What pinto gene does he carry??

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I want to have my Miniature Horse stallion tested for pinto genes, because he has a blaze and one blue eye. I was thinking LWO, but looking at this foal photo, I'm wondering if maybe he carries sabino or splash white?? He produced a bay appaloosa roan filly with a snip out of a solid bay non-appy mare this year, and a black filly with light roaning, and one dark spot, and blueish eyes (they are not ice blue like his) out of a black appy bred mare. Would it make sense to test him for both LWO and sabino?

Here's the foal photo

More photos of him on this page:

www.crayonboxminiatures.com/Bingo

 

[love_casper]

The blue eye either means splash or frame, probably frame. the snip would most likely be sabino, since it goes under his chin, but it's off-centered-ness could mean splash as well.

So i'll say he carries LWO (definately test him), sabino, and probably splash too. especially since he had that one baby with the snip...one isolated snip on the nose is usually an indicator of splash. as of yet there isn't a test for splash, but i bet he has it.

 

[CJMM6]

This is very interesting. :lol: He doesn't look like he has pinto in him. I think Appys can have white on their face & I think they can have blue eyes.

Does blue eyes & white on the face always indicate Pinto??

I raise pintos, but there is no question about it, they are all pinto marked. I will be anixious to learn more about this

: cjmm

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No, Appy's cannot have white on the face without Pinto being present in some form.

White sock, face white etc are all believed to be minimal something- usually Sabino but in this case, as there is no leg white, I would test for Frame as it is easy and essential as you will be breeding to mares that may also be minimal Pintos.

 

[Songcatcher]

The theory is that there are many different Sabino genes. At present, there is only one that there is a test for. Personally, I don't think it is worth the $25 to test for it as a horse may test negative even though it has obvious Sabino characteristics.

I would suspect Splash (which as mentioned there is no test for) but would test for LWO just to be safe.

 

[Flaxenacres]

Yes Appaloosas can have blue eyes and white faces and even bald faces! I have bred and showed Apppaloosas ever since I was 13 yrs old, and that is many years! But there can be many veriations with alot of white on the face. I had a gelding with a half bald face and a blue eye,and I know that there was definatly no paint in there.It all depends on were the pigmentation is or is'nt.

 

[Dona]

Yes Appaloosas can have blue eyes and white faces and even bald faces! I have bred and showed Apppaloosas ever since I was 13 yrs old, and that is many years! But there can be many veriations with alot of white on the face. I had a gelding with a half bald face and a blue eye,and I know that there was definatly no paint in there.It all depends on were the pigmentation is or is'nt.

I respect your opinion

: ......so please don't take offense.

But I wonder....just how do you know for sure there was no "pinto" in the background, since MANY "minimally marked" pinto horses have not been recognized as such, and have been erroneously registrered as "solids" for years.

: If there were any other horses in the background with white markings (even as minimal as a tiny snip or coronet) then they carried the pinto gene.

True white markings (stockings, or facial white) are not Appy "traits". They are Pinto markings...thru & thru. They do NOT just pop up on an otherwise solid horse. It takes a pinto gene for that to happen.

It doesn't surprise me that an Appaloosa breeder doesn't recognize this tho....as even the PAINT breeders considered horses with only facial & leg white as "Solids".

: That is a very old, outdated theory.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sorry, Flaxenacres but you are incorrect.

The Appy pattern does not carry face white or socks etc, these are caused by the presence of Splash or Sabino, and the Appy people just ignore this fact, hence there being no reported Pinto in your lines.

You cannot get blue eyes without Frame or Splash being present (current thinking- it varies, there may be a gene that causes blue eyes spontaneously but it isn't caused by Appy!!)

Therefore if your Blue eyed blaze faced Appy is not tested for Frame I strongly suggest you test him before you get a LWO foal form an untested mare!!

 

[Flaxenacres]

well you can believe that if you want but I know that my Appaloosas have no paint in them! Theese Appaloosa lines come from foundation Appaloosas! And i believe Appaloosas can have face white and stockings and blue eyes. If you read any appaloosa Registry books they are acceptable markings and are registerable. And as picky as the Appaloosa club is if they thought for 1 miniute there was paint in there they would not allow it! So you believe what you want and I will believe what I want! Ater all we are all allowed to our opinion! Lorie

Yes Appaloosas can have blue eyes and white faces and even bald faces! I have bred and showed Apppaloosas ever since I was 13 yrs old, and that is many years! But there can be many veriations with alot of white on the face. I had a gelding with a half bald face and a blue eye,and I know that there was definatly no paint in there.It all depends on were the pigmentation is or is'nt.

