Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions

[Michelle@wescofarms]

It's always the other breeder that is breeding the wrong minis isn't it? The big breeders blame the backyard breeder, the backyard or small breeder blame the big guys - well you know what we're all responsible for every mini we breed!

If one breeder has one hundred good to great foals and one hundred breeders each have one mediocre to good foal - where is the problem? (And yes the situation can be reversed).

I always see people say they're only breeding for themselves - well what if you get sick or die - those minis will end up on the market! I don't like that attitude any better than the big breeder that breeds any mare that is over 2 that has a working uterus! You should most definitely breed what you like, but some adherence to the breed standard is called for!

Education is the ticket there. Most breeders do not educate buyers on what makes a good breeding horse. I'm as guilty of that as anyone in my first few years - bad advice given to me was passed along to others. Mentoring newbies would be great for those that do truly want to learn and want to breed better minis.

Personally, I've been trying - gelding some stallions, pet homes for mares or retiring them. Last week I bought back a colt that should have been sold as a gelding four years ago, but wasn't. Well he's here and getting gelded soon. I've gelding some of the boys that just aren't meeting my criteria for breeding (we have three more coming up), including one that his foals just aren't floating my boat. I'm also holding off on breeding our mares. They will be bred when they're 4 years old or later.

But as to critiquing horse's via a photo - no way! It is hard to judge a horse or horses by photos - how many of us would like to be judged by our high school graduation photo or driver's license photo or candid shot? It really is important from a marketing standpoint to have great photos of stallions - I'm very guilty of having crap photos of mine. It just hasn't been in the budget, but we're working on it this year too. The professional photos are really worth the money.

As for this statement -

If you want to know how your horse will perform in a confirmation class then go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites and if you can not honestly say that your horse can stand along side their horses in the show ring and you would not be embarrased to be there then maybe just maybe you have something. But if you are embarrased then it is time to geld. Sorry now it is time for me to step down off my Sounding Platform.

In a conformation class, 9 out of 10 times it is the talent of the trainer (professional or otherwise) to bring out the best in that horse - not that they could necessarily take a crap horse in and win, but I've seen horses shown by their owners, place higher (and no I'm not saying it was the judges) it really was the trainers ability to get the most out of that individual. That is their job and they should be able to do that or they shouldn't be getting paid!

I know when visitors come here - the individuals that we have clipped, conditioned, etc., are the ones they go 'oh' over - not that that horse is better he just looks better at that moment. One of my stallions will never look great as a previous owner allowed his crest to break, so he always looks funny. Right now he's greyhound thin from pacing the fence (mares not food on the brain) and I told someone here the other day that he looked like a feedlot horse to me. Fortunately she liked his two foal crops we've had from him, and she bought a mare in foal to him and wants to breed back another.

That is my criteria for a good stallion what he can add to our breeding program!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

:aktion033: That is my criteria for a good stallion what he can add to our breeding program!

:aktion033:

Michelle- ABSOLUTELY!!

Any stallion, however perfect, is only as good as his performance in the breeding shed!!

I have one mare here who I could never sell as her only worth is on the foals she breeds- to look at her, you would not, apart from her lovely head, give her a second glance!!

Now, I would not use her if she were a stallion, it's true, but

Handsome is as Handsome does.

If he cannot produce the goods it does not matter how well he has done in the ring

:

 

[Jill]

Okay, probably I need another cup of coffee but several people here have basically said your horses might be National Champion material but you don't want to show. Really? If you really think that then I think you'd put your horse where your mouth is. It's easy to brag about your stallion's quality when you know you're not really going to put him in a position to prove it.

 

[Jill]

I take it black.

I know there are quality horses that never enter the show ring, however, I do think if some of the people who elude that their horses might be National Champion caliber really believed it, they'd show the horse. Actually, if the horse did go National Champion, they could easily recoup that season's show expenses by breeding him to a couple outside mares. So, basically, they could float that horse a loan and he could pay them back if he really was such amazing quality.

 

[CharmedMinis]

QUOTEEvery horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.

And none of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.

Tagalong-- The point I was trying to make is that my stallions could probably clean up in the show ring if they were conditioned for it. The way they are right now out in my barn they wouldn't win much up against those who have been conditioned. My stallions are both correct, the one has a great show record to prove it, but right now they both have thick manes, their necks aren't sweated, bellies aren't perfectly tucked, they are lacking muscle in the right places, etc........so they aren't showing themselves to their best advantage.

Michelle said some of it better when she said:

In a conformation class, 9 out of 10 times it is the talent of the trainer (professional or otherwise) to bring out the best in that horse - not that they could necessarily take a crap horse in and win, but I've seen horses shown by their owners, place higher (and no I'm not saying it was the judges) it really was the trainers ability to get the most out of that individual. That is their job and they should be able to do that or they shouldn't be getting paid!

