Tobiano, can someone explain

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

This is my little guy the day after I brought him home last year. Both his sire and dam are tobiano, with his sire being homozygous for pinto. He doesn't have white that crosses his back, but he is still considered a tobiano, correct? Also he has a white snip on his nose. Does that mean something other than tobiano? I'm going to have him tested. He has Rowdy in his pedigree, so would I test for tobiano and LWO?

Thanks everybody! These color threads are always a learning experience!!

 

[Songcatcher]

This is my little guy the day after I brought him home last year. Both his sire and dam are tobiano, with his sire being homozygous for pinto. He doesn't have white that crosses his back, but he is still considered a tobiano, correct? Also he has a white snip on his nose. Does that mean something other than tobiano? I'm going to have him tested. He has Rowdy in his pedigree, so would I test for tobiano and LWO?
Thanks everybody! These color threads are always a learning experience!!

If it has Rowdy in the pedigree and I were planning on using for breeding, I would DEFINATELY test for LWO. Breeding two LWO positive horses together gives a 25% chance of a lethal foal. Breeding LWO positive to LWO negative has no danger of a lethal foal.

Tobiano does NOT have to have white crossing the back. So many people get confused by thinking that a horse must be one pattern OR the other, when in fact, most are a combination of pattern genes.

 

[icspots]

If I had to guess, I'd say he was a grulla tobiano with some splash, but of course splash is an unverifiable overo gene due to the unavailability of a test!

 

[Dona]

This is my little guy the day after I brought him home last year. Both his sire and dam are tobiano, with his sire being homozygous for pinto. He doesn't have white that crosses his back, but he is still considered a tobiano, correct? Also he has a white snip on his nose. Does that mean something other than tobiano? I'm going to have him tested. He has Rowdy in his pedigree, so would I test for tobiano and LWO?
Thanks everybody! These color threads are always a learning experience!!

Just because your little guy had two Tobiano parents, doesn't necessarily mean he got the Tobiano gene at all. If both parents are only heterzygous for Tobiano, (only had 1 gene) and neither of them threw their Tobi gene....then he wouldn't carry Tobiano at all. Not saying that is what happened in his case, just that it's possible.

He appears to be carrying either Splash or Frame (LWO) Coming from Rowdy bloodlines, I would suspect LWO, and would have him tested for that. And of course, he could be all three....Tobi, Splash, Frame...and even Sabino!

 

[Dona]

I suppose I should put on a flame suit for this but....I raised paint horses for years before raising minis and I would have to disagree that tobianos don't cause face white. Now MAYBE there is some unknown pattern out there that there is no test for, but from my experience a tobiano's face marking is kinda on the same lines as a QH, they can have none, or a blaze or a star, strip snip etc, but once that white crosses the plane of the face you have definitely just jumped into the overo, sabino pattern. Of course blue eyes are NOT tobiano, they can come from Overos or Sabinos. OK, flame away!

Not going to flame you at all....just want to correct something you said. Blue eyes come from either Splash or Frame genes. Sabino does not cause blue eyes.

Also, you mentioned that you raised Paint horses for years and had to disagree that Tobiano doesn't cause face white.

On what do you base that statement? Did you test for the other color patterns back then? It is widely accepted that Sabino causes a lot of the "normal" white markings on face & legs of otherwise "solid" horses. So, I would suspect that many of the Tobianos you had with white facial markings also carried Sabino......or maybe even one of the other Overo genes.

Without testing, there would be no way to know for sure.

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Dona, his sire is homozygous for tobiano. Plus he has the belly spot that goes up his side. If the belly spot doesn't mean tobiano, what else could it be? Sorry, I'm just trying to learn this stuff!

 

[Dona]

Dona, his sire is homozygous for tobiano. Plus he has the belly spot that goes up his side. If the belly spot doesn't mean tobiano, what else could it be? Sorry, I'm just trying to learn this stuff!

That belly spot looks typical of a Splash marking to me. Splash patterns usually start on the belly & move up the sides.

Frame patterns create white markings on the sides, framed with dark on top & bottom.

