When will people stop breeding

[Minimor]

I would point out that if all breeders are a part of the problem, then all buyers must also be a part of the problem. After all, if *you/me/we* didn't buy any of the horses being offered for sale...there would be absolutely no market, and with no market breeders would surely stop breeding...

If people didn't breed horses, and/or if people didn't sell horses, many people on this board would not HAVE horses.

 

[horsefeather]

Magic and others,

In my original post, I said stop breeding for awhile. By no means did I mean for anyone to take that as never breed your mares again! Most that have posted here are having only 4 or 5 babies in '09. Now, when you add them all up, along with all those who didn't post, that's a lot of new babies. Believe me, I'm NOT against selective breeding. I'm just saying I wish everyone would cut down some. Someone mentioned life changes. That's so true. Ten years ago we had a breeding program that we were proud of. Then, from somewhere, age appeared

I will be 65 next year and just don't have the energy I had 10 years ago. I really don't know where those 9 years went ... :Cold-Scared but I just know the next 9 will go just as fast, if not faster. Unfortunately, I didn't plan soon enough and here I am in my 'Golden Years' (should be called 'Rusty Years') and find I have too many horses. Maybe that's really what I am trying to say, just be careful that you are able to care for those that don't get sold.

Pam

P.S. Thanks everyone for keeping this discussion civil!!

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

I don't think some people ever seem to see the BIG picture... Its kinda sad. I have one mare and shes never been bred before. I am only thinking about doing that and yes I can keep the foal. I don't have to worry about anything really

 

[lil hoofbeats]

The European market prefers to buy mares that are bred. Looking at the reputable market, that's where many horses are going. And say what you want, but people will look at a mare's breeding record for buying. I know I do. There's too many shysters out there who will claim the foals weren't registered, or just cutting back on breeding, when the mare has a real problem and cannot be bred.

Right On!! Thats what im screamin!!!!! cant tell you how many "oh we just did not breed the mare back because of the market" stories i have been told, only to find that mare had scar tissue or some sort of infection and was a hard breeder, or not a breeder at all. Its not just the European market that prefers bred mares, its the American market too!! Most breeders, especially the ones that depend on it as a business, will not even consider an open mare.

We are very lucky here where i live, we have some outstanding equine reproduction specialist. We pay them well, and listen to what they say. The latest reproduction seminar we went to last year, stated that if you want 2-3-4 foals out of a mare, you breed that mare that number of years consecutively, and DO NOT LET THAT MARE STAND OPEN, because every year she stands open, your chances drop by 1/2 on getting that mare back in foal. After the age of 13 years, a mares fertility drops. Thats what the experts say, and the statistics show. Unfortunatley those are documented facts proven by experts in that field of study.(remembering that every mare is an individual)Iwill be happy to forward the articles on for anyone that cares to read.

I hope everyone has good luck with their horses in what ever endeavor they choose. As for me and my farm i will agressively try to get every mare that we have carefully chosen for our breeding program in foal. I have spent several thousand dollars this year on foaling systems, cameras, and seminars, and will warmly invite everyone to share the joys, as well as the sorrows of our much anticipated foaling year.

 

[CharlesFamily]

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

I know this can become a heated topic, and I usually avoid those, but I do think this is an important topic, especially for any "lurkers" like me who were thinking of jumping into the world of small equine. We CAN educate people and hopefully cause a change. Even if ONE person re-thinks breeding their mare or keeping their so-so stallion intact, that will have a big impact on this breed.

As I stated previously, NO breeding isn't realistic. But reduced AND selective breeding are. There are MANY farms from this forum that I admire. These are the ones that are aggressively trying to breed the best they can.

I really think part of the problem with small equine is that so many people become mini horse owners without having ever owned a horse. And what do they see most farms doing with them? Breeding!! And the foals, without a doubt, are the cutest things in the world! But they grow up and then something has to be done with them.

The "breed everything intact and with a uterus" mentality is, unfortunately, present in the big horse world, too, but not to such a huge extent I think because it is more costly to keep a large amount of full sized horses versus a herd of minis who are notoriously easy keepers.

And I know there is an argument against people who want to breed for competition and those who want to breed for "pets." But truly, even those who stand very expensive and valuable horses often have those who just aren't going to make the grade for national showing and will be available for those of us with smaller budgets - and I am one of those!

