Voter ID Laws -- Your Thoughts? (POLL & DISCUSSION)

[Carriage]

Also an emphatic yes to both I.D. and Citizenship.

That takes care of one facet, but what about the rest of that particular, and very flawed, diamond?

How do you "Vote the bums out!" when the vote is not secure? I've asked this question for years and have yet to receive a logical answer, much less an answer. Let me save time by giving the answer, You don't.

However there is an exquisitely simple and cheap way to do so........... It's very old tech with a twist that has never been tried to my knowledge...............

 

[ohmt]

From my research the only known voting fraud has cone from absentee ballots and not checking on recently released criminals (in my state). I'm not sure why people think there is all this crazy amount of voting fraud going on. Maybe i'm missing something though, that often happens This bill will not stop any of the voting fraud i've mentioned above, the real problem. I don't think these voting laws popping up all at the same time in several states are going to solve anything. You would only need an id to register, not to vote. What is the purpose of it then? How about a voting bill that actually solves some voting fraud problems. It also removes "vouching" where a person can vouch for you that you do live where you live. My mother vouched for me in 2008 when we first moved. Without that I would not have voted. I am not against proving citizenship to vote, I just think these bills are a waste of money. Not solving anything. I want a law that makes it so you need to show a social security card or birth certificate and an id AT VOTING TIME.

 

[Jill]

Amanda, why some of us worry about voter fraud -- here are some reasons: ACORN, Acorn, & Acorn, Hundreds of dead voters (NC and elsewhere), recent revalations in upstate NY, the Indiana mess overwhich Butch Morgan resigned, ETC.

When I went to vote last time, I was asked for my ID. I think I've been asked each time in the past, but was specifically interested in the logistics this time so was waiting to see if I was asked. When I was, I said "I'm glad you asked me." ... It was even better than getting carded when I order a drink (FYI any people who are waitresses and waiters -- ask a 40-something woman for her ID if you want a better tip!)

I would like ID to be required not just to register, but, as I was asked to do, at the polling facility as well. Can't think of a single good reason NOT to be required to produce valid ID.

AND, I do not mean to stir the pot, but I feel like the elephant in the room here are the "undocumented democrats". That is part of the problem, and like most catch phrases, has a basis in real life situations.

 

[ohmt]

Yes, yes-i hear so much about undocumented democrats voting, but rarely the actual problem of absentee ballot fraud and the recently released criminals not being watched. Since this is a state to state issue, in mine (MN), those are the problems and this voting id law will do absolutely nothing to fix those. I want a voting id law that actually does something instead of spending millions on nothing.

 

[ohmt]

Jill-great tip on asking for id for drinks

When I worked at a restaurant in high school, it was mandatory to get an id for all alcohol, no matter what age the person looked. Most women loved that

Men, not so much. Ok, off topic!

 

[Jill]

I'm with you, Amanda, on the ID's for voting and oh, yes... I love it when I get carded. Strangly, it happens less and less often. Go figure

 

[andi]

Now see, I didn't think that "undocumented democrats" are really the elephant in the room. That is exactly what I mentioned previously, illegal minorities who support liberals/democrats.

I think when you bring that to the forefront, you expose some peoples motivation to stop illegal immigrants from voting. In actuality it has less to do with them being illegal and more to do with who they are voting for. It cheapens the whole argument and is makes those against the law have a great "slogan" to throw in our faces. It should never be about whom they are voting for; it should be about them voting at all, democrat or conservative.

To put it in perspective, I have protested horses’ heights in the past. I did it because the horse was too tall, not because it beat me. Many of them I never even showed against. If I did it cause they beat me that would be WRONG. I would assume most people would agree. To take it a step further, I get the most frustrated when people "belittle" what I did, saying it was OK and supporting me, but doubt or question my motives. Honestly, your “support” means NOTHING to me if you don’t agree with why I did it and in this voting case, vise versa.

 

[Jill]

We each make it through life deciding what is and is not meaningful to us and form our own perspectives. I don't have a problem with the term undocumented democrat and feel it is spot on. The Democrats are the party of expanding government entitlements, the leaders on the left side of the aisle are the the ones who are lax on immigration and who reject Voter ID regulations.

While I agree with the scenario you outline in your last paragraph, I don't find a pparallel between what you described and the relationship between the problems of voter fraud and undocumented democrats. I don't see the aalignment but obviously you feel it relates. That's fine and that's what makes us all our own people.

There's nothing wrong with slogans and a lot of times, the reason they catch on is that they hit the mark so closely. Just because an expression has become a popular political bullet doesn't mean it's not also a valid personal point of view..

 

[andi]

The relation of the two stories is simple. It is admiral to speak up when someone cheats, but not if it is just a means to stop them from beating you. You speak up on the principal, not use it as a "back door" way to beat someone. That applies easily to both these situations, voter fraud is cheating, showing horses to tall is cheating. Being an incredible horse is not cheating, being a democrat is not cheating. The impure motives are removing a horse you couldn't beat ( the oversize incredible horse) , or removing someone who you couldnt get to vote "with you" ( undocumented Democrat).

The idea is some want to get rid of the oversize horse, more because it is incredible, and the illegal citizen, more because "it" is a democrat.

I agree that most slogans and even stereotypes are based somewhat in truth and can hit close to the mark. The idea of "Undocumented Democrats" has just as much truth, and manipultion of truth, as the comments saying you are a Racist if you against voter ID's.

 

[andi]

I wanted to carlify,

"The idea is some want to get rid of the oversize horse, more because it is incredible, and the illegal citizen, more because "it" is a democrat. "

I used the word "more", but what I mean is those should not be the motive AT ALL. The moment you realize or admit that those are part of your motive you lose a substantial amount of credibility.