Jill I don't show for many reasons........

It's expensive as all

: and to me basically it's throw away money, unless you are planning on going to World/Nationals and are really trying to make a living at this. There is no pay back, it's more hobby money that I just don't have, especially with the vet bills I've had lately. We only have one good show here locally a year, not really enough to qualify for World and then world is another expense. I do everything here myself, and in the beginning planned on showing, but I just don't have time for conditioning every day, bathing, clipping perfectly, yadda yadda yadda. It's not that I don't think my stallions could win if I got them into shape, it's just that point blank, I DON'T WANT TO! It makes me sound lazy, but it's too much work and more sleepless nights!!!

 

[minisch]

AMEN !!

I believe that the "nice" responses are just perpetuating the problem and these people will continue to breed mediocre horses if we continue to tell them (because we are nice people) that they have nice horses.

I could go on my usual rant when it comes to this subject

:

 

[Jill]

Jill I don't show for many reasons........

It's expensive as all

: and to me basically it's throw away money, unless you are planning on going to World/Nationals and are really trying to make a living at this. There is no pay back, it's more hobby money that I just don't have, especially with the vet bills I've had lately. We only have one good show here locally a year, not really enough to qualify for World and then world is another expense. I do everything here myself, and in the beginning planned on showing, but I just don't have time for conditioning every day, bathing, clipping perfectly, yadda yadda yadda. It's not that I don't think my stallions could win if I got them into shape, it's just that point blank, I DON'T WANT TO! It makes me sound lazy, but it's too much work and more sleepless nights!!!

I understand it is expensive, and it is A LOT of work. For me, the real "expense" is my time into conditioning and the time away from home when I do show. I can relate that there are considerations including time and money. However, if a person thinks they have a National Champion caliber horse, my God, doesn't that inspire a great deal of motivation? If they really, truly think that's what is in their barn?

 

[Jill]

 

[Annetta]

I do think if some of the people who elude that their horses might be National Champion caliber really believed it, they'd show the horse. Actually, if the horse did go National Champion, they could easily recoup that season's show expenses by breeding him to a couple outside mares. So, basically, they could float that horse a loan and he could pay them back if he really was such amazing quality.

Really, Jill, do you have any concept of what it means to have no extra money? I don't think you do! There are people who have no investments that they can cash in to get some extra fun money--when they say they have no money, they mean they have no money, they don't mean that they have no money unless they go to the bank and transfer some money from savings into their chequing account. No money means no money & I find that many people can't comprehend that. I've been there. I not have a "rainy day fund" that I can dip into if I need some costly veterinary work, or if my car breaks down, or if my well packs it in. My credit is good so I can get work done even if the cost of the work exceeds the balance in my rainy day fund. Everyone and everything is well looked after here. Would I spend that rainy day fund to take horses to the big shows? Hardly. I know people that can put all the hauling/show expenses on a charge card, then after the show work extra shifts to pay off the charge card quickly. Personally I don't have that option. I have a salary job, no extra shifts, no over time pay, no holiday bonuses. When I charge things I can't afford, those charges stay on my card for a long time until I get them whittled down.
Do I have horses I think ar national quality? Don't know--I don't much think about it. They're all nice horses, but I own them for me and any I raise are pretty much for me--and in saying that I in no way mean that I'm not raising quality, I do know how to judge horses & don't go for poorly conformed ones! If for some reason, Michelle, my horses had to be sold, they wouldn't be a detriment to the Miniature breed.

: Who knows what some of them might do if I were to place them with a big name trainer. With me showing them, no, I don't imagine they'd go all that far, because my heart really isn't in showing.

I have been to a lot of shows, including R nationals one year, and I have visited a lot of farms and seen a lot of horses. Leaving my own horses out of it completely, Jill, I have to say that there are quality horses out there that have never seen the show ring and probably never will. If these horses were to be shown, assuming they were properly conditioned & presented, I personally believe they could make names for themselves. I always find it so snobbish when people state, like you have here, that if a horse were truly worth showing as the owner claims it is, then the owner would be showing it.

: Sometimes, it just isn't that easy!

 

[Jill]

Why would someone with no money have something as un-essensial and luxurious as a HORSE?

Over the years, I have been floored to read people here going on about things such as vehicles being repossessed, yet they own horses.

If I had no extra money, I would not have horses period. And, trust me, I do not have money coming out my ears and I know what it's like to not have the money to do everything you would like to do. I think just about everyone does.

I actually said that I know there are show quality horses who will not ever show. I may even own a few of those. However, it is awful easy to elude that you have a National Champion quality horse when you know you will not ever be in a position to prove it.

