Warmblood Mare pullling under saddle...

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rhea

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Welll, last September I bought a 3 year old Canadian Warmblood mare, who is "well broke" and had some good show results. Got her home and...well...we didn't really hit it off. One of the worst problems I have with her is undersaddle: I'm 5'1" and don't weight 100# soaking wet. She is now a four year old, 16.0hh warmblood mare with attitude. She has gotten into the habit of when she doesn't want to work with me anymore, she'll start pulling and pulling on me, which gets me off balance, which is when she usually tries to run away with me (We don't have a riding ring right now - long story, suffice it to say there's no possible way to get one til spring) I do have a prof. coach, and she says to bend her arround my inside leg and flex whenever she tries, which works sometimes, but othertimes she'll just run from my inside leg, pop her shoulder out and keep her head down. She's hopefully going to work at a prof. trainers in December until April, but for now I would love to be able to ride her without dislocating my shoulders. Anyone have any ideas?? She's an amazing mare, and I'd rather not sell her until all my options are exhausted. My coach doesn't think she's too much horse for me, but I find it isn't very enjoyable to ride her right now. I've trained lots of ponies from scratch, so I was truly stupid and thought I could finish this mare,
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Other people have ridden her (all who weigh more then me), and all say she really reacts to weight, so I'm a bit lacking on this part. I don't want to get into a pulling match with her. Any ideas so I can just have some fun with her until she leaves? I wasn't sure whether using a hackamore or other bitless bridle would help??? Anyone have any suggestings? Sorry this is long...
 
I dont normally advocate ( actually, this is the first time) going to a 'bigger' bit. But, maybe in this case. She is completely running over you , like you didnt know LOL, and needs those manners back. Since you want a quick fix, I would go to a slightly more severe bit. I have a mare that is very much like that, we call the the Psycho mare. She is sweet 9 times out of ten, but then wham, that 10th time she becomes Hades incarnate.

So , for a short term fix, a bigger bit. For long term she would need to go back to basics, but with you, not another person. Sounds like she may have learned how to push your buttons, or make that, try and pull your arm out of socket
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hope this helps!
 
Before I make any suggestions I need to know one thing--what bit are you using on her now?
 
A bit is only as severe as the hands holding the reins. A plain snaffle can be a very severe bit used incorrectly. That said, I had a similar problem with an extremely well trained show horse and went to a twisted wire snaffle to make it uncomfortable for her to lug on the bit. After a few sessions she decided to let me be the alpha mare and I then went back to the plain snaffle.

I am also a big advocate of giving them some good old hard work to get their minds off silliness and put control back in my court. If she starts pulling and taking your control, then she can just do some lateral moves, side pass, haunch turns, forehand turns. Make her think about what you are asking and then she doesn't have time to think about her agenda. You are also controlling every move she makes and this isn't a very fun game for very long.
 
My big horse Ferrah used to do this all the time.

Everytime Ferrah would lean I would push her forward and do a serpentine, a figure eight, a circle, backing up. It didn't take her long to realize that when she pulled on me, she had to do some hard work. The most important thing I found was using lots of leg and wiggling my fingers on the reins to get her on the bit properly instead of having her drag me around.
 
I had a 18 hand warmblood who was the same way when we got him as well as a 18 hand horse off the track who was young and green and would do the same thing. For me the bit was a huge part of it and I put them both in a pelham I love them and really found they helped in a situation like this although a horse can tend to easily try and get behind the bit. I would ask to if you are wearing spurs? That might be something to try since you are small and she is not really respecting you a bit.

