Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[SmoothEZ]

I have been hanging around on this forum now for quite some time and I usually do not post much but lately I have noticed that there seems to be alot of mediocre horses that are kept as stallions that should not be. I know alot of people here claim that their breeding goals are to improve the breed and I can say that in the last 10 years or so the breed has come a long way, but it still seems to me that alot of people are barn blind when it comes to their stallions. I am a firm believer that you do not have to keep every horse as a stallion, if you want to improve on your breeding stock there are alot of really good stallions out there that stand to outside mares. Wouldn't it benefit you small breeders to pay that breed fee instead of putting alot of pet quality horses on the market. Wouldn't that also help the breed economics, as the resulting foals would be worth more and the amount of pet quality horses would be reduced. It just seems to me that alot of the so called small breeding operations are sabotaging the breed in a whole just to say they have a breeding stallion when in fact what they have or what they should have is a half way decent gelding.

I look at alot of the critique pictures that are posted on here and I think to myself that I would not breed that horse or even show it in any halter or confirmation classes as it has many things wrong with it, but these people that post really think that they can do well in a confirmation class. I also read alot of the posts that result out of these requests for critiques and I think alot of the response are over and above being nice. My mother always told me that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all. I believe that the "nice" responses are just perpetuating the problem and these people will continue to breed mediocre horses if we continue to tell them (because we are nice people) that they have nice horses. If you have to ask for a critique of a horse then there is a good chance that the horse has problems. If you want to know how your horse will perform in a confirmation class then go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites and if you can not honestly say that your horse can stand along side their horses in the show ring and you would not be embarrased to be there then maybe just maybe you have something. But if you are embarrased then it is time to geld. Sorry now it is time for me to step down off my Sounding Platform.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=36pt]AMEN![/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[nootka]

Not being snobbish, myself, but not wanting for others that don't know me to think so, I keep my opinion to myself lots of times.

There are so many WONDERFUL stallions out there, with everything to offer.

Far too few are willing to be selective in their goals, even if it means not breeding "little so and so" the love of their lives. I don't really have a problem with it when the people are committed to decent homes, but even so, why would they breed/buy a little short-legged thing w/heavy bone (I dont' mean good bone, I mean HEAVY), a coarse head, etc. etc. as well as many poor conformation points. Because they're cheap to buy. This is why I geld my baby boys. I just don't want to contribute to that.

I think the colts I've gelded in the past (most of them) have been better than 2/3rds of the stallions I see advertised for farms. Just being "subjective". Anyone that knows me knows I am far more critical of my own horses than anyone else's. I am quite picky and yes, I do know my horses have flaws and shortcomings, but I keep my eyes on those and am careful not to double up.

Horses that are so-so or have conformational defects which will cause unsoundness are culled as pets/performance horses depending on the problem and the males are sold gelded.

I think too many are willing to sell their colts too cheaply and then someone gets one and thinks "well, I'll get a little mare for him" and so on and so on. Which is fine, but it happens a LOT and it doesn't need to be so much an afterthough rather than something you concentrate on.

Everyone has their own tastes, which I forgive with type, but obvious deformities which cause unsoundness, heritable flaws (and I consider incredibly heavy bone for their proportions a flaw), all of these are unnecessary.

The problem is many-fold and it begins with education and awareness of what's out there.

Not everyone wants to own the next National Champion, but shouldn't we all try to at least keep our eyes on correctness and conformational proportions?

Liz M.

 

[Devon]

Well Said !!I know what you mean but beginnners and new horse owners get all excited with their new horse ownership and want to get straight into showing many dont know what show quality is all they know is theyre horse is beautiful and thats all that matters. they will figure when they show that their horse isnt show quality its ok though theres Performance classes that these "Non Show Horses" as you call them can EXCEL! Perhaps I get your point with Stallions but We cant perfect the breed and change pepoples opinions on the type of horse they like

: Let It Be and if someone thinks their horse is Stunning let them.

:

:

 

[HGFarm]

Oh ditto to all the above 10 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have seen horses kept for 'sentimental reasons' as stallions that were just not up to par... and yes, many are barn blind. They dont understand why the offspring does not sell, or they only get $800 for it.