I respect your opinion

: ......so please don't take offense.

But I wonder....just how do you know for sure there was no "pinto" in the background, since MANY "minimally marked" pinto horses have not been recognized as such, and have been erroneously registrered as "solids" for years.

: If there were any other horses in the background with white markings (even as minimal as a tiny snip or coronet) then they carried the pinto gene.

True white markings (stockings, or facial white) are not Appy "traits". They are Pinto markings...thru & thru. They do NOT just pop up on an otherwise solid horse. It takes a pinto gene for that to happen.

It doesn't surprise me that an Appaloosa breeder doesn't recognize this tho....as even the PAINT breeders considered horses with only facial & leg white as "Solids".

: That is a very old, outdated theory.

 

[Fred]

I will also add that I too had appys for many many years and the Appaloosa registry does allow face white and stockings [not above the knee however]. I do not belive that a horse with face white has pinto genes. The Appaloosa registry is VERY STRICT in regards to pinto blood. For this reason alone I am not a fan of appaloosas in minis. Too many people crossed anything and everything in regards to color. The Appaloosa is a BREED not a color. By the way MANY other breeds that have NO pinto in them also have face white.

 

[Flaxenacres]

Fred, Thank You Very much! Lorie

uote name='Flaxenacres' date='Jun 23 2007, 09:26 AM' post='836609']

well you can believe that if you want but I know that my Appaloosas have no paint in them! Theese Appaloosa lines come from foundation Appaloosas! And i believe Appaloosas can have face white and stockings and blue eyes. If you read any appaloosa Registry books they are acceptable markings and are registerable. And as picky as the Appaloosa club is if they thought for 1 miniute there was paint in there they would not allow it! So you believe what you want and I will believe what I want! Ater all we are all allowed to our opinion! Lorie

Yes Appaloosas can have blue eyes and white faces and even bald faces! I have bred and showed Apppaloosas ever since I was 13 yrs old, and that is many years! But there can be many veriations with alot of white on the face. I had a gelding with a half bald face and a blue eye,and I know that there was definatly no paint in there.It all depends on were the pigmentation is or is'nt.

I respect your opinion

: ......so please don't take offense.

But I wonder....just how do you know for sure there was no "pinto" in the background, since MANY "minimally marked" pinto horses have not been recognized as such, and have been erroneously registrered as "solids" for years.

: If there were any other horses in the background with white markings (even as minimal as a tiny snip or coronet) then they carried the pinto gene.

True white markings (stockings, or facial white) are not Appy "traits". They are Pinto markings...thru & thru. They do NOT just pop up on an otherwise solid horse. It takes a pinto gene for that to happen.

It doesn't surprise me that an Appaloosa breeder doesn't recognize this tho....as even the PAINT breeders considered horses with only facial & leg white as "Solids".

: That is a very old, outdated theory.

 

[Songcatcher]

The Appaloosa is a BREED not a color.

I must disagree with this statement. When you breed two Arabs together, you get an Arab. When you breed two Morgans together, you get a Morgan. When you breed two Shetlands together, you get a Shetland. BUT, when you breed two Appaloosas together, you don't necessarily get an Appaloosa. Appaloosa is a pattern (or multiple patterns) which can be bred into any crossbred horse, just as Pinto can.

Be careful breeding those Appaloosas with face white, leg white, and blue eyes. You just may end up with a Pinto foal which they will not let you register.

 

[ohmt]

I'm a little confused....if any facial marking was considered some sort of splash overo marking then I've got a whole herd of them. I don't understand how the blue eyes and the facial markings mean that it HAS to have some sort of pinto. I have a an appy fillly with a strip and a half blue eye by a few spot stallion and an appy mare and I GARAUNTEE that no matter how many times she was bred to a solid she would never ever produce pinto or splash overo. I've found that a lot of appys have blue eyes. Maybe in pintos it can mean that there is some sort of overo 'something' peeking through but I don't think that's the case in appys. I have too many with solid appy going back for 5 generations without any pinto that have one blue eye or a big blaze or some sort of white marking. Of course there is a chance I could be wrong...but I still say appys can have facial white and blue eyes without being pinto or overo.