With my warmblood when he started pulling sometimes.. I just decided to go with it and gave him his head let him pull all he wanted rode him on the buckle with tons of leg to push him forward i figured if he wanted to go then he had to do it my way .. it wasnt anywhere near as much fun for him to pull when there was nothing to pull against. This is where hard to say for sure but if you arent wearing spurs they might come in handy to give you the added strength to keep her moving forward. If she wants to "run away" again same thing I would give her her head keep the forward motion and let her go (of course I had the advantage of an arena) running away isnt so fun if you dont have anyone trying to stop you and if you have to keep going when you want to stop

I didnt always give in to his pulling but ... by him not knowing how i would react it seemed to help cause there was always the chance i would say you wanna run then run and keep running and then we can finish our normal work out

I agree that you dont want to give up on her just yet if she can go to a trainer.. and you have a shot at riding her in a arena just till you get thru this
 
Lisa you beat me to it!! This is EXACTLY what I would do- I'm actually behind you both in weight and in height and I have ridden seriously big horses all my life. Just give her her head and let her try pulling an "empty" bridle!! I especially used to like getting the horse into a nice lazy open circle and then letting go- be prepared for her to stumble!!! WEAR A HELMET- and a body protector- one of the reasons I cannot ride now is that I did not!!!!!!! I would have her in a straight bar Pelham or, if you can use double reins properly, a double bridle - I have not ever had a horse able to take hold in a double bridle as you just keep swapping the rein
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I would also advocate a small, "dummy" spur- I wore them and I am NOT an advocate of spurs at all, but, when your legs hardly clear the saddle flap, you do need a little "extra"!!
 
I just wanted to add I am not a spur fan either especially those big ol hunkin cowboy spurs but I can use and have used english spurs to give some oopmh to your leg when needed
 
Just a note on spurs. We are not coming out of a bucking shoot with 6 inch rowels expecting miracles. In my opinion spurs should be worn as cueing aids only and an extension of our legs.
 
I think a lot of what you do depends on what dicipline(s) you have in mind for her. If she is a dressage prospect, I would not go to a stronger bit or double bridle. You can't use them at lower levels. I'm not a bit fan of putting more metal in the mouth without trying a few other things first in any discipline.

It also depends on what kind of pulling she's doing when she's pulling you up out of your seat. Is she pulling to go faster initially? or is she just leaning on the bit? If she's just getting heavy on you and leaning on the bit, I agree with lots of long walks and trots on the buckle. When you take the bit back up you'll need lots of leg and half-halts to shift her balance and engage her hind end. Also when she goes to pull, letting her 'bump' just one side of the bit will be uncomfortable for her. In otherwords, when she pulls, give one rein only.

If she's running away, you'll need lots of one on one time with a good trainer. It's tough having a young energetic horse, and not having a ring to work her in. Will you be able to ride her while she's at the trainer's place and get some pointers?

I think that a lot of young horsess, dressage horses in particular, get quite sour at endless circles. I've found that enthusiastic hacks a few times a week really helps when you have to get back to the arena. But if you have problems controlling her, that may not be safe for you. Also adding some variety to those necessary arena sessions could help. Some trot poles or raised cavaletti will help her to come up off the bit, shift her center of gravity and engage the back end. My trainer told me (back in my DQ days) that a horse with a problem up front is really a horse with a problem behind.

What it really comes down to though is keeping yourself safe. It might just be best to hang out the next couple of weeks until she goes off to school.

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If your mare is running off with you (or trying to) she is not trained, and not safe. I would have serious doubts about any trainer who allowed someone to continue riding an unsafe horse. If I were in your situation I would send this horse to a professional now, or let it be until I had a safe place to work. Your safety is THE most important thing.

That said, you said you like this mare and want to continue to ride her so...

About the popping out the shoulder to evade you, next time you try to turn or bend your mare watch what you do with your hands. I'm not saying that you do this, but many people find it natural to give the outside rein a few more inches, or even let it go slack. This makes it very easy for the horse to just "fall" to the outside rather than work.

Don't tense your outside rein when you turn, but try keeping the exact same degree of contact that you are already using. If you mare tries to fall to the outside then she will tense the rein - sort of like a stop sign for bowing the neck out and leaning the shoulder.

Good Luck and Stay Safe!
 
You will NEVER win a tug of war with a horse so stop playing. By setting your hands your giving her something to lean on.

Half halts, start lightly. If she doesn't respond make them gradually more forceful until she lightens up. Make sure you continue to drive her forward with seat and legs.

