Vaccination time again

[Marty]

I went to order my vaccinations today and once again i see more and more vaccines available on the market to us. Wow, the pharmaceutical companies have been busy. I also noticed the price went up significantly for what I was ordering compared to what I paid last year. I was also very surprised to find that quite a few of my friends no longer vaccinate their horses for anything at all for various reasons. This got me to thinking a lot of things.

I don't have a lot of trust in the medical profession and I have to wonder how much of the pharmaceutical industry is really on the up and up. Every time I see a tv commercial that is advertising a certain medication, the list of warnings and adverse reactions floor me. I myself have been given 4 different RX that has caused me to seize, choke, screw up my heart and darn near killed me last year. So now I am very leery of medications and wonder how the heck they ever get on the market in the first place with so many problems that have not been ironed out.

I have friends that have had their entire herds come down with illness but it was never due to anything they could have vaccinated for. Presently across my state there are two barns quarantined with EIA, something else we cannot vaccinate for.

I do not feel I over vaccinate whatsoever. I only give a 4 way. However I am frankly paranoid of hearing more and more cases of horses having terrible reactions. I also never could understand why we would vaccinate the same amount to a mini that I give to my big Quarter Horse. I can never understand why we vaccinate our animals year after year. Isn't there ever enough built up in their system? There are no other horses near me, and I also have a closed barn. No one goes out or comes in, but I do worry about biting flies that may carry an illness and can travel a couple of miles and bite one of my horses. Maybe that's reaching.

I will vaccinate again this year because its what I have always done, what I have been programmed to do. But I"m not sure its the right thing to do any more.

 

[chandab]

http://hl.depaoloequineconcepts.com/?q=node%2F6
http://www.cyberhorse.net.au/csl/tetanus.htm Check out the booster recommendation on this site.

 

[Marty]

Gads........

 

[AnnaC]

That was interesting Chanda - we dont have to vaccinate for the same things that you do over in the US but I was interested to read that a tetanus booster every 5 years was sufficient - why are we sent reminders from our vets every year then??

 

[Rocklone Miniature Horses]

I freely admit I'm a non vaccinator. I've had my dog done once (parvo was proven to be in the area) and my show horse is done but that's because his owner got him done. I do plan to get my brood a set just incase and so she passes anythin on and I'll get my foal the first set but after that I'll not again. I've never had an animal die of one of these things we vacc against and I've had many animals.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Not everything found on the internet is accurate. Some information in those articles is a least misleading and at most simply false.

Veterinarians are in a tough position. Recommending protocols counter to label instructions and without research leaves us liable while adverse reactions are covered by the drug companies. Plus adverse reactions are relatively uncommon, in 18yrs of practice I've only had a handful and only 1 was life threatening.

Vaccines do produce a high gross income, but they are a poor net income producer. Spending time on a farm discussing immunity/risk to have an owner decide to only give x or y vaccine is a break even at best.

If you want your Vet to be able to recommend what they truly feel is best then sign a disclaimer saying you chose to go against the label instructions and pay the Vet what all the vaccines would cost even though not all might be given. Now the Vet can make recommendations without having to consider liability or finances.

Dr. Taylor

 

[shorthorsemom]

My vet has adopted a reduced vaccination program for dogs. The American veterinary association no longer recommends that yearly vaccinations be done on dogs and recommends no more often than every 3 years on most vaccines for dogs. I can't list off the top of my head right now but just bringing up the fact that many vets have recognized the link between cancer and other issues on dogs and cats due to over vaccination. My vet sends out yearly health reminders because it is a good idea for most folks to have their dog looked at yearly, or heartworm or lyme testing...fecal analysis ear exam etc.

I am on a further reduced vaccination program and never vaccinate my geriatric dogs and my vet never gives me a hard time about it. I do the recommended puppy shots and follow up at 1 year and then three years and then very few vaccines except rabies which is required by law, but I make sure I am right on time with that rabies shot so I can get the 3 year shot instead of the 1 year shot.

