Which cart would you choose ?

[hobbyhorse23]

I don't know how to break up or copy from a pdf file so I'll see if there's somewhere else I can host it.

Leia

 

[REO]

 

[shorthorsemom]

I don't know how to break up or copy from a pdf file so I'll see if there's somewhere else I can host it.

Leia

Hey Leia, I tried to send you a PM with some cart questions and it bounced back.. do mailboxes on LB get too full? Adair

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hey Leia, I tried to send you a PM with some cart questions and it bounced back.. do mailboxes on LB get too full? Adair

Yes, yes they do. Sorry! I tried to archive it so I could clear some old messages and couldn't figure out how to do it since the update.

I'll work on that but meanwhile you can email me at hobbyhorse23 at g mail dot com (without all the spaces and such, of course.) Sorry about that!

Leia

 

[shorthorsemom]

Yes, yes they do. Sorry! I tried to archive it so I could clear some old messages and couldn't figure out how to do it since the update.

I'll work on that but meanwhile you can email me at hobbyhorse23 at g mail dot com (without all the spaces and such, of course.) Sorry about that!

Leia

I sent you an email Leia, let me know if you don't get it. thanks Adair

 

[shorthorsemom]

Neither- I don't like how high the single tree is positioned on the G&S and I would not buy a Meadowbrook for CDE. Ever.

Too heavy and for no reason at all, really. You don't need fenders, fold-up rear entry seats or any of that stuff.

If you want that look, get a road cart! Same thing really but gets rid of all the heavy, clunky, bulky extra parts and looks much more in-scale to an A mini. Cheaper, too.

For dressage and cones, pleasure shows, and versatility in switching to breed shows I'd be looking into the Graber ADS model cart. If you need one cart to do all three phases and do it well I'd personally be going for the Bellcrown Aerocrown. Anything you could put marathon shafts on and that offers a lowered angle of draft.

I wrote an article several years ago on selecting a cart for CDE and trail driving for Miniature World Showcase magazine and have a copy of it online but cannot post the link on LB. If you're interested send me a PM and I'll be happy to forward it to you.

Leia

Hi Leia, I have tried to pm you with questions on carts. I am shopping carts lately looking for something becides my meadowbrook for my boy. I too noticed the height of the singletree position on the G&S trail cart. Everything else on that cart looks good, it is very similar to the minicrown that I can't afford. When I asked the guy at G&S about whether the singletree could be put on upside down to lower the draft, he said no but that he could lower the axle which would lower everything. I cannot picture how he can do this and thought I would run it by you. I wish the single tree was more in line with the shafts like the bellcrown. Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.

I think you can put marathon shafts on the bellcrown which makes it better, but the price makes me shudder. The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart?

My trainer is cringing at my thoughts of me taking on a hyperbike, but I do admit to be on the layaway plan for one. My trainer wants me to wait and get something in between like the bellcrown, which got me looking at the G&S cart. Mostly why she wants me to wait is because of experience and the fact that my boy once in his past had a runaway incident.

My boy is 32-33 inches tall. Are the 20 inch wheels less desirable for trails than the 24 inch wheels? Your thoughts would be appreciated. I love the hyperbike and want one, but am considering an easy entry type trail cart too so I can have one of my kids ride along with me and be a header. The meadowbrook plus two in the carts is too much for my boy... thoughts and opinions appreicated from all.

What I do is around the farm driving right now, I take lessons, we do hills and trails. I may do CDE someday, but that is in the way future if at all... thanks. Adair

 

[RhineStone]

Adair, I know you asked for Leia's input, but I thought I might be able to help in the meantime.

When I asked the guy at G&S about whether the singletree could be put on upside down to lower the draft, he said no but that he could lower the axle which would lower everything. I cannot picture how he can do this and thought I would run it by you.

Lowering everything isn't going to solve your problem, it would just make your cart smaller.

I wish the single tree was more in line with the shafts like the bellcrown. Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.