When I was showing "big" horses growing up, I was blessed to have two EXTREMELY well bred horses - one a Quarter Horse whose pedigree read like the "Who's Who" of the Quarter Horse world. He had been shown successfully at Congress as a walk-trot horse. When I was growing up, we couldn't afford big name horses, but this horse was never going to be a WP horse, and that was what the family wanted, so they made us a fantastic deal on him and he was the best horse I ever owned and will ever own. I lost him when he was 28.

My next show horse was a solid color Paint - whose sire was a multiple world champion. But because of his solid color he was GIVEN to me FREE as a weanling because these people knew I would give him a good home, and show locally on the open circuit, but not on the Paint circuit, so would not be advertising the fact that their world famous stallion had sired a solid colored foal.

My point after this long and rambling post is that there will ALWAYS be horses with fantastic pedigrees that even people like me will have a chance to own. We do NOT need to breed poor quality horses with no record of anything special just so your average Joe can have one in the backyard. Owning and breeding horses is a right, not a privilege.

Again, this is NOT aimed at the breeders on here who are breeding for form AND function. I am of the belief that even these little horses need to have a job - whether that is in the show ring, trail drives, CDE, therapy horses - whatever. If you enjoy just having your little horses and watching them frolic in the field, that is wonderful! But no matter what anyone says, I am firmly of the opinion that if something is going to be bred, then it should have proven WHY it deserves that privilege.

Okay, I'm going to put on my flame-resistant underwear now. I realize as a newbie here I may be seen as overstepping my bounds. BTW, my husband and I also practiced "selective breeding" as parents.

After having two children born with heart defects (one minor, one very severe) we decided we were not cut out to be "breeding stock" and he was "gelded"

. Even though I think we have a lot to offer to the world as parents, it wasn't fair to bring new little foals into this world that might have problems - so I practice what I preach - and not just in horses!

Barbara

ETA: Sheryl at Irish Hills Farm is one of those that gave someone like me a chance to own a horse with a great pedigree and show record - within my budget and we are VERY grateful to her!

 

[Jill]

I agree -- people need to look at minis like real horses that you DO things with, and for sure not every horse should be bred -- most horses should NOT be bred really.

Yeah... some breeders are sure they're not part of the problem. I feel I'm a responsible breeder. I had a good 9 years of not breeding for foals while I learned about minis through showing and research. I finally had my first planned foals in 2008 -- something I worked towards for nine years. It's something I take very seriously. We are happy to keep anything of ours that we decide to sell but don't sell. In fact, Harvey and I decided to keep our three 2008 babies and they are not currently available for anyone to purchase.

If everyone took 5 or more years in minis to learn about quality before breeding, I know there'd be way less minis and that the quality would be much better across the board. If people realized all the fun you can have with a mini that doesn't involve reproducing them, it would be a good thing for the breed.

Look at all the threads we see with basic questions that have to do with mare/foal welfare on the eve of foaling, or basic foal training and management questions as the foals are 3-4 mos old... I may be guilty of over planning some things in my life but why do so many mini people get these mares in foal and then 10 months later decide it's maybe time to get ready for a foal?

And the other end of the spectrum is that I can name off many breeders who consistentely produce outstanding horses. These are people I have or possibly will buy from and they are people I don't want to see reduce the number of horses they breed. For every one outstanding foal they have, there are 10 pet quality, average quality, unregistered, etc., being produced in other people's barns.

Like I said, we've got seven (7) mares who were old enough to breed this year. Of those, we have 3 mares in foal for next year and I cannot wait for the babies. They will be blessings in our life, or in someone else's. If the economy was better, I may have bred more or maybe not. We're not in a race and I like it that if Iwant to keep them all, I can.

 

[bingo]

Charles family thank you so much for your post! As a self proclaimed newbie you have brought great perspective to the discussion.

 

[Jill]

Lisa, you may have a point on the other hand, there were lots of pictures on the 2008 Purchases thread -- with the year not yet over

The market was supposedly bad the last few years and I think I've bought new horses each year, as have many others.

 

[Jill]

If people didn't breed horses, and/or if people didn't sell horses, many people on this board would not HAVE horses.