 

[Flaxenacres]

Appaloosa is a breed and you can have solids! That is why they have to be blood typed to be registered! yes they are a color breed, but like all other colors if you dont have a homozygous you can get solid! And alot of times they will color out later with age! And when you breed an Appaloosa To Appaloosa You do get Appaloosa. But in the minis their are so many crosses that you are liable to get anything! Lorie

The Appaloosa is a BREED not a color.

I must disagree with this statement. When you breed two Arabs together, you get an Arab. When you breed two Morgans together, you get a Morgan. When you breed two Shetlands together, you get a Shetland. BUT, when you breed two Appaloosas together, you don't necessarily get an Appaloosa. Appaloosa is a pattern (or multiple patterns) which can be bred into any crossbred horse, just as Pinto can.

Be careful breeding those Appaloosas with face white, leg white, and blue eyes. You just may end up with a Pinto foal which they will not let you register.

 

[love_casper]

oh my gosh here we go again.

:

this always comes up when you have people that believe there is some non-pinto gene that causes this mysterious "normal face white" "normal leg white" blue eyes, or whathaveyou. well just what is it then, if it isn't pinto? it's not appy!

when i saw flaxenacres' first post last night this was my reaction:

: :no: ((((closes window and walks away)))) not going to get into another one of these....

but i feel the need to speak up on this one.......again.......

all face markings and leg white is due to a pinto gene. i know i've seen some apps have a roaning thing happening on their face, like i believe Lucky C Acres (?) has a yearling whose face is roaning out, maybe varnish or something, i'll have to look. but stripes, snips, stars, socks, those are due to pinto. pinto is a lot more common than most people think, actually. face markings are due to either frame, splash, or sabino, most commonly sabino. leg markings vary, often it's tobiano.

blue eyes could be due to a lot of things. appy isn't one of them. double dilutes have blue eyes, for example. champaign's eyes, while i've never seen one in person, i know aren't brown, kind of hazel-ish. some dilutes (palominos) are born with blue eyes that fade to brown eventually. Anyway, if there is no dilute to cause them to be blue, it's either frame or splash. Even on an appaloosa.

APPIES CAN CARRY PINTO TOO!!!! they can be both appy and pinto! Regardless of what the registry says or not, the genes are in there.

As for the breed/color thing - Appaloosa is both, in my opinion. Appaloosa breed is quarter horse with the appy color gene. Appaloosa color is the same gene just not on a quarter horse type. Appaloosa minis for example. or POAs. Just like Paint is a breed, pinto quarter horses. then we have that whole thing with solid bred paints, most of which aren't solid at all, just minimal.

all those "solid" horses that have face/leg white are minimal pintos. but unless there is excessive white markings, the horse wont be registered as pinto, but solid. so all those appaloosas with a stripe, or socks, they are carrying pinto genes, it's just not expressive enough on them to be classified as anything but solid.

This topic wouldn't get to me nearly as bad if it weren't for lethal white. the blue eyes are often frame, and if breeders continue to believe it's due to an appy gene and breed to blue eyed horses together, and end up lethal white....then what? blame something else and refuse to admit you bred two LWO carrying horses? come up with a theory of lethal appy?

: Whether they choose to agree with this or not, it's pinto.

If you'll take a look at one of Erica's foals, Taker i believe, his mom had nothing but a star and the dad had a stripe, and Taker is a very loud splash white! The genes were in the parent's just not as expressive.

Although we've covered this topic many times, and i've seen people say "normal face white" is juat that, normal face white, i've never seen anyone blame appaloosa for creating face white or even blue eyes! it's pinto, simple as that. An easy test for LWO would make me happy. :bgrin

okay if you cared to read that whole thing, then yay you get a dancing banana friend. :risa8:

....i promise i'm done now, logging off

 

[Flaxenacres]

Thats allright you all believe what you want and I will believe what I want1 and that my large Appaloosas are truely Appaloosas! Now for my mini Appalossas I know that they all have pinto in them or pintoloosa! Because they go back to Orion Vant Huttenest! lorie

Appaloosa is a breed and you can have solids! That is why they have to be blood typed to be registered! yes they are a color breed, but like all other colors if you dont have a homozygous you can get solid! And alot of times they will color out later with age! And when you breed an Appaloosa To Appaloosa You do get Appaloosa. But in the minis their are so many crosses that you are liable to get anything! Lorie

The Appaloosa is a BREED not a color.