I wouldn't go with a more severe bit, plain ole snaffle.
 
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Some things I learned this summer when I was counseling at a horsemanship camp:

Don't pull back on the rein, but pull UP on it instead. Raise your hand in the air to get the pull as vertical as you can. Do this with one rein which will cause her to bend/disengage her hindquarters. She won't be able to run off or pull against you like this. Keep her circling until she really gives to the bit and her feet have stopped moving.

I hope you can get her straightened out. Remember that the goal should be to not only control her body, but to control her mind. That is what true horsemanship is. You want her to do things because she wants to do them not because she has to do them. It sounds to me like this horse doesn't care right now what you want because she wants to do something else. In other words, you lack clear communication. I don't think a different bit is what you need; I think you need to go back to the basics of giving to pressure and being attentive to you. I would suggest some groundwork even to establish these things.
 
I have been waiting to see what kind of bit you currently have her in as well, but did some thinking and wanted to give you what both myself and my two sister trainers typically do when this crops up in our clients horses.

Typically when we have a young horse do something like this, it's because they are either bored, tired, unbalanced, or have gotten into a habit.

The suggestions already put forth by the others are, as usual, excllent idea's, and I would run through the gauntlet of them, one at a time, on seperate days, and find what works. If she is truly bolting and not just being "heavy", then IMO, restart her totally. As if she never had had a halter on even. That tends to be a trust issue, and can be Very dangerous as others have mentioned. However it sounds like she just hates using her hind end, and has discoverd she's bigger then you, and has gotten into the habit of leaning on her front endwith you as a crutch. (Which stinks.)

First off, get the nubby spurs, they will be Very useful for surprising her foward or off your leg, (and therefore out of the shoulder slid )

The half halt exercise outlined above by Whitney, is a wonderful one, but make sure when you half halt that you belly button come back to meet your spinal cord, (and when I say this I don't mean suck it in like your getting back into your old skinny jeans, (Your Shoulders Should Not rise when you do this, if they do, you are doing it wrong) instead think of your stomach comming "back", it should feel a bit like you are sinking down in your saddle if done properly, to check, sit on your hands in your saddle with someone holding your mare, and try different ways of pulling in your stomach muscles, until you feel your saet bones sink into your hands. To get an idea of what this weight Should feel like, while sitting on your hands, make yourself laugh, your diapharam will push those muscles down, and increase the weight. This is what you wantto do, minus the goofy cackling up on your horse.)

While doing this, make sure your lower back is Very still,(Imangin wearing a corset, a Very tight one) and that your inner thighs are also "freezing".

You want to convey No motion at all so as to Stop the motion in her back. Remember, despite your size, you are Sitting on her spinal colum, and if you truly freeze, so will she have too. (So think hips, back, stomach, thighs, shoulders, frozen. And look Up not down.) And when she does, Reward like crazy, happy silly voice, pats, maybe a walk doing nothing for a second, Anything to drive home that listening to your body was a great idea on her part.

The oppsite is true as well, when you walk think of all the motion going through your hips, not your stomach, and start to get her used to listning to your bodys signals and not so much your hands. After she stops easily at the walk with a continued half halt, (And make sure she stops with her head slightly on the bit, Not up in the air with her back all stung out behind her, you are trying to get her to use herself, not your hands. )

Then proceed to the trot work. Sitting trot, with about 5-10 steps trot, then walk then halt. Shorten this exercise down till you can go 3 steps trot, walk, halt, then trot off again. Then mix it up, keep her guessing. Trot 5 steps, halt, turn, trot 3 steps walk, etc. Make sure your outside leg is right there to catch that shoulder when it goes sliding, a smart tap foward of the girth should open her eyes to your new found friend the spur.
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The idea is to keep her in her hind end. Your reins should be realitivly loose once she is listining to your body, in the beginning you may need a shorter one for both your safty, and to get your point accross.

All reins are is a place for your hands to go, since they'd look goofy in your pockets.
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Your body does the real work, and here, your height may auctually help as short bodied ppl tend to have stronger and shorter backs, which makes it easier to immbolize.