Exactly. The purpose of having the singletree in line with the angle of the draft is the ease of pulling for the horse. Think about if you were pulling a sled through the snow. You want your draft to be as close to the point of resistance as possible, that is, down by the ground. But say your sled had a "gooseneck" and you had to pull it from there. Can you see how that would make pulling more difficult? Now say you actually have the pulling straps (traces) going "uphill" even further away from the point of resistance. That makes it even more difficult.

Now, that being said, you also have to consider the angle of the collar you are using on the horse. The breastcollar is designed to take a "level" pull, that is straight out from the shoulder, level to the ground. A full collar rests on the horse's shoulders at an angle, and the most effective, comfortable pull for that collar is lower, so that the traces are at a right (90 degree) angle to the collar. Think of it this way. Hold your hand straight up. If that was your horse's collar, the pull should be at a right angle to your hand. Now tip your hand like a full collar rests. The same right angle to your hand culminates considerably lower. If you use a full collar with a "level" draft, the pull on the collar is not equalized all the way around the neck/shoulders of the horse. The pull is only at the bottom of the collar, somewhat defeating the purpose of using a full collar.

The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart? Are the 20 inch wheels less desirable for trails than the 24 inch wheels?

Well, there is a trade off with mini wheels. Yes, smaller wheels weigh less than larger ones, BUT in rough and rocky ground, larger wheels are more beneficial, as they can roll over bumps more easily. Smaller wheels may get stuck in ruts that larger wheels can roll right over.

Myrna

 

[shorthorsemom]

thanks Myrna for your answers. I have a breast collar and it is adjusted so the buckle in traces go directly level with the shaft and into the singletree which is upside down on my meadowbrook. Not ideal in appearance to have the singletree on the bottom but my trainer is very particular with the draft and making things easier to pull. She wanted me to start taking things off my meadowbrook to make it lighter, but I would rather sell it than take it apart and buy something better suited and easier to get in and out of. I don't like the weight of my meadowbrook and I don't like how far I am out on the reins entering from the rear of the cart although I always use a header helper when I am entering and exiting the cart. The ride is nice though and very cute and would make an adorable road or show cart for someone.

I keep shopping hoping to find something that is better suited for my kind of driving and doesn't break the bank.

I hear the ride on the minicrown isn't that comfortable and I never did like how low the back rest is on that cart. I sat in it once and although I know you aren't supposed to lean back, it did feel rather unsupported. I wish I could design my own cart. I just keeping on shopping and can't make a decision.

I have much more to learn and don't want to buy anything without a bunch of research and end up ordering the wrong thing. The people at G&S are very nice and it is a beautiful cart, but the height of the singletree is what is still making me wait on my decision.

Thank you Myrna for some more education, I really appreciate it. I still want my hyperbike, but want a trail cart too. sigh.

I do have an offer to go try out some carts from a mini CDE experienced friend, I am rethinking that might be a good idea and help me with my decisions on something...

Adair

 

[shorthorsemom]

Has anybody tried Graham carriage works pleasure/trail cart that is on his web page? Lots of money, but with Bob's layaway plan I could probably save toward it, nobody else has such a fair deal as Bob and his layaway plan.

Anybody out there have one of these and can you do trails and hills etc? Just curious. still shopping... Adair

 

[RhineStone]

I have a breast collar and it is adjusted so the buckle in traces go directly level with the shaft and into the singletree which is upside down on my meadowbrook. Not ideal in appearance to have the singletree on the bottom but my trainer is very particular with the draft and making things easier to pull.

Oh, I don't know about that....any judge worth their weight understands what you are doing. While we haven't put a singletree on upside down, we have undermounted the cross bar and put the singletree on top, therefore lowering the singletree. You can see examples of this on our website.

There are other really nice mini vehicles where the builder (who understands how driving horses work) has adjusted the position of the singletree to make the pull more logical. Eve Dexter has a really nice mini Gig made by Jeff Kohler where the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars. You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm

As long as there is a logical, safe reason for making adjustments to a vehicle, go ahead and do it!