Tobiano creates white markings over the back & sides, usually with dark on the belly.

Of course, all of these can be affected by how extreme the markings are. The examples I've given you are just the "typical" way they are marked.

Yes, if his sire is homozygous....your little guy is definitely Tobiano as well.

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Thanks Dona! Now my biggie, is homozygous for tobiano and homozygous for black. Yes I see how the colts spot seems to come up from the bottom. Very different than my biggies spots. Interesting.......

 

[Sandee]

I guess I really need to test but if I'm understanding all this correctly this little girl must carry just about everything. The white goes across her back but it also comes from under her belly and the marks are irregular. She has only a dusting of white in the swirl on her face. When clipped the back all the way to the tail is roaned.

 

[Bunnylady]

Ooh, Sandee, your girl's a cutie! I agree, she's not one to ask "which pattern gene does this horse have," but rather, "how many pattern genes does this horse have (express?)"

I'd put my money on Tobiano and Sabino, those two seem pretty safe bets. But I wouldn't be a bit surprised if that isn't the whole story on her!

 

[icspots]

Dona, I guess I base my past experience on just that, past experience. There are a lot of "crop out" QH out there that carry sabino, and they have the blue eyes, they are neg. for frame. Do you believe that every QH with a star or a blaze is an overo carrier?? If so, it is a much weaker gene than anyone expects because they can go for generations with solid babies with nothing but facial markings. A lot of the information that we spout is merely speculation on both our part and "the experts" because without tests in place to VERIFY what they actually do carry, that is all it is, speculation. As far as the grulla colt, his sire is homozygous, and then there are those socks which are not really an overo characteristic, which is where I came up with the tobiano on him. I have a frame overo colt here that anyone would look at and say he is straight up overo, but he has the socks so I test him and sure enough he is technically a tovero as he carries the tobiano gene, mama is the same way, and daddy was a tobiano. So not trying to be argumentative, but there are a lot of different philosophies out there concerning coat patterns, and I respect them all, but there is still so much they haven't figured out, I think simple is better, so instead of analyzing every random white hair, it is just so much less daunting to those looking for answers to give a simple one.

 

[Minimor]

I think simple is better, so instead of analyzing every random white hair, it is just so much less daunting to those looking for answers to give a simple one.

I would point out that 'simple' may be easier and much less daunting, but that doesn't necessarily make it 'right'.
Those QHs with blue eyes....how do you know they don't carry splash as well as sabino??

Morgans, too, can go for generations with nothing more that facial white (star/strip/stripe/snip, whatever) and/or leg white (stockings or socks, not high white) and then one generation puts out a horse with a belly spot and/or high white on the legs. For years we all believed that the facial white and socks were nothing more than that, and the high white "just happened" but now it seems likely that all that facial white, however little of it there may be, IS a sign of one of the pinto genes...as are those stockings or socks...and the pinto pattern just doesn't come through very strong until the cross is just right. Those Morgans with "high white" are actually pintos. After 'years of experience' with there being no pinto in the Morgan breed I now have to disregard my 'past experience' and look at those minimal white markings in a different way.

 

[Dona]

Thanks Dona! Now my biggie, is homozygous for tobiano and homozygous for black. Yes I see how the colts spot seems to come up from the bottom. Very different than my biggies spots. Interesting.......

After looking at your boy again.....I think it's highly likely he carries Sabino too. He appears to have Sabino roaning, and the jagged stockings that have points, are indicative of the Sabino gene.

 

[Dona]

Dona, I guess I base my past experience on just that, past experience. There are a lot of "crop out" QH out there that carry sabino, and they have the blue eyes, they are neg. for frame. Do you believe that every QH with a star or a blaze is an overo carrier?? If so, it is a much weaker gene than anyone expects because they can go for generations with solid babies with nothing but facial markings. A lot of the information that we spout is merely speculation on both our part and "the experts" because without tests in place to VERIFY what they actually do carry, that is all it is, speculation. As far as the grulla colt, his sire is homozygous, and then there are those socks which are not really an overo characteristic, which is where I came up with the tobiano on him. I have a frame overo colt here that anyone would look at and say he is straight up overo, but he has the socks so I test him and sure enough he is technically a tovero as he carries the tobiano gene, mama is the same way, and daddy was a tobiano. So not trying to be argumentative, but there are a lot of different philosophies out there concerning coat patterns, and I respect them all, but there is still so much they haven't figured out, I think simple is better, so instead of analyzing every random white hair, it is just so much less daunting to those looking for answers to give a simple one.

