winter laminitis What information can you share?

[barnbum]

Facts: Mazie, age 5, was diagnosed with laminitis by my farrier. I trust my farrier--he's amazing; he got Rosie through her laminitis years ago with flying colors (spring grass). Rosie is a full sister to Mazie, by the way. She's sound as can be. I know there are different opinions on this situation, from my research so far, and would like to hear of any experiences you have. My farrier has been here to trim her at an angle to aid her comfort. He is returning March 10th to check her again. His advice is to keep her stalled on deep shavings because too much walking on hard (frozen) surfaces can cause more damage. He said he wouldn't give Banamine because he doesn't want her to feel too good and walk too much. I had been giving her 250 lb dose every 24 hours. I also bought Gastroguard and gave her a dose of that yesterday. He also advises to drastically cut her hay intake--to 20 min of eating twice a day while I soak her front hooves in cold water. And to stop all other food sources, which is only a daily treat, Triple Crown 30--1 tbsp. twice a day and her hay pellets--half a cup twice a day. When the horses didn't drink enough water in these freezing cold temps, I'd give them 10 baby carrots at night to keep fluids in them. It seems to help ward off colic. No more of those.

I'm giving her more hay than he suggested because it's so cold--10* today. Wind chill tomorrow is going to be -15*. She's content enough stalled during the day because she has a huge stall with mats and shavings and she can see her pals if they wander to the front pasture/run-in. I just don't like it that she can't get to the heated water bucket during the day. But I can't solve everything. Sigh. I do leave her stall open during the night so she can get to it if she chooses.

My hay hasn't been tested, but it's late (July) first cutting. Half looks green, half is straw like.

I've read about Cushings and IR but she doesn't look at all like a horse with that--no extra long coat and she's always shed out fine. She's shedding now.

My farrier mentioned that he feels it's hormone related--that this is a risk every August to Sept and Jan-Feb when she's starting to lose her coat, and again when she's starting to grow it.

Okay, I think that's all the facts. I'll add anything I remember.

Ideas? Suggestions?

 

[chandab]

Karla, I know we've already discussed this, but forgot to add... My former farrier (he moved) also told me that my mares were likely to have more issues than the boys due to hormonal reasons.

Not that its impossible, but her age makes Cushing's unlikely; however ponies can be the poster child for IR, so IR could be a possibility. They are not the same thing, and horses do not necessarily get both. Cushings is a pituitary disfunction to put it easily, and controlled by medication (diet will also help); IR (Insulin Resistance) is similar to Type 2 diabetes in people and is controlled by diet (a very strict low sugar/starch diet).

 

[barnbum]

Is it a possibility that it's from the frigid winter we've had, combined with ice balls in her hooves? She would get them bad. I cleaned them out twice a day and more on weekends... and tried Pam and Vaseoline which didn't work.

 

[targetsmom]

Horses that are insulin resistant are at higher risk for founder so that is a definite possibility. Our mare Princess (the one driving in my avatar) is IR and has a heavy crest but we have so far managed it well with diet and supplements. My first horse with a heavy crest DID founder repeatedly and it was awful so I feel your pain. She would have really bad spells in the winter. I would get your mare tested for IR but it also wouldn't hurt to just lower the starch in her diet by keeping NSC (non-structural carbohydrate) levels to 10% or less. That means testing hay (or soaking it but in this weather I don't think so!). I got really lucky this year with local hay that tests <10%NSC. For concentrates (Princess is a an all around show mare so needs the energy) I feed her Nutrena Safe Choice Special Care which is not the lowest in NSC but works for her. She also gets soaked beet pulp with NO molasses and a supplement called Remission which helps regulate metabolism to help prevent founder. None of these would hurt her if IR is NOT the problem, the only thing is that Remission is similar to Quiessence and may have a calming effect. Princess doesn't have a heated bucket either (don't trust her with one!) but we use an insulated one filled with warm water and then topped of with more warm water at bedtime. It will likely have some ice on it tomorrow morning with temps near 0 but it won't be frozen solid. Good luck!

 

[barnbum]

Wondering where I can get hay tested. I can find out. I've gotten it from the same guy for years now. He mentioned one year that someone had it tested and it was very nutritious... that's all I remember him saying. Always first cutting--Timothy only.