For my horses I have adopted a reduced vaccine protocol. It is a shame that the testing is not out there as yet to support the reduced vaccination protocol for horses like it is for dogs. Many dogs are vaccinated for life on their 1 year follow up puppy shots. Jean Dodds has done extensive research on vaccinations.

I typically vaccinate horses for the "insect fly in exposure diseases" that are common for our area. I do botulism because it is a good idea, but I do not do it yearly. I do rabies every 3 years because that's what I do... however, the data is just not out there for horses.

I do not like the 1 size fits all vaccination that vaccinates a 2000lb draft type horse the same as a miniature horse foal.

I got a pony once that was 15 years old and in perfect health. My vet at the time recommended a full series of vaccinations. Not knowing better I allowed her to do it. She vaccinated that pony over and over again for several months.

Not long after that last shot that pony foundered... was found to have cushings and had to be put to sleep from bute toxicity (the vet dosed the bute). Do I believe that the shots were a major contributor to that pony's issues? You betcha.

10 years ago I had two elderly dogs that my vet talked me into "just one more set of shots" on my dogs. Within 6 months both dogs were dead 2 weeks apart... One to an aggressive form of cancer and the other to Degenerative Meopathy. DM. A friend of mine also got talked into vaccination for a 15 year old dog! sheesh... dog was dead in a few months to cancer.

I have a million other examples... but I will just stick to a couple so this doesn't turn into a book...

Anyway... I do believe vaccination is a good thing... I also strongly believe that yearly vaccination is a very BAD thing and vaccinating old animals is a super BAD thing.

I did adopt a puppy once from the spca that died two weeks later of parvo. She was a foundling and 10 days later I adopted her. She was not vaccinated in those 10 days and she died of parvo. Yes I do believe in vaccination. The SPCA later changed their protocol on foundling dogs to include vaccination based on my puppy. She was sweet, I named her Shasta because she was as bubbly as a soda.

Many vets are on board with this because it was noticed that with a yearly vaccination protocol and mandate... that dogs and cats were dying. It needs to be done with horses too... research... I for one just believe in a common sense approach based on where you live and risk and I will never vaccinate yearly again.

cheers. this is all my opinion.. When I was diligent on my shots I didn't have a dog live past 10 years old for many years regardless of care... since I have adopted reduced vaccination programs I have seen longevity in my dogs return. My first girl I started reducing shots on lived 18 years...

 

[jandjmc]

Hi Marty;

I love the topics that you bring up. They always make me think.

I will not be vaccinating this year with 5- way which is what I usually use. I've given it the last 5 years, without reaction, ( maybe just lethargy). So my horses are up to date. My " jury" is still out on West Nile, which I have also given every year since it's been out, but probably won't.

Over the years, I've come to realize that vets are people, too and frequently make recommendations based on their pocketbook. Unbiased literature is very hard to come by since the pharmaceutical companies are the sponsors of most research and they start their research looking for the outcome they want to see.

My herd ranges from 22 to 5 years old and all have had plenty of vaccines. I'm going to take a common sense approach and go the middle of the road.

 

[little lady]

Well I have been researching this over the last year and based on what I had read wasn't going to vaccinate(I do it myself). My herd is a closed herd, they do not leave the property and all are in excellent health but in the back of my mind I kept thinking the cost of the vaccine vs the cost of vet care "if" one would come down with something I could have vaccinated for is cheaper to vaccinate then treat them and any lasting consequences. My main worry is west nile around here. Sooooo I will be vaccinating today.

 

[bevann]

Just finished shots yesterday(glad it is done until next year)Rabies was the last shot-just waiting to see if there are any reactions.In the past several years rabies was the culprit. I would love to not vaccinate, but scared to not do it.When West Nile 1st became an issue or state vet gave a presentation with a video showing horses with the disease.I RAN to get mine vaccinated after that. there was so much hype on the web about adverse reactions, but I never had any.Some of my horses had bad reactions to some shots.I checked into getting titers done but it didn't seem cost effective.Still doing shots, but I hate doing it.Possibility of Rabies scares the crap out of me-I've seen videos of that.We have LOTS of wild critters around here including feral cats.