You are exactly right, Holly, and I am very thankful to nine (9) other breeders for what horses they have let me call "mine"

 

[rockin r]

Please No Flames on this question...or my reply...It is not directed toward anyone or any farm.....And I am not saying that *I* am not a part of the problem...

I have only "Purchased" *ONE* stallion in the years of owning horses, big and mini. With that being said, I have 2 other stallions . One that was a foal born here 3 years ago and one that we rescued 4 years ago, that in my opinion was too old (18) to geld. He was used almost literaly to death for breeding, gelding him will not change "what he thinks his job is". He is a very good stallion (manner wise).

My question is this.....How many of the mares (that you breed) had colts, that were "intact" at the time that they were sold/given away/sold at auction ect.. If there were'nt so many stallions, there would not be so many horses.

Yes, I said that I have 3 stallions, but only ONE did I bring into this world. I have no intentions of selling him, and he is on the slate for (possibly) gelding him this fall, but if for some reason I do not geld him and I do sell him, he WILL BE GELDED *BEFORE* he leaves my farm. I only use Dillion for breeding...and next year we will have ZERO foals. I am not a "everybody knows my name" farm.

Art and I betweeen us have 80 years experiance in horses. With that being said, does that make us responsible breeders? NO!!! Just because you have owned horses for that length of time does not make you responsible or even educated for that matter. IMO it don't matter how long a person has researched or educated themselves on breeding. When you let even one intact colt leave your farm, ranch, business, backyard etc...you are adding to the problem.

 

[CharlesFamily]

Rockin R,

You are right. This topic says "mares" but intact males are as much a part of the problem. The miniature horse world is the only one I know where almost everyone who owns this breed has at least one "stud." Now, I don't think "every" horse needs to be gelded before it is sold. The majority, yes.

In a perfect world, each sire would have proven himself as a valuable addition to the breed. Then each colt born of that sire would either, A. be above and beyond that sire in terms of attributes and what he can offer the breed and either take that sire's place or a place beside him in improving the breed OR B. be gelded.

My 4-H advisor growing up bred world champion Paint horses (as mentioned in my previous post). Each year he had a handful of his own mares that he bred. In all of the years I have known him, out of all of the colts out of his proven stallion, he only kept TWO intact - the rest were gelded and sold as show prospects. The first he kept as a replacement for the stallion that was getting older, and surpassed the father. Unfortunately, he lost him in a tragic accident. Then a few years later, he finally got the quality he needed and kept the second colt. That colt has gone on to prove himself in the Paint horse world and has become a world champion himself and was ready to replace his father when he became too old to breed and eventually passed away.

This was how I thought things were done. In fact, in the majority of the horse world, many of the breeders don't want to sell intact sons who might surpass their own stallion. They geld them to take away competition for breedings. Things may have changed in the years since I've been out of it - but it made sense then and makes sense to me now!

Barbara

 

[Shortpig]

I was one of those stupid people. Got three mares and a stallion. First year bred all three actually bought the stallion so I could breed the three mares. I must admit that I was pushed into the breeding thing by a good friend who was alot older. So next year we had three foals. All fillies one blk/wht pinto, two solid black. Here's the really stupid part I didn't know they were minis, thought they were small ponies.

So along comes a real mini person who is more than willing to trade us three shetland ponies for the older mare and two blk fillies. My partner jumped on the opportunity as he had seen how wonderful my daughter and I were at taming the two wild mares we had got. By the way those two wild mares were my Jasmine and Ariel. So now we have three wild shetland ponies who are yearlings. Guess what they were quite the group of girls. So we separated and worked with them to tame them down. We succeeded and my partner sold them to a gentlemen in our community who had a little jack and a plan to create his own small 20 mule team.

The first year we bred Jasmine back for a foal the next year. Ariel fell head over heels in love with the jack mule on the farm. Well you all know what the chances of a foal there are. She wanted nothing to do with my stallion just that silly old mule. The next year we had a pretty little blk/wht sabino filly. Kept her for about 18mos enjoyed her a bunch and then sold her.