 

[ozymandias]

Let go one step further than illegals voting. How about them being here ILLEGALLY and taking OUR jobs.

This is a quote...

According to Bear Stearns:

• The illegal alien population of the U.S. is about 20 million - roughly the population of New York State.
  
• Between 4 and 6 million jobs have shifted to the underground economy since 1990. These are not "jobs Americans won't do, but rather jobs Americans used to do.
  
• On the revenue side, the United States may be foregoing $35 billion a year in income tax collections because of the number of jobs that are now off the books.
  
• There are approximately 5 million illegal workers who are collecting wages on a cash basis and are avoiding both income and FICA taxes
  

 

[Jill]

The job situation, from all aspects, is very upsetting, Oz...

Here's an article from this past week about the continued efforts to make the illegal legal:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/04/dhs-to-grant-illegal-aliens-unlawful-presence-waivers/

 

[andi]

For me, when I look at this whole immigration issue, my first question is always. WHY DON'T THEY BECOME LEGAL?? We are all so angry, that they are feeding off the system and voting illegaly. If this country is so great, and they are doing great over here, why dont they just become legal. So far, from what I have read, a LARGE percentage of Illegal Immigrants PAY TAXES. Tad ID numbers are issued to these people, their employers file W2's, but importantly, most do not file for a return like the rest of us for fear of being caught. They do pay in.

Don't get me wrong, I am for checking id's and deporting, but honestly, the first question should be, why is it so hard or these people to become legal?

 

[ozymandias]

James,

when my family came here from Britain some 40 years ago it was very very difficult to get in. Each country has quotas as to how many folks the USA allows to get green cards each year. Out of those few (the year I came it was 20,000 total) people with direct relatives like parents of children were on the top of the list. After that for the few places left you needed to have one of the "jobs on the list" or they wouldn't look at you...highly skilled jobs like surgeons etc. Then you had to pass background and medical checks etc. There was one lady at the American Embassy in London the day we went for out interview who had been on the list for 20 years working her way up! In Britain it was called "The Brain Drain" because the top talent was leaving. There are a number of people allowed in without the educational requirements if they are in a refugee or similar situation. But I'll tell you one thing...there wasn't ANYONE who would have dreampt of coming here illegally without following the US's strict immigration laws. That's why so many legally admitted immigrants are so against the illegals who love to say they're not criminals - but they ARE, because while everyone else worldwide follows the rules, there are some who think those laws don't apply to them.

Take my cousin, he's the head chemical engineer for the Distillers company - a massive company (I believe they own Burger King too) . He travels all over the world for his company. He has 3 degrees from one of the worlds top universities and of course a Masters. He's an asset to his country and he'd cut off both legs to be able to live here but he can't because his job isn't important enough to be allowed to come. Yet someone with no skills at all thinks it's okay to break into our country like you break into someones home and come here and live - because they want to and to heck with the laws everyone else follows.

Okay off my soap box lol

 

[Riverrose28]

sorry but the term illegal democrates sounds prejudice to me, fraud is all across the board! My daughter in law came to this country from her birth land of South Africa, she is an English citizen, she was here on a visa to continue her education. She met my son, they got married and now have two children. She works here, pays taxes, pays for health care, car ins. and has a drivers license, but doesn't vote. I think it would take more then just an ID like a drivers license to prove citizenship of our great country. By the way we all need to and should come together and try to be nice when posting, please!

 

[andi]

I think the information you just shared is sooo important to get out there Ozy. Being born here, I have never really "grasped" or fully appreciated the idea that living in America is "off limits" to someone. I figured the biggest obstacle should be getting here and getting "established", finding a home or job, when you don't know anybody. I don't disagree at all with your thoughts and frustrations. If the laws are in place they should be enforced, and those who are following them and watching others abuse them should be infuriated.

I think where it gets very complicated is trying to decide if our "human rights" are something we are born with and "entitled" to or something we can have given or taken away by the country we live in by their laws. In a perfect world I think everyone should be given the option of living in the country of their choice, but how do you keep a sustainable economy with such an unstable workforce.

One thing I read researching was that Illegal Immigrants are not a "drain" on the American economy as a whole. By the numbers, they contribute more than they take. BUT, and this is a big BUT, they contribute to the Federal Gov and take from the State Level. So for the people making the laws about illegals, the federal government, they WANT them in the country. For example, an illegal may pay $10 in taxed and only use $5 in services. But those $10 dollars are payed to the federal government, and they use $5 of local government funded services. This could be a MAJOR motivator for why "big government" seems to be ok with the idea of "allowing" illegal citizens.

Hmm, I wonder what RP's solution is?

 

[andi]

 

[ozymandias]

By the way we all need to and should come together and try to be nice when posting, please!

I think I missed something...who's not being nice?

 

[ozymandias]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM

THANK YOU James! I started posting on this thread with the 'tude that I wasn't going to be voting this year....I think I've changed mt mind

I didn't realize just how aligned RP's ideals are with my own.

He has some brilliant suggestions in that clip. I'd go one step further and make sure that the allotted numbers of immigrants allowed in each year can change according to our economic status at the time. For instance it's easier to integrate 100,000 new people (plus the 2.9 million graduating High Schooler's each year) into the economy during years of economic growth than it is during a recession or depression.

 

[Jill]

It looks like a couple people voted NO to "Do You Think US Voters Should Be Required To Present Valid ID In Order To Vote?" I'm interested to know the why behind that feeling, if they would like to share.