 

[Jill]

 

[miniaddiction]

I cannot agree more! :aktion033: What gets me, is how many people will say "wow how come you gelded him? Hes so Nice"....... I also know a person over here, who imported a really really good show gelding, who has since been a supreme champ horse over here. People often say to her, "why on earth would you spend all that money importing a gelding when you cant even breed with him?

Really well said SmoothEZ, thanks for bringing this up. :bgrin

Helen

 

[KanoasDestiny]

I am really confused here!!! It all started earlier this week, when I saw a post on here where a forum member stated that her stud may be throwing locking stifles. A GREAT majority of the people I usually see post about the "betterment of the breed", told her that in no way should she geld her horse and that they would be honored to have a foal by him. In fact...I think only 3 members were honest and said that they would not buy a foal of his.

What gives? I understand that he is a gorgeous horse (I have told her that myself) and I personally would have no problem buying one of his foals (my filly was born with a bad bite and in no way is she unworthy to me), but I have also never passed judgement onto other people's horses and told them that they are only mediocre. To me, if you are interested in the betterment of the breed, then this stallion, regardless of how beautiful he is, would be a big no no to breed. I think a lot of people are being biased here.

I saw another member ask to have their horse critiqued on here yesterday. To me, there was no difference of the before picture (where apparetnly a year ago, you told her he was not breeding material) and the pictures that were current. Appearence doesn't change the fact of whether he should be bred or not. If he had flaws a year ago, wouldn't he just be a flawed horse in general where breeding is concerned? Or if he is good enough to breed now, wouldn't he have still had the same genes last year? By the way, to me, he was very pretty in before and after pics.

 

[user 488]

Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

The answer is quite simple. Most people are too blind or don't realize the stallions are mediocre! And some just flat out don't care.......it produces color,etc.

There are all sorts of people breeding horses on here that ask about good conformation. If you don't know what good conformation (not confirmation......nobody is being confimed here

is in the first place, how do you know what to breed for?

And not to sound like a broken CD........but how many people here would actually stand up and say that their horse is mediocre? It's not going to happen and it's not going to change.

 

[rockin r]

I may not have TOP quality horses, and I am not barn blind either. But, I can not afford to have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ horses. The horses I do have I paid a price for. If I want to breed them I will. I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well. I don't breed just to sell them. They are better taken care than I take of myself. For me it is the love of the horses and their companionship that I got into minis. I am of no threat to you BIG breeders, and some of the horses from BIG names, that everyone druels over in my opionion, well I'll keep that to myself. Not to be mean but (it hurts don't it!!!)

. No one like to hear their horse is pet or mediocre quality. My point is, to me beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what you might think is Mediocre, to me is wonderful!!

:

 

[Jill]

Part of the problem too is that for SOME REASON, with minis, people jump into breeding right off the bat without knowing much of anything about horses let alone minis. They don't know good horsemanship and they do not know how to evaluate conformation or to take it a step further and also evaluate TYPE. A horse can be conformationally very correct but not be typy and that's important in my book.

Another part is that ego thing. It does feel elite to have a stallion especially when you are new to miniatures. However, how elite is it really when we nearly all have our own stallion or two?

The way I see it, if you do not have good reason to know your stallion is National halter calibur, why keep him whole? In this day and age, there are very good stallions available either to own or to breed to. There are already soooooooooooo many minis being made, so it's important to do everything you can to produce top notch animals.

Cute just isn't enough. All minis are cute.

 

[mountain_waif]

I....

 

[wiccanz]

Simply answer to your question, is because they can!

We took the big step of gelding our stallion earlier this year. It all started when we visited the World Show in October, some of the horses we saw there made our eyes water! And we decided right then and there that if we were really serious about breeding, and improving the breed down this end of the world (and it needs some improving

: ), then it was foolish to use a less-than-perfect stallion.

We love our little guy to bits

: , and we pondered long and hard over our decision, but at the end of the day, we decided he just wasn't good enough. Plus, the only foal he has produced to date is a much better horse (in our opinion) than either of his parents. And that, to me, is the whole point of breeding. Always breed 'up'.

Something else struck me the other day about this - if the stallion out in your paddock was gelded tomorrow, would he make it in the show ring against the geldings out there now?? If the answer is no, then why on earth would you want to breed from him?? :new_shocked:

Now, we have a great gelding that we will have great fun showing and driving and enjoying for the cool little horse that he is. :bgrin

 

[nootka]

I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well.

