Why do some people sell with no papers?

[New_Image]

Ive seen quite a few ads that will say "$800 with papers or $650 with out"

I dont get why any one would give the option of selling a registered animal as a grade horse - If they are will to take the lower price why not let the person have the horses papers too, what does it matter to them?

I must be missing something - Just always wondered if there is a good reason.

 

[Crossbuck Farms]

Simple some people just want pets. Or maybe they just do 4-H and local shows where papers really mean nothing. I know a grade QH cross that can kick butt at WP.

 

[disneyhorse]

I am thinking... some breeders never bother to register their stock until they have a buyer that wants the papers. Then they have to pay extra for the late registration, so that's probably why.

Andrea

 

[nootka]

I don't care what the purpose, the papers are a valuable tool for tracking and identifying the animal.

Yeah, if it's "just" a pet, maybe that current owner doesn't "need" those papers, but it's smart and respectful to keep those papers current and ready to go should they decide to sell or give away the animal, etc.

I'm not putting anyone down, just think that it's irresponsible for someone to keep papers on a horse they are selling as a "pet." If they are eligible, why not pay the $20 and give them that extra value (yeah, I know, some people have no worth for papers or need for them, but it is the horse I'm thining about).

I had a filly I sold as a pet only, but as soon as she is paid for, the owner will receive the papers for her for both registries. I think my mare deserves that, at the least.

If you have to have different prices for with and without, I think you should rethink the reason you are breeding in the first place, and maybe your breeding choices. Maybe that sounds harsh, but I don't see why there should be two different prices. It is the SAME darn horse.

Just my .02,

Liz M.

 

[New_Image]

Liz M I agree. Papers are a useful tool even if the owners dont plan to breed to show but especially when you have a grade horse whos been "10 for 5 years"

 

[Miniv]

Two thoughts.....It kind of goes in line with selling a colt on a gelding contract for less $.

This is also done in the dog world. We agreed to neuter him, and were basically gifted a beautiful champion quality golden retriever pup from a friend without papers. For us, it was a dream come true.....

MA

 

[~Palomino~]

I agree with you! Rather people want as pets or not, all minis should be papered, cause about 90% of those people who get pets, end up wanting a miniature horse baby, then that baby goes to someone else and they want a miniature horse baby, pretty soon we will end up with all these unregistered minis, and the registeries I bet will be closed in about 5 years! I think having papers pet or not is a good idea, JMHO!! if all the horses in the world were registerd, then there would never be unregistered minis, if everyone took care of what they are saposed to do!

Editied to say: I made this sound like I am TOTALLY against it! I am not totally suportive of it, but my great Freind Bambi allways has a couple of unregisterd minis, and I am not against it! I am just saying I wish everyone would try and keep the horses registered, and that I will never have an unregistered pet, unless I was planning on hardshipping it!

-Gage-

 

[Frankie]

I agree with all that is said to a point. But what if it is pet quality only and shouldn't be bred?

 

[~Palomino~]

I agree with all that is said to a point. But what if it is pet quality only and shouldn't be bred?

488504[/snapback]

​

thats true, but I think if it was a boy, i would geld it before I sold it! but for the girls, some people dont care if there horses are qaulity/papered, and they will breed them anyway! after all, looking back at when the breed was just beginning, there was some sgrabby looking minis,and it just got better and better and better!!

-Gage-

 

[yellerroseintx]

I went to an auction today and about 20 plus minis..mostly colts and studs...some filly yearlings, all sold without thier papers....they were from a big breeder with high dollar horses and these were the ones that did not sell...sooooo..off to auction and the papers were destroyed to 'protect' this breeders name/lineage. We actually bought a mare last year from this same lot.....I did see her lineage then but thats all...so basically nada....but I like the mare and am happy with her, papers or not. Strange way to do business IMO..such a shame

 

[minimule]

But what if it is pet quality only and shouldn't be bred

It isn't going to make a difference to a lot of folks out there if the horse has papers or not. If they want to breed it they will. Why else would there be so many want ads that read: " wanted, filly or mare, with or without papers, bred OK, less than $800. "

I've sold a couple of horses WITH papers that have never been transfered to the new owner and I doubt they ever will be.

 

[nootka]

Aside from lifelong homes, I just don't know where it helps an animal to keep its papers and not give them to the new owner.

What if that owner wants to show their "pet" and I do know many "just pets" that have ended up being Champions in certain performance classes, probably halter, too.

A pet quality miniature with the right talents can certainly show in many performance classes such as Jumping, Hunter, Showmanship, In hand Obstacle, Driving Classes, Liberty, etc.

I don't think it's a good idea that breeders have this method of "culling" is all. Yeah, there are many that are born that should not be breeding, but that does not end their valuable lives and also make them ineligible or unworthy of registration.

It would be nice if the registries had things they could add to the papers such as "non breeding stock" or have a special section/note for dwarfed ones, much as they add to Gelding papers. I really would have spayed the little mare I sold, if it were a viable option, but it wasn't, and so I have to trust in the home I sold her to. I asked the registries about noting on her papers that she was not to be bred, however, they said they don't do such a thing.

I still think it is best to keep the papers current and intact on even the lowliest of pets.