 

[Margo_C-T]

This is a subject I've been giving a lot of thought for some time now. My 'herd' of four range in age from about 11-12(unregistered,exact age unknown), to 31 1/2. I have given the oldest 'only' an EWT for several years. last year no vaccination; the others, EWT and W.Nile, plus last year, gave Rabies for the first time ever, due to publicity about rabies cases within my state...but plan to not repeat until the third year. This year, I am strongly considering having Rabies given to one little 24 YO mare who's been mine for many years, but was free-leased out for a number of years, so has never had that vaccine. MAY consider W. Nile; mosquitoes aren't a big issue where I live, BUT, an 'EL NINO' is being suggested to develop for later this summer and through winter; here, that likely means MORE rain and snow than in recent years...and since the mosquito is the deadliest 'animal' on earth, due to the many deadly diseases it may carry/spread, continuing the yearly vaccination may make sense. I look forward to the day when the research is done/published as to the best overall recommendations for vaccinating equines!

These, of course, are my OWN opinions and decisions; I give all vaccinations, except Rabies, which ONLY a vet can give in my state.

 

[FurstPlaceMiniatures]

This is why I hate 97% of all equine vets, the way they price things, and just vets in general from time to time.

The witch with a B I had do my shots this year was GREEDY with a capital G! My show horse I vaccinate heavily - a 6 way (west nile, tetnus, etc), potomac (because it's common up here) and Strangles IN (because he's stabled less than 5 miles from a racetrack, and the fairgrounds we show at have PMU auctions run through from time to time that bring it frequently). PLUS a coggins and a rabies. I think it's grossly irresponsible not to vaccinate for anything people can catch, especially something as serious as rabies. The coggins fee for NYS is $7 cost to a vet. Plus the red top tube which is less than a dollar. Rabies vaccines are cheap as well.

My herd vet (for cows) refuses to do horses because of the drama that can come with them. However, he does some from time to time for his cow clients that have 1 or 2 in the backyard. He had 5 doses of potomac due to expire at the end of this summer and one dose of 6 way. He offered them to me at cost for what he would pay because my boss does a lot of business with him, and I make herd check EASY for him while he's here. I took him up on the offer, and just had my snarky brat of a vet do a 6 way on my stud, 2 coggins, and 2 rabies. She gave my barn owner SO much attitude about that and the fact I wasn't there (cow emergency as I was walking out the door to get to the appointment, a cow down with an infection is more important than routine vaccines on 2 well behaved horses) I WILL NOT be using her again. She went as far as to ask him 'does she even care about their welfare?'

She charged me: $28 per coggins (400% markup), $30 per rabies (not sure on markup, but I remember my herd vet saying she raked me for 350% on that), and $73 for the 6 way (only a 200% markup on that though) PLUS a $40 call charge (less than 10 miles). It came to $40 a needle poke by the time she was done, the whole thing took her less than an hour, and she STILL had the ovaries to complain she didn't get to charge me everything she could have and tried to appeal to my board owner to let her do it anyway and charge me because 'we didn't care about the horses if we didn't.' If I got paid $40 a needle poke, not only would I be LOADED (I give over 100 shots per week at work.... Vaccines and otherwise) but I wouldn't be freaking complaining! Greedy greedy greedy!

My herd vet charges $185 an hour - no matter what he's doing. Whether it's cranking a calf out, doing a surgery, or simple preg checks and consulting. My former horse vet nickeled and dimed the crap out of me and it came out to about the same. My herd vet has a great view on animal health industry and a ton of good stories about other greedy vets. I know vets are people too, but sorry, I put people that are responsible for my health and my animal's health on a higher pedestal than everybody else. They aren't cheap and most live pretty darn well to being with - don't you dare be trying to rake me for an extra $200 in vaccines fluffy doesn't even need and have the 'reasoning' behind it be 'You don't care if you don't.'