Myrna

 

[Sue_C.]

the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars

And that is exactly what I plan to have done to my G & S cart...shouldn't be hard, no reason why it won't work. As it is, it is only the depth of the cross bar "high", so not that much higher than it will be, more of an aesthetic difference really. Actually most, if not all, of the regular EE carts, and meadowbrooks I have seen have the whipple tree a tad too high.

 

[ClickMini]

OMG, that Relhok Gig is GORGEOUS!!! Thanks a lot, Myrna! Something else to be wishful for. LOL Yes, it is now bookmarked.

 

[RhineStone]

One challenge with trying to undermount a singletree or a cross bar is that the singletree needs to be narrow enough to fit in between the shafts or whatever else might be "in the way", frame, etc. The singletree also needs to be wide enough to be beneficial for the horse. This may take some planning on behalf of the builder.

Yes, most mini vehicles have the singletree too high. Way back in the early 2000's, Craig Kellogg was the TD at one of the shows we were at. While we were waiting for our class, he noticed the singletree placement on top of the cross bar and how high it was for the minis. This is not an unusual arrangement for a big horse vehicle which is why it has carried over to the mini vehicles. But of course in mini vehicles inches matter. Half and quarter inches matter, too. Where it wouldn't make that much difference in the draft of a 15-16HH horse, it makes a world of difference in a mini vehicle. After he pointed this out, he wondered out loud about undermounting the singletree. Prior to him making that comment, we were novice enough that we had no idea you could even do that. But a few years later, we tried it with our vehicles and have been happy with the draft ever since. And NO ONE has made any comments about it looking "silly".

Myrna

 

[RhineStone]

OMG, that Relhok Gig is GORGEOUS!!!

Yes, but as with most things, "gorgeous" comes with weight and a price tag!

(Things that a lot of mini people have an issue with...

) Eve told me that the gig is fairly heavy for her 33" horses, which is why she uses the full collar. Personally, except for "weakling" horses, I don't mind if my horses have to pull a bit more. It makes them use their butt more!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I hear the ride on the minicrown isn't that comfortable and I never did like how low the back rest is on that cart. I sat in it once and although I know you aren't supposed to lean back, it did feel rather unsupported. I wish I could design my own cart.

If the ride of that person's Minicrown isn't that comfortable, they didn't get the torsion axles adjusted for their weight.

My older Minicrown was a little stiff for me (which was still better than any other type of spring I'd tried!) but the one I had customized for my weight was smooooooth.

And we've got some hella rough ground to try it out over, trust me!

The lower back rest is one of the things I love as I'm a smaller person and can't stand having the higher back rests punching me in the kidneys with every stride. With the lower one it still catches me if the horse scoots forward but I can just absorb the motion of the cart with my hips as I would when riding and all is well.

I do have an offer to go try out some carts from a mini CDE experienced friend, I am rethinking that might be a good idea and help me with my decisions on something...

This is really the best thing you can do. Find the cart you like the best and customize it to have the other features you want. If you can't have all of them, focus on draft and ride first, looks second.

Eve Dexter has a really nice mini Gig made by Jeff Kohler where the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars. You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm

I'm with Amy-

I'd have the wheels a size smaller and bent shafts on that thing, but otherwise it's gorgeous!

Yes, but as with most things, "gorgeous" comes with weight and a price tag!

(Things that a lot of mini people have an issue with...

) Eve told me that the gig is fairly heavy for her 33" horses, which is why she uses the full collar. Personally, except for "weakling" horses, I don't mind if my horses have to pull a bit more. It makes them use their butt more!

Well, ya know, if I had money I'd have full-sized horses instead of minis.

The problem for many minis is that they aren't built to easily use their rumps in the first place so the more you load them, the harder it is for them to track up properly and really use their toplines. You don't want a "light" cart behind them, just one that isn't past that threshold for making everything into sheer draft work! Unfortunately that threshold is fairly low for many A-sized minis with modern refinement, especially in arena footing or on hills. There comes a point where the vehicle and driver simply outweigh the horse and that isn't fair to ask them to pull through less than ideal conditions. Kody only weighed 230lbs when we were competing so he was at his max with only a 120lb cart and 100lb driver.