Liz M.

 

[Minimor]

Unfortunately, selling a horse with papers does not guarantee that those papers are going to be kept current & up to date. My first two little boys came with papers which were still in the name of the original owner--and there had been 3 owners between that original owner & me. This is something that bugs me.

And no, I won't sell our Minis without papers. They either go with papers at registered price, or they don't go at all. Recently I had someone ask to buy a gelding without his papers for less, "a lot less" than his asking price because papers didn't matter to this person. I said no, he's too nice to sell as unregistered and he's worth his asking price.

I have to disagree that a horse sold at a discounted price as a pet only should always go with papers. What a good way for someone to get a show horse at pet price. Buyer says "I want a pet only, papers don't matter, will you discount the price for me?" Seller says sure, you want a pet, have him for this low price, but I don't want to sell as unregistered so here are the papers anyway. Sneaky buyer then has papers & can go showing or breeding....certainly that wouldn't always happen, but there are enough sneaky people out there that would certainly try this ploy!

 

[Relic]

l guess we are in that irresponsible group because we do sell some of ours for much less if the buyer has no interest in papers or the horse just isn't up to par.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

We sell all our minis with papers regardless if they're a pet or not. It isn't a guarantee for a good future, but I hope that people that buy will give them a lifetime home, or if not at least that the papers will go with the horse. IT is hard as you cannot control what a buyer will do with a horse in the future. We try to stay in touch with them and do encourage they put all horses in their names ASAP.

That is my big issue - getting people that buy our horses to put the horse in their name. Short of doing it ourselves we haven't found a good way. (We give them the papers along with all the transfers/worksheets with everything highlighted too.) Yet many do not follow through and a number are still in our names.

I do know a number of breeders that sell the lesser quality minis at auction or without papers as they say it will protect their breeding herd's reputation of only producing top quality. I'm not going to judge what someone else does, but it isn't the route I'm choosing to take with our horses.

I also can't compare this to dogs/cats selling with no papers as they're both easily spayed/neutered - spaying minis isn't an option yet.

 

[Ashley]

all of our horses sell with papers, its up to the buyer or not if they want them.

We have some take them some not. We have sold most of our horses as pets, and if you go into the stud books, most of them horses are still in our name. My first baby went as a pet, he would be comeing up on 6. We sold him as a yearling, papers are still in our name.

I did a look up to see who currently owned a foal my aunt had a long long time ago, still in her name.

 

[mistyrose]

If I sell a horse without papers, it means they should not be considered for breeding for what ever reason. It has only happened a number of times.

A lot of times selling horses with papers it hasn't mattered. Those horses have never been transfered out of my name. I usually transfer the papers on horses sold on the farm as pets myself.

 

[New_Image]

Unfortunately, selling a horse with papers does not guarantee that those papers are going to be kept current & up to date.

True, but the way I see it is its nice to have a birth date at the very least on the horse. Also, the sire and dam are always on the papers which doesnt change with or with out updated papers.

And on another train of though, Maybe the buyer doesnt care about papers but when he goes to sell the horse a few years down the road the next buyer might have liked to see them, so if the horse is able to be registered, I dont get why some one would sell them with out.

 

[shminifancier]

What is papers? It is just a piece of paper to hang on the wall to dust...Now if showing,, breeding, what not ya papers are important..But as just for a pet no big deal, and as pet buyer myself coming up, well there are sooo many other registries available up to 20 or more for minis and even some just for Grade horses. Anybody at Any time can get a Piece of paper to hang on the wall to collect dust;.

 

[wcr]

This thread has interesting potential. Unfortunately minis are small and cute and easily cared for as a pet. I think that opens up a lot of concerns for serious breeders and supporters of minis. You don't often hear people wanting to buy large horses for"pets" and they are considered an investment or an agricultural product and the paper issue is of importance to keep with that animal. By selling minis without papers we are losing a valuable tool to track bloodlines. We can't be accountable for what buyers do about papers but I think we have a responsibilty to maintain that continuity.

This brings up the whole hardshipping question. Because of these practices there are a lot of well bred horses out there without papers. I think minis are the one breed that you could find your diamond in the rough sitting in someones backyard because papers have gone astray. Do we close the registry and lose these horses or keep them open to allow these horses back in that should have been registered all along? I have a drop dead gorgeous filly sitting in my pasture that should be shown that has registered parents, stallion reports turned in, everthing documented that this is the filly I say she is but AMHA won't register her because the owner of the mare didn't DNA the dam and she died. Something is wrong with this picture.

If a breeder wants to cull foals without papers then they shouldn't be breeding in the first place. If they aren't to your standards then don't put your prefix on them. Be honest about the quality you are breeding as not all crosses are successful.

As for discounting colts sold on a gelding contract, I think this is a silly practice. If you are willing to take less money for colt then take the offer and be done with it. We shouldn't dictate what others chose to do with their horses as we don't know what their breeding program is geared for and there is always some niche where a horse can excel. I have the knowledge and experience to train a performance horse that could potentially go on to be a world or national champion. Okay, that horse might not be someone's idea of a halter horse but does it make that horse any less valuable if it has performance capabilities?