We do all our vaccines ourselves on cattle and now Im doing most of them on my horses because the risk of reaction is SO LOW - and blown WAY out of proportion on the internet. Out of the 3000+ vaccines I give a year, we have had 5ish abcess up maybe ? Nothing remotely close to life threatening that's for sure. The abcesses are even just because the new guy used a 1.5" needle instead of a 3/4" one for SubQ vaccines and put them IM instead. Even that wasn't all too dramatic.

With my profession (Im in every auction house, sale barn, feedlot, etc who knows what I bring home!), my barn being SO close to a racetrack that was shut down last summer because of equine herpes virus, and my show schedule my guys are vaccinated heavily - and they're all sure as heck vaccinated for rabies and anything else I can catch! Would I be vaccinating as heavily if they were pasture puffs and I worked an office job? Oh no. Do I agree most horses are over vaccinated? maybe. However, I stand firm that every pasture puff even should be vaccinated for rabies. It's too scary for the humans that have to handle it should he contract it not to have him vaccinated.

 

Regarding a woman that I mentor for Falabellas that has been putting a unique herd of Falabellas together for the past year and vaccinations"

This woman recently purchased 3 mares in foal from an "established" farm, and the owner "threw in" a Falabella 2 year old mare, since she "had a hard start" and was underweight. Little did we know. This was an established farm that I would not usually recommend purchasing from, however, the "price was right" and the woman wanted to purchase 3 mares. I knew the mares, and felt the mares would be "sound" and maybe the 2 year old had a hard time, but I was sure this lady could bring this little girl around.

After the first foal hit the ground with major problems, a second mare foaled a stillborn about 2 weeks later, I had her call her local vet for an analysis of what was happening, since I was viewing everything "long distance". We were advised by the vet that both mares had Rhino, and she diagnosed the third with Rhino, as well as the 2 year old. On contacting the prior owner, my friend was told that they didn't vaccinate any horses on their farm EVER, nor did they do any floating of teeth. The two year old upon leaving the shipping truck arrived with full, thick green snot from both nostrils, and was almost "dead" upon shipping arrival.

The vet diagnosed all three purchased mares in foal and the 2 year old with Rhino - as they had never been vaccinated the entire time on this farm. The first foal is suffering from problems associated with Rhino and may never be able to be sold, and the second foal was born dead -- from what the vet could tell, the foal had died in utero at least 3 days prior to birthing. The vet immediately gave the last mare Pneumabort, and the 2 year old filly was also given the same.

Upon further investigation, the 2 year old Falabella mare was diagnosed with a full fracture of her facial bones, which has led to problems related to stagnant fluids in her nasal cavities which was causing the infection in her sinuses.

I believe in giving a 5-way (or 4-way) vaccination to all horses, regardless of what the side effects are. Here in Florida, we also give West Nile shots because of the mosquito problem here in the summer. I know some vaccinations have side effects, but I believe a yearly booster is worth the risk, especially if you are breeding mares for offspring. I've always given Pnemabort to all mares and regular Rhino to all the boys annually, and have never experienced a problem related to vaccinations. I only did additional vaccinations for Strangles on the horses that I sent out for showing, and never have given Rabies or tetnus in all my years. But I've never had a problem with either.

I believe in good dental care for the horses, and an evaluation of even youngsters for dental care. This was an established Falabella farm, and these horses were in horrid condition. I don't believe in "over vaccinating" anything that is "possible", but I do believe in annual "boosters" for the most common of horse illnesses.