I must disagree with this statement. When you breed two Arabs together, you get an Arab. When you breed two Morgans together, you get a Morgan. When you breed two Shetlands together, you get a Shetland. BUT, when you breed two Appaloosas together, you don't necessarily get an Appaloosa. Appaloosa is a pattern (or multiple patterns) which can be bred into any crossbred horse, just as Pinto can.

Be careful breeding those Appaloosas with face white, leg white, and blue eyes. You just may end up with a Pinto foal which they will not let you register.

 

[xtrememiniluv]

[SIZE=12pt]To all of those who are saying that any horse with a star, snip, blaze, white on feet carries a pinto gene, where have you found or heard of this information??[/SIZE]

I have been googling trying to find any genetic website that confirms this, but I have not been able to find.

Please help educate us!

 

[Fred]

Songcatcher I suggest you contact the Appaloosa horse club and tell them its a color not a breed I don't think they would buy it. It is a PEDIGREED breed. They have not hardshipped any horses in years and some go back to the 1800's just like the shetlands. There are solid apps just as there are solid paints [breeding stock]. Solid apps are CPO and can be shown. I know for a FACT that any pinto, pony or draft blood makes them ineligable for registration. By the way I don't think the Freisan registry would believe that the occasional sm white marking on the forehead that pops up now and then is pinto either.

 

[Songcatcher]

There are solid apps just as there are solid paints [breeding stock].

I will be the first to admit that I don't know a whole lot about Apps. Not putting down anyone who likes them, they're just not my thing. I wonder how many App breeders will breed these "Solid Apps" (and I mean those that are truely solid with no mottling or frosting) to each other? I doubt many will. Why? Because the goal is to produce color and the COLOR GENE is gone. I do know enough about them to know that some of them color out later in life. Those are not the ones I am referring to as Solid.

I don't have any idea on the statistics and I seriously doubt that anyone keeps records or will admit to it, but I wonder how many foals from "App" parents are rejected for registration because they have too much white on them and are visually Pinto?

People don't seem to have too much trouble recognizing that the base colors, Red and Black, are caused by specific genes (which can be genetically tested for). People don't seem to have too much trouble recognizing that dilutions such as Cream and Silver (which can both be genetically tested for), and Dun and Gray (which cannot be genetically tested for at this time) are caused by specific genes. Bay (Agouti) which restricts the black to the points is caused by a specific gene. Most people don't have a problem recognizing that there are a variety of Pinto gene patterns. Some can be genetically tested for (LWO and Tobiano) and some cannot (Splash and SOME forms of Sabino). I also entertain the theory that there MAY be white marking genes that may never produce substantial amounts of white or restrictor genes that will limit the areas that can show white (similar to Agouti restricting Black), but that is my theory only and I have no scientific backing for that.

Why is it that so many people have a problem recognizing that white markings are caused by specific genes also and are not part of Black, Red, Silver, Dun, Gray, Cream, Agouti, or even APP (sorry if I left out anyone's favorite color)? Obviously horses are NOT restricted to having JUST ONE color or pattern gene.

On a side note, I have seen a color genetics website that groups Appaloosa in with the variety of Pinto patterns simply as White Marking Patterns (not sure that wording is exact, but close).

Thats allright you all believe what you want and I will believe what I want1 and that my large Appaloosas are truely Appaloosas! Now for my mini Appalossas I know that they all have pinto in them or pintoloosa! Because they go back to Orion Vant Huttenest! lorie

Sorry if I offended any BIG App breeders. This is after all a MINIATURE HORSE FORUM. And by the way, there are many Miniature Apps that do not go back to Orion.

 

[Flaxenacres]

i did not say that all mini Apps. go back to Orion only that my own do! But were does it say that all face white is caused by the paint color gene? If you tell me were to find it I would love to read it. If this is true then all breeds that have white on there face have paint in them somewhere. ( I dont think so) Whats to say that all breeds dont carry all the color genes and they are recessive. I dont deny that Appaloosas carry theese genes I just dont know if they can be classified as only paint colors! There is alot to learn about color genetic and i for one dont know it all but I still do not believe white on the face is only a paint color!