This is not part of the "problem" I see with the vast majority of "mediocrity." Yes, some of these horses may end up in the market at some point, even though you intend to keep them, but really, you're not adding to the huge pool of "so so" out there that tends to water down the entire market save an elite few.

It is disappointing to me to see so many pursuing color with no real prejudice towards nice conformation, but that is their choice, and they do sell a lot of them.

There is one breeder in this state that sells a LOT of horses. They breed for color, basically, and they do high volume sales. I know for a fact that they don't get "top dollar" prices even though they'd like you to think they do, because they may just stumble onto someone that doesn't know better, who will indeed give them that top dollar, but that is the exception, not the rule in this case. I've been to their farm and there is every color under the rainbow, and then some. There is also a pronounced lack of care towards type, and going with that is a higher than average proportion of dwarfs, very poorly conformed horses. I can't stop them from breeding, and my one or two horses per year really don't stand out much in the crowd being plain solids, yet my horses are reasonably correct and nicely proportioned (IMHO, feel free to look at my site and judge for yourself). Not perfect, and maybe not National Halter quality in every case, but approaching it and I have gotten some unsolicited compliments from people with nothing to sell me on the quality of my horses.

While I hate to think that I would want to leave the breeding/stallion owning to those with large sums of money to invest, it appears to me at this point in my life, that in my best interest is to solicit local stallions for my breeding, since I can't really have my own stallion right now for several reasons. I am lucky in that there are a lot of gorgeous stallions to choose from.

A great stallion is not going to "only cost $250" or even $1000, he's going to cost you several stud fees' worth at the LEAST, and that is not to be unexpected, IMO.

I've been guilty of having a mediocre stallion. I woke up and sold him and gelded him (2X over!).

I'm constantly learning about my preferences in type, and just when I think I have it figured out, I find out a stallion doesn't really fit into my lifestyle right now, nor my budget! *LOL*

But I am not going to balk at spending $750 on up for a quality stud service for my quality mare.

Eh, I'm rambling, but I was thinking a lot about this while I was working in the barn today.

Liz M.

 

[cowgurl_up]

: Wow this is a really good topic as it hits with something that I am facing right now! I agree that there are lot of not needed stallions in the mini world. I am new to the breed and am very suprised to see how many there are and have come to the conclusion that it is because they are easy to keep and handle. Now in the bigger horses, unless it is a phenominal colt, it is gelded before or just after it is weaned. In fact, geldings are usually worth more and easier to sell then a stud colt because the buyer doesn't want to have to pay to geld it. People want horse they can trust. With minis, they are so small that they are not hard to contol, even as a stud.

I guess I am just as guilty as the first mini I have is a yearling stallion. I have not decided if I am going to keep him one or geld him. I am going to let his show results at the end of this year and next year influnce me if it is worth it or not. Also, it depends on other people. If I have a lot of requests for babies out of him or to book breedings with him then that will also reflect on my concluding thoughts on him. I think that is the other reason why every one leaves them a stallion, they are hoping to make money off of him, whether it be by selling his foals or by breeding to outside mares. To me, if there is a market for his foals then it is alright, but if you are having to keep or basically give away the foals then it is not worth it.

I agree, work to better the breed!!!!!

 

[Reble]

Ok, I also have been taught you are only have one chance in life, and I want to be remembered as having a heart.

Just my own opionion. Thought and seen this since I have started in miniature horses. Does take time to learn and know what to look for. In time we all do understand the best of the best.

I have seen and know people that go to the Nationals, and area shows, and win not because of their horses comfirmation put because the judges have gotten to know the name.

Not to start any agrument, but what you see is different than what others see.

Again Buckeroo was a good example someone seen something in him no one else did.

I think it is the judging at the shows is where it should start.

I also notice prices are sometimes just outrages, when the price on bigger horses have declined with such beautiful horses all the way around.

So we should not be the judge, just because they have a dream. Everyone starts here.

:

Not all horses can jump, drive and do great at obstacles, just because of good confirmation. Every horse should have a purpose for breeding. Again my opinion.

Thanks for letting me share my opionion, we all can learn, and thank goodness we do start to learn to have an eye for the good well put together miniature horse.