Also, many of us want a light cart because we have to use the same thing for an experienced competition horse and a green horse. What the conditioned horse can easily haul will overface and intimidate a green horse and it isn't fair to ask that of them IMO.

Frankly half of us don't want to be driving in the first place- we want to ride but they're too small so we try to lighten the load behind them as much as possible so we can pretend it isn't there!

Maybe that's just me.

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Everything else on that cart looks good, it is very similar to the minicrown that I can't afford.

No, it really isn't.

Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not slapping at the very nice G&S cart nor am I saying you should buy a Bellcrown you can't afford. But they are apples to oranges. Different suspension systems, different draft, different shafts, different axles, different everything. The only thing similar is that they fit the same size range of horses and they're both usually black.

Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.

Myrna covered this nicely for you and I'm glad she replied as she's more of a cart expert than I am. She builds them!

I just drive them.

For a cart with horizontal draft, yes, I want the singletree at least in line with the shafts if not preferably lower. As Myrna said, a few inches makes a very big difference with miniatures and Kody lets me know that he doesn't like that feeling of his traces being downhill from the cart. He also doesn't like it when I run the traces through the breeching holdbacks on my EE to try and keep the angle down. The interference is felt in his shoulders and inhibits his movement. Sometimes it's useful having a very picky horse!

You learn a lot from them.

I think you can put marathon shafts on the bellcrown which makes it better, but the price makes me shudder. The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart?

Yes, honestly it is. You can trail drive just fine in a cart with horizontal draft but it was designed for vehicles that were going to be rolling smoothly along country roads. It works very well in that context. But once you start bouncing over tree roots and through potholes and asking your horse to pull a solid percentage of his own weight up hill on a regular basis, you owe it to him to give him the best setup possible. That means large wheels to glide over the potholes, lowered draft to help lift it out of the potholes, and preferably some sort of contoured breastcollar if not a neck collar to ease the jolts to his shoulders.

Marathon shafts which end at the saddle are most useful if you're going to be making tight turns constantly, otherwise bent shafts that go all the way to the shoulder are fine. I like the bent shafts over straight shafts because they allow the holdback straps on the breeching to lie flat at the correct height and the tips turn out away from the shoulder so the horse doesn't get poked in the neck when he moves into them.

Let me be clear- I, personally, would be perfectly happy trail driving in a regular EE with straight shafts, 20" wheels and even coil springs as long as I could lower the singletree. That is the single biggest thing for comfort for the horse! You don't have to go spend a mint on a fancy cart.

My trainer is cringing at my thoughts of me taking on a hyperbike, but I do admit to be on the layaway plan for one. My trainer wants me to wait and get something in between like the bellcrown, which got me looking at the G&S cart. Mostly why she wants me to wait is because of experience and the fact that my boy once in his past had a runaway incident.

Well, something in between is always a good idea. That way you have a slightly lighter, more mobile cart than your current meadowbrook to use all the time and the 'Bike for when you want to strap on wings.

If they want to take off they're going to no matter what they're hauling, but I'll admit they do get a bit more frisky in the 'Bike than a regular cart and that can be a pain as they don't tire out nearly as quickly.

I know you had a bunch of specific questions about that in your email which I'll answer privately. What you're asking about at this point is more what to do for your meadowbrook replacement, and for that I'd say you're probably going to be stuck with 20" wheels on an EE-style cart given your horse's size but if you can modify the singletree that will be fine.

Leia

 

[Shari]

You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm

As long as there is a logical, safe reason for making adjustments to a vehicle, go ahead and do it!

Myrna

Oh Drool.... that is one nice cart... I want!!