So it had been 2yrs before I bred Jasmine again, Poor Ariel never got over her precious long eared boyfriend and refused any interest from my stallion. But Jackson had been given to a lovely home and would never return to his beloved Ariel. So then we have our first colt from Jasmine, tri colored beautiful little colt. Kept him until he was about 18mos and sold him. Waited a couple years and then finally bred Ariel to my stallion and she foaled a beautiful Silver Bay Colt who is know on here owner is mooreacres and it is her stallion Chip. The year he was born I bred Jasmine again hoping to get an awesome little solid black filly and low and behold I got Duckie with so much white I wanted to slap her mom. Tried to sell her as a 2yo and couldn't give her away. Decided to just keep her around she was sweet and fun to watch. Bred Jasmine 2yrs later once again hoping for that solid blk filly and out pops Koda, little colt, looked so much like his sire and so cute decided to see how he matured. Tried to sell him and once again couldn't give him away so I gelded him and he now keeps his sire company and happy. They spend their days standing side by side or playing. They share a stall and are pretty much inseparable.

As for Duckie I have never even attempted to breed her and she is 6yo. Going to be trained as a driving horse and as long as she is with me I have no intention of breeding her. Jasmine will never be bred again either unless there is some freak accident. It won't be my choice.

My original two black mares, Jasmine and Ariel will stay with me unless it becomes out of my control. However my daughter intends to keep them until they die. I know Ariel would love to have her long eared love of her life back but that will never happen. Jasmine has the love of her life right on the other side of the fence and they do talk alot. As for Duckie we will see how the training goes. She will stay for sale while in training only because I would love to see some one younger and more energetic than me get full use of her. So in 13yrs of owning minis I have produced 7 foals from my own mares. I have over those years rescued 3 other minis to place in good homes. I also rescued and placed a Kiger Mustang gelding. Wow! He was awesome. My Stallion Jimmy has produced a total of 11 foals in his lifetime. He wanted more I'm sure. I know he was capable of producing more for sure. Jimmy will also stay with me. Jobs for them now are Jimmy drives, Ariel drives, Jasmine lunges "her favorite thing in the whole world" go figure. Koda will learn to drive and so will Duckie.

I will miss the babies but I won't miss the stress involved with foaling. The nights with no sleep spent in a cold barn watching and waiting. Then walking away to go do whatever and coming back to find a foal walking around the stall.

B***ch you couldn't do that while I was standing here. Okay that's how I felt about it.

So yes there are some us or alot of us out there who jumped in as unknowledgeable people into the breeding game.

I know there are those who have bred a whole lot more than I have.

Over these years I have had a break up of a relationship and loss of good job. Dirt poor almost lost my home to the auction block. But my horses were always fed the best and well cared for. I might have lived on McDonalds $1.00 meals and ramen noodles and corn dogs but they always had good hay and feed. They have always had a dry shelter in the winter and summer and have always had their feet trimmed , wormings and shots. I have never raised a mean hand against them. When I am depressed they get me out of bed in the morning and a reason to still be here to go to bed at night. They have let me talk their ears off and cry in their manes with no hard feelings or pointing their hooves at me when they see me. My stallion is the sweetest gentlest soul I think I have ever known. Those who know him will say the same.

Long but I want people to understand that not all back yard breeders are the same. Some of it really do it for the love of the horse and do it very minimal.

As others have said yes something can happen in your life so quickly and so out of your control that you would suddenly be unable to care for your horses. As we get older that becomes even more apparent. It's always best to have a backup plan for your herd no matter how large or small. Thank you God! I have my daughter and her husband and some good friends.

 

[CharlesFamily]

Shortpig,

Thanks for sharing your story! I don't think anyone is calling backyard breeders stupid - I certainly am not! I was one the first time I got into minis. I first started with a CUTE little stallion, then of course HAD to have a mare to breed him to! Luckily, my first two were registered and actually were pretty good quality. Of course, this is over a decade ago - what won in the show ring then would not win now. I bred, I trained, I showed and had good success with all of that. It wasn't going to support me, but it also wasn't putting me in the poor house. AND, I only bred for ONE foal a year. I only had three foals because I only ever owned one mare that I re-bred and I only bred her every other year.

BUT - the market has changed. I read somewhere once that the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and hoping for a different result. When you (general you, not addressing anyone in particular) have 5 foals from the previous year that you cannot sell WHY are you re-breeding your mares?? Breeding horses that you love, SELECTIVELY is not what is overflooding the market. Sure, it may not be helping, but it is not what I see as the main problem. Times change, and you either adapt to fit the changes and keep being successful, or you fail.