:saludando:

 

[slaneyrose]

Smoothez....I read saw that thread with the stallion who was critiqued last year and thought he had really improved.....and was very nice...in fact nicer than some I know of who boast about their stallions when in fact they are known for passing on club feet.....and I have seen many other miniatures improve with maturity and good feed (even going on to do really well in the show ring when they didnt previously) as have other more experienced breeders on here that have even used these ones to teach the youths about conformation so obviously you cant necessarily know if a yearling is going to be stallion material or not unless its an obvious fault that wont correct itself. Some horses are born with bites that are off and they correct themselves......we have all seen the gangly yearling that looks like his 2 front legs are coming out of the same hole who as a four year old has perfect straight legs.

There are so many WONDERFUL stallions out there, with everything to offer.

This is true and I agree that only good stallions should be used but the mare has 50% of the responsibility too so using one to compliment the other is more important in my opinion. And then there is the problem of the gene pool. In the States you probably dont have this problem now but in U.K a few years ago, the British Miniature Horse Society had to open its stud book to hardshipping because the gene pool was so small!! Here in Ireland we have a society (a new one) that hopes to address these problems by having stud book 1 and 2 (1 as approved breeding stock both mares and stallions, and 2 for those who havent qualified for book 1 and therefore shouldnt be bred from)

 

[nootka]

Yeah, but good feed and conditioning does NOT change basic poor conformation, nor does it turn a "so so" horse into a National Champion, or of that caliber.

many horses who've sired National Champions have not been themselves. I happen to know that most of these stallions were admired by MANY.

Someone pointed out that Buckeroo "someone saw something in him that noone else did." He himself was a multiple champion, and I think he was greatly noticed, hence his $100K selling price even in the early 80's. Myself, I think people DO notice good proportions and correct conformation (correct conformation does not necessarily MEAN a horse will be able to jump, drive, etc., but it IS the best place to start for EVERY purpose of a horse, whether you intend to stare at it in your pasture all its life or take it to the World), they think it's out of their reach, but if they were realistic, and put away the $1500 or so that they would spend on a cheap colt, as well as the care money, they would have themselves a great start on a stud fee for a good quality mare.

Just my feelings,

Liz M.

 

[Reble]

Just food for thought,

Example in producing great confirmation.

I know that Scotch Collie Dogs have been bred to get better fine bone structure.

What has happened in the States, I know personally, have had great breeders contact me, and want to have the old Lassie type bloodline, because of the defects are now showing up in their breed.

WE never know do we?

 

[tagalong]

This is true and I agree that only good stallions should be used but the mare has 50% of the responsibility too so using one to compliment the other is more important in my opinion.

But as a mare can have but one faol a year - and a stallion can sire many - they are thus held more to task...

Falling back on the old "well the judges only pick by names of handlers and farms etc." is simply another cop-out IMHO. I have seen many VERY nice horses do very well with Not Well Known handlers and farms.

The big name trainers wind up with fancy horses as they know what they are looking for - unlike your Uncle Joe who thinks your stallion is "cute".

The argument about "performance" horses not needing to be halter horses (read "correct") ... is also a bit murky. Form follows function. The horse should look good moving as well as standing still. If not - GELD HIM. No matter what "lines" he is from - just because he is a Buckeroo does not mean he is THE Buckeroo....

I have never understood WHY so many people even want stallions. With big horses it is a bit less convenient - but it happens there, too. QH stallions with looooong backs, steep croups and thick necks... that would have made awesome geldings. But everyone simply has to have their own "herd sire". WHY? I am always lobbying for excellent geldings to be made of our excellent herd sire's sons. And some have been exactly that. Our "herd sire" could get clipped up a bit - strut into the show ring this summer - and do very well. He has not been near a show in 4 or 5 years. How many "herd sires" out there can that be said of? And no - I am not barn blind... he has the credentials to prove that.

Anyway - I agree with the original post - I see way too many mediocre stallions out there... and when one's goal as a breeder IS to improve the breed, we need to look past colour and cute and lines and a myriad of other influences... and examine the individual. It speaks poorly of the breed that stallion classes are waaaay bigger than the gelding classes. As has been said many times in many threads - the true mark of a good breeding program is the quality of your geldings....

No one needs to be breeding low quality stock - whether mares or stallions.

But too many people say it's not my fault - not my problem.... I'll do what I please - and then complain mightily about prices and too many minis....

All the above is JMHO. YMMV...

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