovero, because of the facial white although technically she is because of the eyes....clear as mud, right??

 

[turtlecreek]

I'm still learning about dilutes - haven't ventured towrds patterns really yet. Here's my little girl. The only thing I did not test for was Sabino. Her blaze is pretty crooked - so if I'm reading right that could mean she has Splash?

Well, can't seem to upload the pic. Oh well.