Really, I am not trying to be elitist at all. There are people here who own horses finer than those I will probably ever own. But, I just cannot stand it when people with average type horses sit back and blow smoke about what that horse would do if it ever went to a show.

I am thinking just as much about people I speak to personally as some of what I have read here over the years.

 

[Annetta]

ha ha, for someone that doesn't want to be elitist, you're doing a fine job now IMO.

Why would someone one with no money have horses? Hm, perhaps some have no money to spare because they have horses?? Personally speaking, my horses are my chosen hobby. They get looked after, and like I said in my earlier post, I do have a fund for emergencies. My careful budget covers the routine things like hay, feed, barnyard upkeep. There isn't necessarily extra money for buying more horses, no matter how much one may take my fancy, nor is there money to spare for hauling 1000 miles to a show, nor for training fees to get a couple horses "out there" to show. I don't go on holidays--no ski trips, no cruises, nowhere. Instead my "holiday" consists of a couple weeks off of work, staying home & spending extra time driving my horses around the country side.

But now you're saying that because I (and others like me) have no money for showing in the big time that I (we) shouldn't have horses at all? And that Oh come on, that is the most snobbish thing I've heard on here in a long, long time. Yeesh. "No money" doesn't mean I'm having my car repossessed, or that my animals are starving, or that my kids are going to school barefoot with no lunch.

:

 

[Jill]

Um, no, I didn't say that people who have no money for showing shouldn't have horses. I'm saying if someone has no extra money, they probably shouldn't have horses.

Just thinking back on many of your other posts on this board, I have to say that horses are not your only hobby

If you honestly read what I said, I don't see where there is room for the kind of interpretations you are drawing.

 

[Danielle_E.]

This is a very interesting thread and here are my two cents worth.

I am sorry I agree with many that "some" of the stallions that I have seen my reaction has been "why are they using him as a stallion?". Now in all fairness to some posting these pictures of very "hairy" stallions, I usually sit back after my initial reaction and try and picture the horse cleaned up and clipped to see if I am missing something. Sometimes I can see the quality there and sometimes unfortunately it's not there and my initial reaction is the same. Now having said that I have two stallions, one of which I believe is "Nationals" quality in his conformation and movement, the other is not, but I am not barn blind to this. He is "cute" and his conformation is "good" but he doesn't have the "motion" the other one has BUT that is where you have to balance things out in the breeding shed and ensure that a sutd like that is used on a mare that compliments him. I believe that some that are breeding aren't looking enough to "enhancing" the breed by choosing a partner for the stallion that will give the "added" qualities you are looking for. Breeding just for the sake of breeding is not what I am looking to do and that is why I am picky as to who gets bred to who. I plan on breeding Crystal, my Hawk daughter to my stallion "Dancer" and that combination should be a very well bred foal with "motion" to burn. Abby has been bred to my other stallion and she is expecting a foal anytime and I am anxious to see the cross that will be produced. Abby is a beautiful mare with "arabian" style, high trot and tail carriage.... It's unfortunate but Abby doesn't like my other stallion Dancer at all!!! So I won't be breeding her to him even though I know that the resulting foal would be wonderful. So, once her foal is on the ground I will evaluate the foal and see if this stallion crossed with an great mare can produce what I want. If it's not what I want then I will be gelding that stallion and keeping just the one for now and will look to buy another stallion. I think it all boils down to what you are trying to accomplish with your breeding program. Some wish to produce foals that are healthy, correct and geared more to famlies that wish to take them to local shows and have fun and perhaps win in that forum and I think that's great. Others are wanting to try and produce the next "National" champion and that is great to. What I don't agree with is those that are breeding LARGE foal crops with horses that are known to have genetic problems and please notice the word "knowing". If you knowingly are breeding a stallion that "consistently" produces a problem then that stallion should be gelded immediately because then the individual is guilty, in my eyes, of not having the best interest of the breed at heart and basically it becomes a "profit" business only.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.

And none of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.

Just for the record none of my horses have ever worn sweats and have shown at the National level and come hom with ribbons in Halter classes big ones at that in fact I was thinking of getting a throat latch sweat for this year but am a bit embarrassed to say I dont even know how to use one

:

and while this is a bit off subject Rabbit I dont know exactly where you are in comparison to the places with the many imported American horses I have seen and know were exported from here but to say they are disappointing? WOW I have seen some amazing horses exported. Well again perhaps a few are not but obviously quality is in the eye of the beholder what one thinks is a top stallion others may find not even to be a competitive gelding-and to me there lies the whole problem- And yes I have been part of the problem I can be honest and admit that. I was one who said no room for geldings here well now I have 4 out of 15 horses that are geldings with number 5 getting closer to being gelded each day lol

My stallion isnt the best horse out there he has flaws like every horse however.. not only has he proven he can cut in in the show ring(even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show) but his bloodlines have been proven to be consistent over and over again in the breeding shed as well.