JMHO ~~ Diane of Castle Rock

 

[amysue]

I vaccinate all of my horses for Rabies annually because it is state law where I live. Plus with cows on the property we have two silos full of corn silage wich brings in a LOT of raccoons so better safe than sorry. My broodmares get their ehv shots during pregnancy and a five way about 6 weeks before foaling so foals will be due (and get done) at six months when sold. The show and breeding animals who are at risk of exposure get 6way shots once a year and everyone gets wnv as it has been reported to have infected horses in my area several times last year and I have a swamp on the property. I wish the research was utd as my donkeys get vaccinated but legally its not valid as the effectiveness of the vaccination has not been studied in donkeys. If one of mine got a suspicious bite or bit a person, they'd get quarantined until cleared. I also can't believe the prices of vaccines. It seems the price has skyrocketed recently. While we're on the subject of cost...Its over $60 for a coggins test here and $30 for a rabies shot. Not to mention a $50 farm call charge. I vaccinate my whole herd at once and get a herd discount so i only pay $16 per horse. What kind of markup is that if they do it that cheap? I dont get the rules with coggins papers either. If you only need a coggins within the calendar year (all thats required for many shows here) how can that paper guarantee the horse is not infected after the blood was drawn? Even sale horses needing a 30-60 day coggins...how many sale barns and auction houses have they been through in that time? How many horses have they come into contact with? How many times could they have been exposed?. If the test was less expensive more people would keep up on it.

 

[sfmini]

We vaccinate ourselves, and one downside to that is making decisions based on not hearing about outbreaks. We thought West Nile had died down and didn't do them. We paid a big price, lost this gorgeous arab mare, our last big horse only 8 years old.

 

So sorry for your loss. She was beautiful!

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I sympathize with owners frustrations about fees. Most owners aren't familiar with the business end of the Veterinary Industry so fees seem very inflated over perceived costs.

Nationwide the cost to provide a good/service to a client is >$19.55 BEFORE the expense of the good or service is added on. So...if it costs $7/coggins then Vets must charge $26.55 to just break even.

Nationwide the cost of drugs should be 18-22% of gross income. So every time we sell a drug under 4 times it's cost then we need to make that up in charging for services. As clients won't accept a 4-5 times mark up on vaccines, then vaccination visits are poor net profit generators and tend to be break even at best.

Maybe some day equine and small animal Vets will go the route of large animal Vets and charge by the hour, but the rate will likely be much higher as equine and small animal Vets have less billable time the large animal Vets.

Dr. Taylor

 

[Gone_Riding]

I give the shots myself, except for the rabies shot which my state will not allow. (Which is weird, because some states allow a person to give their own rabies shot.) I give my minis a 4-way and my big horse a 5-way. I don't remember why. I had researched it last year and it was the right thing for me. I used to think more is better. Now, I don't give a shot for something that I don't have to worry about: Aka the one for pregnant mares when I'm not breeding a horse.

My dog gets a shot every three years and I've noticed that the vets around me are going that route now. I've been doing it that way for 10 years due to a recommendation by Washington State University's canine research.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I think a lot depends on where one lives and what one does with his horses.

My horses are pretty restricted; I do not feel they are at risk for many things. Only 1 other horse within 1/2 mile. I do think about rabies, as we have wildlife. I might continue to do rabies shots, but that is the only one. No more tetanus. I've never done any of the other vaccinations.

If we have a climate change, or some other significant change, I might reconsider. I think the chances of something bad happening due to over vaccinating are greater than my horses contracting the diseases.

My vet even wants me to do the rattlesnake vaccination--which is probably our greatest threat here. But I don't trust them. I appreciate him telling me about the option, however.

I know it is a thought-provoking topic.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I trust my vet. I know the business end of her costs and trust me, there are vets out there cutting it as close as they can and still getting yelled at for the pricing. Then on the other hand, there are vets that are just in it for the money and over charge for everything and don't care about the animal as much as they care about making a buck. It is sad that decent vets get a bad rap for those vets that are raking folks over the coals. I can tell stories from both sides. My small animal vet is amazing. Her philosophy is that if she over charges for things that she will have folks cutting corners and not treating dogs with things she thinks has value for the dogs health. She says "If I charge too much for this, I wont be able to get people to use it". She is in it for the animals.

My horse vet is very reasonable but it is a teaching hospital and for that decent pricing you must be patient with student vets doing work on your animals. On occasion this can bite you in the butt but for the most part it has worked good for me.

Gotta run. I will write more later .. will think on this thought provoking topic. Glad Dr. Taylor wrote in... nice to have a vet here on the forum to comment