You have some breeders who have herds of horses in HUGE pastures that hardly ever see a human, much less handled by one. They throw a stallion in there breed whatever comes into heat, let the mares foal, wait a few months and pull them off the dam, then slap a for sale sign on them. THESE are the farms that I define as adding to the problem.

FYI - I don't like the term "backyard breeder" using it as a derogatory term. Whether your horse lives in your backyard or in a fancy barn that rivals most people's houses - that doesn't make you any better or worse than the next person. It's not WHERE your horses are located, it's what you do with them and how you educate yourself.

Barbara

ETA - I really will quit trying to dominate this topic! Sorry - I guess I was on a roll this morning!

 

[Shortpig]

I changed the stupid thing and edited the post. I actually was more referring to me in the beginning. Believe me I was pretty stupid about the breeding game at the time. My horses live in my backyard. They have lived in several places over the years but now I keep them on a dry lot and they eat what I feed them. They are happiest in my backyard where they can see us in the house and out and about in the yard. They have room back there to run, buck and play.

I am done breeding. I want them all to have a job to do except for Jasmine. She was trained to drive in the beginning.

Then two guys decided to hitch Jasmine team hitch with a mini mule and they spooked. Ran head on into a fence. Broke the tongue of the wagon they were pulling. Neither animal got hurt. The Mule Jill learned not to run away ever again.

Jasmine became a bundle of nerves anytime I tried to hitch her. Since then she has been the best mom and my friend.

she only trusts me really and we have a great relationship. As long as I lunge her semi regularly she is happy and healthy. She still is a nervous horse but with slow soft movements she mellows out. The other thing she is extremely good at is giving little kids a ride. Because of her driving training she can be ridden and knows the cues. She is very gentle with small kids and loves those little arm hugs. I just don't have any small children around who can get the use out of her at this time. Someday the kids are trying.

 

[Joyce]

I have not been breeding the past few years and my herd is down to 9 presently from 32 at my highest. I have 3 stallions, 2 geldings and 4 mares left. Just recently placed a mare to be a companion for an older retired quarter horse and they are getting along very well together. The market here in New England seems very slow now. Even the pet market has slowed down and I believe it is the economy to blame. People just don't have the extra bucks to have a horse, not even a mini. I hope whoever the new President is, will be able to start up the economy again and we can all get on with our lives once again.

JMO,

Joyce L

Little Folks Farm, CT

 

[lyn_j]

I breed for myself..... Two years ago, 2 foals 1 mini and 1 shetland. Sold both, last year 1 foal, sold her to my boarder who bought the mini two years ago so they are both still here. She is a GORGEOUS palamino filly, show quality and she will never be bred as long as Janet owns her. IF Janet ever decides to sell her I will be buying her back and then we will see , I would probably breed her to Remi. This year I have 1 mare bred for a foal I want to keep no matter of sex. I may be leasing another mare to breed to Remi. I own 3 mares and the filly from this year. Thats all. The economy is awful, but some really top quality horses are still bringing top prices.

We will see what happens next year.

Lyn

 

[horsefeather]

Shortpig!

Pam

 

[Taylor Jo]

I agree that it needs to slow down and not stop. It's hard cause I "am" looking for a young one and it almost makes me feel guilty cause you feel like you sorta add to the problem, like someone else stated. But, my last two I bought a yearling and a 3 year old so it's not like I buy babies all the time and I've NEVER bred. I feel justified somewhat in my decision. I want to start out from the beginning w/ one and my husband and I would like the experience of having a young one as we've never had a baby before other then our yearling. I've had horses most of my life and only 1 baby and all my horses have been adults so I've done pretty good. I have no intentions of breeding right now just showing, I'll leave the breeding to the experts. This next one we get is like the others we have, we intended on keeping and taking care of them as if they were are children. I can't imagine life w/o them. However, I do realize that life circumstances change and nothing is forever sometimes, so you have to be realistic also. But, for now they're in my care and while I have them and the others that will come along, I will do my darnedest to take the BEST possible care of them. Well enough rambling, TJ

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I have seen SO MANY folks (both on here and other forums) that say they must downsize their herd, or they have too much work and can't keep up, or they must make room for the new babies, etc. but MOST (not all) of those folks are selling their mares "bred to so-n-so for a 09 foal." Can't people look around and SEE the problem is getting worse and worse for selling horses....not just minis, but big horses as well! Most of the rescues are so full they can't take in anymore horses. Please folks, STOP BREEDING for awhile. It isn't really that hard. If you have stallions, keep them away from your mares. That's all it takes.