Jill I do understand what you are saying and I am one with little money. We do 2 local shows to qualify for Nationals and save up all year to go it isnt easy.

I think I am hearing from you the frustration comes from those that have never been to a show or a big show anyway and comment on the horses at shows and such?

Bottom line is there will always be people with stallions I feel are way to icky to breed (and some might think that about mine) all you can do is educate yourself and continue to do so. LIsten to others (who you respect) opinoins and find those what will be honest with you not say what you want to hear, and be able to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day knowing your ego didnt get in the way of the Miniature horse breed today.

 

[Margaret]

There are a few, (oldies but goodies) people on here that can provide a honest critique, on a given horse, without sugar coating it,- I have found. They know what to look for, as they have been showing alot, much of their lives. I have Pmed these people on more than one occasion, and know that they are giving me their honest opinion. Too much of the time when someone askes for a critique on the forum, the truth about conformation gets lost in all of the compliments.

:

 

[wcr]

This forum is an excellent resource for all mini enthusiasts and there is a huge range in experience and abilities. Learn what you can, listen to advice and pick what works best for you.

That said, it falls to all of us to be responsible breeders. Not everyone can breed national quality foals or afford to show to that extent. I am a single woman financing my own obsessions but I have bred many top quality horses that have beat out the big guys and have been shown at top levels. That has always been my goal to breed to improve the breed.

As hard as it is to do, sometimes we need to step back from our emotions and take a good hard look at the horses we are breeding and reevaluate our goals. It costs as much to keep a good horse as it does to keep a less than quality individual. The only difference is the buying price or the breeding price if you go to outside stallions. Mare quality is greatly underrated in most breeding programs. It has always been my practice to own a few of the best quality horses I could afford. Save your money and put it in good quality stock. Educate yourself or seek the advice of someone knowledgable that you trust before paying big bucks for horses so you are not one of the people that just spend big money and get less than what you paid for.

All horses have flaws and breeding 2 top individuals doesn't gaurantee you will get the next national champion and you will have differences in quality even between full siblings. Breeding can be a crapshoot but with education and experience you can turn out some top horses that either you or a buyer can show with success.

 

[tagalong]

All horses have flaws and breeding 2 top individuals doesn't gaurantee you will get the next national champion and you will have differences in quality even between full siblings. Breeding can be a crapshoot but with education and experience you can turn out some top horses that either you or a buyer can show with success.

Exactly right...

[SIZE=18pt]Breed the best to the best... [/SIZE]

and hope for the best.

As I said upthread... just because a horse may be "a Buckeroo!" (or any other breeding people seek) does not mean that he is good...

And when low quality minis are flooding the market.... who is to blame? All of us. Not just the "big" farms... but the small breeders, too.

 

[strass]

(even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)

Um? Can I ask for some clarification on that?

 

[SmoothEZ]

Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.

And for those that are new to the breed and want to get into the miniature horses, take the time to do the research and don't just jump at the first horse that is offered your way. For all the old hats take the time to mentor the new ones and show then what the breed is all about.

I think Michele Wesco said it perfectly we are all responsible for what we breed. Whether it is the next National Show Champion that is being shown or the next pet quality horse that will remain someones trusted agent for the rest of their lives. We are what we breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :new_shocked:

I agree that you can not always tell alot about a horse from a photo but I can tell you most people can make a decision to either buy or not buy from a photo. You guys do it every day. That is what the sale board is for. And how many of you can honestly say that they have bought a horse from a photo and were 1000% happy with what they got?

I agree that education is the key to evaluating your herd for culls and I also agree that the problem is not with just the backyard breeder. I have seen lots and lots of horses that come from the top breeders in the country that I wouldn't pay 2 cents for. But I also agree that good training and good handling can bring out the best in a horse.

I didn't mean to start any wars on here but I am glad to see the constructive comments that are being posted and everyone has an opinion and they should all be heard. :aktion033:

 

[Dallas]

I have to agree with what Rockin R said. My stallion that I currently own isnt 100% but no horse is. He still is rather correct considering and makes one heck of a driving/performance horse. He even has a great disposition to boot. I have bred him once but am not even sure the mare took as she was sold soon thereafter. Yes I am planning on breeding him again in the future to a quality mare, any foals bred would be with the intention of keeping. As far as big horses go I know a lady who has a black arab stallion she is breeding to less then mediocre mares and the stud isn't correct himself. Says he has good breeding and the extreme swayback he has is from being ridden young.

: On a different note though most people judge minis on the arab type so when a QH type mini has a thicker neck then that of an arab type, so many people say you need to sweat it etc. Or comment that he is too thick or whatever. As someone else said we all have our likes and dislikes.

Alisa,

Thanks for telling my mom about this forum!

~Dallas