 

[shorthorsemom]

Thank you everybody for all those experienced and terrific answers on carts!! Leia, I sent you an email (at least I think I did) as to which direction I am thinking of going now. I did find Leia's cool article on carts and helpful information on different types of carts. Myrna, thank you too for your very excellent explanations about draft and angle and wheels and everything you explained so well to me. On my quest for more information, I did find out today that the mini crown has a conversion for shorter leg people. The minicrown I sat in before was sized for a taller driver which is why my feet were dangling in space and I didn't feel right sitting in it. The importance of fit to driver and horse is now firmly inbedded into my brain and now I am on a mission to find the right cart. I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit, it really is the same importance that you get the cart right and somewhere along there I am thinking I may be on the right track now. Hope that makes sense, I will be sure to let you know what I end up with.

Thanks again Myrna and Leia and everybody else that chipped in and helped this newbie understand more about carts and fits. This forum is great

Adair

 

[RhineStone]

The importance of fit to driver and horse is now firmly inbedded into my brain and now I am on a mission to find the right cart. I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit,

You don't know how much that is music to my ears!!!

Myrna

 

[hobbyhorse23]

That's great, Adair. Congratulations!

I did think of a couple more small things last night- first, that the back rest is probably a little higher for me on my Bellcrown as I put new, lower seat cushions on it so my feet could brace firmly on the floor boards. That may be coloring my perspective on whether it's too low or not. Second, on the subject of high singletrees, I did find that it's possible to reduce the angle of the traces by replacing the high-mount sword-end singletree with a hook-end one that has the point of attachment centered in the middle of the block of wood rather than up near the top of the block of wood. I'm not sure if you'll know what I mean, but if you look closely it's like those sword-end singletrees were made by shaving up from the bottom only rather than equally from the top and bottom. It's not much, but it helps when you can't remount the entire singletree lower.

Leia, I sent you an email (at least I think I did) as to which direction I am thinking of going now.

You did.

I swear one of these days I'll read it on my laptop instead of my cell phone so I can type a long reply!

On my quest for more information, I did find out today that the mini crown has a conversion for shorter leg people. The minicrown I sat in before was sized for a taller driver which is why my feet were dangling in space and I didn't feel right sitting in it.

I don't know about a conversion, but if you buy directly from Carriage Machine Works instead of going through a distributor they are VERY good at sizing the cart for you. When I ordered a prototype Aerocrown for competitors to try out here in the NW we discussed my height, weight, usage, horse, terrain, and the cart that showed up later was PERFECT for us both. A much better fit than my original Minicrown model. And he customized the torsion axles for my weight so the ride was nice and cushy.

I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit, it really is the same importance that you get the cart right and somewhere along there I am thinking I may be on the right track now.

A very sound principle. Unless you've got more money than Bill Gates it's generally good to get a set of safe, sound starter equipment and stick with that as you do your research. Eventually you'll be prepared to buy what you really want instead of going through one or more intermediate level carts that you'll find aren't exactly what you're looking for. If you jump to upgrade before you know what you need you'll end up spending far more money in the end and the only ones who get a good deal are the local folks who later buy those carts from you and don't have to pay shipping!

Trust me- we've all been there, done that. I have four carts now (Hyperbike, Bellcrown, Frontier and a Graber show cart) and with the exception of some changes I'd like to make to the show cart (open wheels instead of closed, lower singletree, and maybe a different pinstripe to work with Turbo) I've found that combination covers all my needs. But to get there I went through an Edgeman EE cart (too heavy), a Houghton (too narrow for the horse) and a homemade Canadian show cart! If I'd gotten to see any of those carts in person before I bought them I would have saved myself at least a thousand dollars in shipping because I would have known, immediately, that they weren't going to work. After that I did the smart thing and tried out every cart I could get my hands on to find out what I liked and what I didn't. Then I went straight to the vehicles I have now and am very happy with them.

The lesson I learned is always try out a cart model you're interested in before purchasing and if you can't, wait. Or at least talk to someone who owns one and is able to discuss in detail with you what they like about it or don't! "It's great" doesn't cut it. What is great? How does it fit someone of similar size? There are so many things you don't learn about until you've been driving awhile and they make all the difference in your satisfaction with your equipment. The longer you wait, the more you'll know and the more likely it is you'll end up with something you love.

Forums like this are a lot of help but they can't take the place of actually riding in that cart.

Leia