 

[Marty]

Once again its a double edge sword. I also think the IR testing could help you out. I have to agree with your farrier that being forced to walk about on hard ground is all kinds of bad. A once stabilized horse can flare up pretty good on the frozen ground. I would totally opt for heavy shavings. Keeping a buddy in with her should help with anxiety. But if you get some snow, that would work for a good hour instead of having to soak her that day. However I disagree with him wanting to "feel her pain" so to speak. I know where he's coming from because that is what all the oldies used to say was the thing to do. But now a days I wouldn't do that. Its too risky because the pain can manifest in ulcers, colic, and of course the stress from the pain and of course, full blown founder so yes, I would go with pain management in a heartbeat. I'd also go for ulcer meds but to do any good it needs to be given daily for 30-40 days or so and a dose of probios is in order too. Your local agricultural office should be able to send your hay away for testing. Good call on that. As far as the carrots, be sure they are fresh and not the little frozen ones. I've been living on them since I quit smoking and found they are rinsed in chlorine and dipped in other preservative chemicals so I buy fresh. Knowing you, you probably raise a whole garden of them. Hope you get to the bottom of this. Hug that precious baby for me.

 

[targetsmom]

Google "Hay testing" to find places to send the hay. I was able to find someone through my Facebook friends that loaned me the tool to actually sample the bales. Breaking apart a few bales and mixing samples together is better than nothing. And yes, your local ag office or cooperative extension service might be able to help. Or maybe you can borrow the tool from the customer that had the hay tested. I sent mine to a testing place that offered lots of options and I think it was <$50 for many components. There were certainly cheaper options. My grass hay (2nd & 3rd cuttings) tested around 14% protein and came from less than 2 miles away. It is perfect for our youngsters and the IR mare and none of the others complain.

 

[Many minis]

I had a mare have a mild case of laminitis this summer. I put her on a product I found called resistance. It is a powder and I just wet a few hay pellets so it would stick and she gobbled it up. It has a dose for when you first find out and then a maintenance dose after that. I took a craft pad and padded her feet and wrapped with duct tape and in a week she didn't need the pads. She had a mild case. I know how you feel. You want relief for them and will try whatever sounds reasonable. I found this product at my local feed supplier or you can order online. Good luck. I hope winter starts to fade away for you soon.

 

[chandab]

Your local County Extension Agent should be able to help you with the hay testing, if you are lucky perhaps a local grain elevator can help or even your feed store. Equi-Analytical is the national testing lab, the Trainer test @ $54 tests hay for just about everything under the sun (so minerals can be balanced to the hay you have), but if you just want to know sugar/starch there is a package for that at about $30. http://www.equi-analytical.com/

 

[barnbum]

Good link, Chanda...but now I need a hay probe. lol I wonder if my farrier has one I can borrow. I was looking for Resistance powder--haven't found it yet. Found other stuff that might benefit. I will run supplement ideas by my farrier and vet first. Mazie was very content to be stalled yesterday. I am in the barn by 5:10 to get chores and soaking done before school. Hope she starts showing improvement soon. Thanks!

 

[little lady]

I would highly recommend Remission!

 

[lucky seven]

Barnbum, I'm having the same problem with Seven, this winter he fell and pulled his stifle then foundered on one hind and one front hoof. I had my vet do exrays and he showed rotation on both. He is no longer on any grain, stall rest. My farrier suggested plenty of shavings on his cement floor stall also. This spring I'm investing in mats to help cushion his feet. My vet also said that Seven would tell me when he was ready to go out so when he started "telling" me I started hand walking him for a few minutes and he is now up to 1 hour by himself with me watching his every step. His plowed area is heavily sanded with shavings to give him a cushion from the frozen ground. My boy was also put on a strict diet, 7 pounds of hay which I measure and feed 3 times daily to space it out. Where I buy my hay locally the farmer has so many fields that buying hay is pot luck, some hay the boys like better than other bales. He stuck his nose up at the grassier bale and wanted the courser hay that looked like it had some straw in it. They are fussier than kids when it comes to eating! With no grain they both get chopped up carrots and their water buckets are heated so water isn't a problem. From the exrays my farrier said that it showed that he had foundered in the past before I purchased him as a 3 year old. Good luck and let us know how everything works out for you, this winter has got to end sometime!

 

[chandab]

Good link, Chanda...but now I need a hay probe. lol I wonder if my farrier has one I can borrow. I was looking for Resistance powder--haven't found it yet. Found other stuff that might benefit. I will run supplement ideas by my farrier and vet first. Mazie was very content to be stalled yesterday. I am in the barn by 5:10 to get chores and soaking done before school. Hope she starts showing improvement soon. Thanks!

Its probably Remission you are looking for, its a powder supplement with Magnesium and Chromium that is supposed to help founder-prone horses. I have a couple on it, and can tell you its an acquired taste for them, but almost my whole gang will eat it now (although, only a couple mares are on it at this time).

The County Agent or even a grain elevator might have a hay probe you can borrow.