Pam - I agree with you on the 'must make room for the new foal crop' attitude as often - this is my irritant - that they dump those mares that have been foaling for them and are near or at retirement age as if they're now worthless. That bugs me to no end!

As for the 'I'm not part of the problem because I (fill in the blank)

a) have uber horses so they deserve to be bred

b) am so very smart and know all about minis

b) only breed for myself and will keep all my foals

c) only have 1, 2 10 or 50 foals a year

d) breed less than I use to

sorry if you breed at all - AT ALL - you are contributing to this problem And I do include myself in that group. I do breed, significantly less every year - but I do breed.

I'm not going to tell anyone else what they should do as it's a free country and I don't profess to be a know it all about minis or anything else. Those that do keep striving to grown and improve will, the rest will stay entrenched in their opinion regardless what is said.

I'm very grateful to Mary Lou for the Forum as I do learn on here and have had my thoughts changed from the differing and often diverse opinions! Liz (Nootka) has without knowing it influenced me on the whole gelding issue for one.

Barbara - just wish people involved in minis would see them more like the big horses - something to work with and enjoy, not just breed. This is so true and has been making me think quite a bit as to why people feel the need to breed, including examining my own reasons.

But what I see as the problem is responsible breeders that put thought into it, work with quality (not necessarily expense) stock, do their research, etc., are not the issue regardless of how many foals they produce - as most are conscientious and are trying to do right by the breed they love.

It's the mini mill breeders (big down to backyard) that have average to low quality minis (often unregistered) that breed all of them every year and sell for ridiculously low money, fill up all breed auctions, and give their horses minimal or no care, and turn around and tell buyers they can make money doing this too. Unfortunately most aren't on this Forum.

 

[susanne]

Michelle, you have said it beautifully.

To paraphrase Pogo, we have met the enemy, and it is us.

No matter how high of quality horses we breed, nor how long we've waited to breed them, we are all part of the problem, and only we can help to solve it.

Even if we breed to keep the babies, we are taking up the room that we could have provided for a horse that desperately needs a home.

No, it is not reasonable or realistic to expect breeding to stop altogether, and breeding less is only a partial solution, but it is a start.

We each need to make the effort to help the situation. Instead of breeding with the intention of keep the foal, we should adopt a rescue horse. Or, intead of breeding five mares, we should breed onr or two. Instead of breeding a mare until she is barren, we might breed her for a much shorter number of years.

So what if it is true that buyers only want bred mares -- perhaps you could have her vet-checked or offer to repurchase if the mare doesn't get in foal. It's the same as gelding colts -- it may cut down on the profit margin, but that's the price you pay.

We each are part of the problem, and we can, at the very least, do our part in lessening it. I see breeders of wonderful quality horses (nootka, crabby chicken, shortpig, and so many others) drastically cutting back on their breeding, gelding wonderful colts and stallions, or stopping breeding entirely...in other words, putting their money where their mouths are.

We can't and wouldn't want to stop breeding altogether, but we each need to do our part. Breeding quality horses is no longer adequate justification. We can't blame it on backyard breeders or anyone else. A well-bred, well-conformed, long-planned for horse can end up in a sorry state of neglect or in a kill pen, just as easily as those coming from ignorant, unplanned breedings.

All any of can really do is to do what we know is right.

I would dearly love to breed Scarlet for a foal we would then keep, and I still fantasize about possible suitors for my darling girl, but the way things are, this would not be right. If we have the space and the money to care for another horse, it should be an already existing horse that needs a home.

PMart of my purchase contract for Scarlet sllows allows her former owner to breed her once, and that will almost certainly be the only time she is ever bred. I love her for who she is, not what kind of foal she might produce.

Until all the "quality" breeders recognize that they, too, are creating the problem, we will continue to have a problem too many horses.