There is a lot to be said for experience......heck, a lot of what I believe comes from my own experience as well. But we must combine experience with testing, if we ever hope to get the best "educated" answers possible.

And yes, I "believe" that every QH with a star or a blaze is carrying another pattern besides Tobiano.

With the many tests available now.....we no longer have to "analyze" every white hair. You can know for sure, what pinto patterns a horse carries.

The only exception would be Sabino...as the test now available only tests for 1 of the multiple Sabino genes.

Simple is OK for those who don't have an interest in knowing exactly what colors and/or patterns a horse carries. But for those who breed for particular colors or patterns....it is important to know, and "simple" just doesn't work.

 

[icspots]

I don't think QH's with facial white carry tobiano, that is one of my points! There is also no test for splash. So that is one of those "process of elimination" judgement calls, that IMO are just speculation as they have only just scraped the tip of the iceberg where tests are concerned! I have also conducted "tests", but they are nothing more than curiosity for the most part. I do think the frame test is important for the obvious reason of avoiding OLW, and I think a horse's value may be affected by test confirming that a horse is homozygous for black or tobiano, or if the horse tests positive for silver. But when you start using those random white hairs and assigning them to a pattern that is UNVERIFIABLE, all that is happening is muddying the waters in an attempt to impress people with "superior knowledge". When someone is not "in" to patterned horses, and merely want to know the easy blanket rule of thumb, going into long tedious "explanations" are unnecessary.

 

[Songcatcher]

This thread has taken so many twists and turns that it has nearly tied a knot in itself.

I do like simple. Solid has NO white. Any white hair (other than double dilute which really isn't white) is the result of one or more Pinto genes (I would make an exception for Roan or Gray). Horses that express only minimal white in stockings or face white are simply that, minnimally expressed Pintos (similar to the minimal Tobiano I posted earlier). That may carry for generations until enough different genes get together to produce more visible white. Different genes (ie. Tobiano, Splash, LWO, SB1, 2, 3, etc.) may encourage or restrict white on different areas of the body. Combinations of genes may cause difficulty in determining which is present and which is not.

How much more simple can you get and still be accurate?

 

[luv2ridesaddleseat]

Theres definately no roaning in my boy, but I guess the picture looks that way.

His summer coat is very blue and of course the dorsal stripe. Sabino can cause the jagged stockings? He also has 3 striped hooves! Crazy boy!!

 

[Floridachick]

What would you guys call our mare? She is registered APHA and I will tell you what she is considered on the paper after. WHy pattern and what color do you think she is?

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http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v608/ksohmc/Picture208.jpg

 

[Songcatcher]

What would you guys call our mare? She is registered APHA and I will tell you what she is considered on the paper after. WHy pattern and what color do you think she is?

Appearances can be misleading. Combinations of colors and patterns can mimick other colors or patterns, but here is what she "appears" to be to me.

Her base color appears to be Chestnut/Sorrel.

The darker head appears to be Classic Roan.

The jagged edges to her spots and the white on her chin are characteristic of Sabino.

The white falling off to one side on her face is an indication of Splash.

The chest shield and flank spots are typical of Tobiano.

LWO is always a possibility as it is so easily masked by other patterns.

In short, she looks like she "could" carry every Pinto pattern plus Classic Roan.

Anxious to hear your results.

 

[chandab]

What would you guys call our mare? She is registered APHA and I will tell you what she is considered on the paper after. WHy pattern and what color do you think she is?

I'd say sorrel tobiano/sabino, and I don't know enough about frame and splash to say if she might have them or not.