 

[barnbum]

Oh--Remission! Got it. lol Got her soaked today--even at 5* and 30 mph winds out there. I have a call into the vet with the whole story; someone will call back tomorrow with ideas on causes and supplement options. Chanda--thanks for the idea that I may be able to borrow a hay probe...I'll look into that. I'm curious as to what our hay tests at now. I'm feeding lots of hay with this weather. Mazie is only getting her Probios treats with her hay.

 

[Casey0Lee]

I have quite a bit of experience with founder/laminitis. I currently have a mare (Mini) who came to me previously foundered and in the middle of a laminitic flare up.

Hands down.... a product called Simmerdown. Results I have seen, have been amazing. It is not safe for pregnant mares tho as there is one product in it that has been saod to cause mares to abort, but I can't remember what it is. As soon as my mare has her foal, she is going on the SD pellets. As of now, she is on Remission and TC Lite. I have been trimming her myself. With proper hoof care and diet, she has been 100% sound and her hoof health continues to improve.

It (SD) is for starch sensitive horses who are prone to laminitis and/or have laminitis. It's a canadian based company so you have to order it. One bucket cost me about $75 with shipping, but it lasted me MONTHS on a big horse. It would probably last you close to a year feeding one Mini. The resulta I have seen when used on starch sensitive horses has been aaaaamazing!!

Soak your hay for a min or 30 min before feeding. The longer, the better. It will release most of whats left (sugar) in there.

I would give her a vit/min supplement so that she is getting the required nutirition. If you have to, mix the supp with a hand full of a LOW NSC feed (under 10% NSC).

If you could, post photos of feet. You may have the best farrier in the world, or you may THINK you have the best farrier in the world. I used to think I knew what a good trim looked like. Boy, was I wrong. I'm glad I took the initiative to learn hoof function and equine nutrition bc it has helped me TREMENDOUSLY as a horse owner.

ANYTHING can cause a laminitic flare up.... weather changes, sugar contect fluctuations in hay or grass, stress, sickness, hormones, etc. You name it, it can cause it. You just have to maintaing the horse as best you can with diet and hoof care.

You can also duct tape/vetwrap foam pads to the bottom of her feet if you are worried about the hard surface.

 

[Many minis]

So sorry for the wrong product. It IS remission. I had great luck with it. Cost was reasonable. I should have gotten up from the laptop to double check.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

The Triple Crown 30% Supplement should be fine after the initial flare-up is over. It's NSC is 9.8% so it's a low starch feed.

I'm sorry you're having trouble again. I did have one of mine tested last summer for IR/EMS, it was worth the testing to know for sure and helped with management. Carrots are high in sugar, they are not recommended for IR horses, so maybe part of the problem if she is sensitive to sugars?

 

[barnbum]

I just cannot feed her only what she can eat in 20 min twice a day. That's be about 1 lb of hay a day. I'm still looking into testing hay. I don't have enough time in my day! It's the only thing left she eats. I did buy Remission--but of course she won't eat it and I sprinkle about 10 hay pellets with it. She hasn't had carrots for 12 days and only got them a few times a week.

She's still warm. She's still not sound. I've stalled her every day I'm at work. Hate this. I've soaked her in cold water twice a day for 20 min for 12 days now. She's moving faster and wants to move, but she's far from over this.

So incredibly frustrating.

 

[chandab]

Karla, they are a bit high in iron, but get the plain timothy pellets from Standlee, and give her some of those. The last time I checked with Standlee (been a few years), they were at or under 10% sugar and starch. When Misty had her big laminitic attack several years ago, I didn't have much straight grass hay left (vet ordered her on straight grass, didn't say anything about low s/s, but I went with his orders), so I ordered a pallet of the timothy pellets (I can't get them locally, so shipped in a pallet) and she ate those almost exclusively for 3-4 months (she got just a token amount of baled hay for munch time); she did quite well on them (although wasn't thrilled with her boring diet). [The orchardgrass pellets are higher, but I ordered a pallet of those later and she did fine with them.] The numbers Standlee gave me were just averages, so some batches might be higher, some might be lower. I know you can get the alfalfa/timothy pellets (alfalfa is probably not her friend right now), so see if they have the straight timothy and give them a try. I know you said you didn't want to go there, but the Cushing's group advocates using rinsed, soaked and rinsed again beet pulp (it can be upto 30% of her diet - however if going over 1# you need to balance the Calcium with some phosphorus).

 

[lucky seven]

Have you asked your vet to do ex-rays yet? I did and the damage is there to see and then you won't be second guessing what you should feed or not feed your mare. My boy tested negative for IR which is a blessing but the ex-rays showed the damage to his right side was there before I purchased him. As for him becoming my driving pony, that will never happen. He will be companion sound from now on.