If she goes to turn to soon or evade, use your thighs as a channel to keep her straight, and when she goes to pull, either just give her one, or none, or better yet, half halt/stop her totally, so that she can't fall foward into her forhand and yank on you.

Could you post a picture of her? If she's naturally a downhill horse,(For example a bulldog or cow bred QH, they tend to be butt high, and built for facing off with cows, the neck ties in lower, and they tend to have very big forearms to support the build) your work may be harder, but if she's an uphill built horse, (think Arab, super high neck set, flat croup, relativily leggy and evenly muscled on both the foreend and hindquarters) you shouln't have a huge problem once she gets the gist of things.

Whew that's long. Sorry for the length, and if I missed something or wasn't clear enough on something you can pm me or ask here. Hope this helps, we have had that problem alot with many of out clients young stock, (the PMU foals are very popular down here as well) and this has worked very well on the babies who had your mares habit.

Whitney

P.S >All my horses, from school ponies and up, will stop dead at a 'frozen' body, turn with your slightest direction from your body, and collect to a loose rein. Check out Mary Wanless, and Jean Luc Cornelle. I have ridden in lots and lots of Trainers clinics with both, and they have excllent books out there for problem youngsters.

Also I will try and get some pictures in the next day or two to illustrate if you or anyone else would like.
 
Whitney;

Describing the 'feel' of a half-halt is so difficult, and you made it really understandable! When I first started taking dressage lessons, I asked a trainer to please describe a half-halt, because I didn't think I was doing it right. His answer was (and I'm not kidding) "Well, you know, you just, MMMPH, half-halt." I spent the next 3 months trotting around grunting "MMMPH". The closest I've come to being able to describe it is the feeling of being a passenger in a car when the brakes are applied quite firmly. Sort of the same muscle feeling.

Reading all of these posts really makes me miss being up on a big horse. It's the coming down part I don't miss so much.
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Hi Keeperof the horses,

Thank you for the compliment, though, I can't take any credit for the explination, (that's how I was finally taught the correct way to do a half halt) it's nice when someone gets benifit from what I learned.

LoL Yup that sounds like a typical male riding instructor. Men have a tendency to do things without thinking or processing,(Unlike us ultra think-to-much women) they just figure it out and Do it without much introspective thought. So when confronted on How they got somewhere with something, they'll say the very last thing they can remember doing, which really doesn't help. (Like for example say I want to do "Z", but haven't yet figured out the steps "x" and "y",

Many male coaches when asked to explain how they Got to Z will stop and think, and then usually get annoyed and go, well Just do Z, that's all there is to is Gosh, and act like you're a huge moron.
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You should have seen how long it took me to figure out how to get my mare to do tempi changes with my old coach, it was like riding a jack in the box, I could never get consistant results because I had No clue what I was doing...)

Plus men's pelvic area is designed much differently then us ladies,(Straighter with out our shaply curves, giving them a true advantage) so even if they Could explain to you, it may be a bit off. LoL can you tell I am a riding instructor or what?
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Sorry for the long ramble, I am trying to not study for a test, and this is providing a great distraction.
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Thanks a lot everyone for your input
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I currently have a full-cheek french link snaffle in her mouth. I'll have to check and see what we have in our tackroom considering changing the bit...I *think* we have all snaffles except for a kimberwick.

There's not a set dicipline for her yet - if she can jump well and enjoys it she'll probably go into hunter/jumper, if not we'll see how she likes dressage. She's the kind of mare who could do anything which is why I'd love to make this work
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As to the question whether I'll be working with the horse and the trainer, definately. I want to go out when I can and so he can work with both of us on how to get along better
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I do have spurs that I've worn on occaision (never with her) but that's an interesting idea...I'll definately have to try that too.

Thanks everyone for all your ideas! I'll try 'em out and see what's mutually agreeable for both of us
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I totally agree with your coach about the bending too and Lisa and Fizz. Try a pelham or a kimberwick too which has some good curb action to it. Helmut on and let her go and get over herself. Hackamore, no way. No.
 

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