World Champion/National Champion

[SampleMM]

What would you expect to pay, if you were buying a colt or stallion that you and the breeder thought was capable of winning a big title? I know this is very subjective but I thought it might be fun to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions.

 

[Leeana]

Its one of those things that will vary greatly. If you are buying a horse as a prospect with no or very little show record that is still very competitive locally but just has not been to Nationals or if you are purchasing a horse that has a National title already.

It would depend on what the horse has a Natl title as....to me Halter or Driving would be the biggys. A Natl Champion title in color or liberty or something of that sort is not to me a big deal (well its a National Champion in its class...but not something that would really up the price much in my eyes).

When i say "Champion"...i mean a horse that placed first, not top 10

.

 

[kayla221444]

I wont say names but I know someone who has a colt they think will win it all and are asking $40,000 for him.

 

[HGFarm]

Oooooo boy, that is a loaded question. LOL I would say it depends on the breeder, the market and what they are willing to let the horse go for. Remember, there are NO guarantees that it will win such a title... only the hopes that it might.

Of course for a higher quality colt, you would probably pay more than for your average colt........ but I have seen some horses 'fall apart' with age, or coarsen, or........ There are just so many things that fit into this, that I dont think it's easily answered!

An example: My friends sold a young Mini quite a few years back for $500.00. This horse was taken to an open show that a lot of folks here use for training before going to the big pointed shows, so there were at least a dozen Minis in the class. This horse beat out a horse that had just been purchased for $20K and we laughed til we cried, just to think of such a thing happening and wondering how the people who just forked out the $20,000 would feel if they knew.

Price does not always mean you have the best horse, nor does it guarantee a place in the spotlight in the show ring. It is always subject to the judges opinions, and if their taste is completely different than what you have on the end of your leadline...........well, there you have it.

Bottom line is, I have no clue, LOL

 

[txminipinto]

Laurie,

EXACTLY! I always choke when I see the hugely ridiculous prices on minis and ponies. And I laugh when I see them get the gate at the National level. Big bucks and promises do not guarantee a win in anything! I have won national titles with horses I paid very little for and have been very disappointed in horses that I have paid a lot for. Its a huge risk when you buy any horse and the price doesn't alter that risk. There's always something better out there and they probably paid less for it!

 

[~Lisa~]

40,000 is well

.

I can tell you I personally know of 2 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION stallions both with get on the ground (and doing well in the show ring) for less then 15,000.00

I own a 4 time National Champion driving mare- she also has several top 5,s and top tens. I have been told by many including trainers they have no doubt she can do it again (without me driving her lol) and I did not pay anywhere near 40,000 LOL

All of that said any horse is worth what someone is willing to pay

Price is subjective I have seen horses and ponies priced at 2500 and felt that was as silly as asking 30,000 for itI may feel it is worth 1000 bucks.. I have seen people asking 750 for a horse I felt was worth 2500 bucks. I have seen horses priced at 5000 and felt they were a great bargin.. so many variables and of course it all boils down to how badly do you want the horse

 

[Kawgirl]

An example: My friends sold a young Mini quite a few years back for $500.00. This horse was taken to an open show that a lot of folks here use for training before going to the big pointed shows, so there were at least a dozen Minis in the class. This horse beat out a horse that had just been purchased for $20K and we laughed til we cried, just to think of such a thing happening and wondering how the people who just forked out the $20,000 would feel if they knew

HA HA! I know what you mean! I took my then 18 year old gelding that is blind in one eye and is only WC registered to a show like this several years ago. We took first in two obstacle driving classes and second in pleasure driving. One of the horses we were competing against was the current AMHR national champion obst. driving horse. Sure felt good to get those ribbons!

He is the horse in my avatar, and I only paid $300 for him.

 

[Littleum]

40,000 is well

.I can tell you I personally know of 2 NATIONAL GRAND CHAMPION stallions both with get on the ground (and doing well in the show ring) for less then 15,000.00

I can tell you about one that was picked up at an auction for $1,500, and another that was found as an unregistered pet in someone's backyard. There are tons of stories about people/trainers who spotted "a special one" in the most unlikely place.

It depends on where you're buying it from, really, and how good your eye is. If you go to an established breeder you're going to pay for that track record & brand name. If you're willing to turn over rocks and take a chance, you'll probably find a better deal, but that takes time and you could look forever and not find that diamond in the rough.

 

[midnight star stables]

An example: My friends sold a young Mini quite a few years back for $500.00. This horse was taken to an open show that a lot of folks here use for training before going to the big pointed shows, so there were at least a dozen Minis in the class. This horse beat out a horse that had just been purchased for $20K and we laughed til we cried, just to think of such a thing happening and wondering how the people who just forked out the $20,000 would feel if they knew

HA HA! I know what you mean! I took my then 18 year old gelding that is blind in one eye and is only WC registered to a show like this several years ago. We took first in two obstacle driving classes and second in pleasure driving. One of the horses we were competing against was the current AMHR national champion obst. driving horse. Sure felt good to get those ribbons!

He is the horse in my avatar, and I only paid $300 for him.

But also remember that horses and people can have bad days!

I've seen stunning horses look goofy - doing a pattern wrong, being soar, bad clip job, being tired, bugs/flies, heat, rain, new tack/bits etc, etc, etc... Different judges and handlers also impact this. I have seen mediocre(sp) horses look fabulous on good days And I've seen judges clearly like a "type" (in either halter, driving, hunter, ect.) which greatly affect the placings. Is this wrong? I donno, but it IS a fact

I know I have a mare who does halter and showmanship and has big title in both...... At some shows she looks awesome and places great. At some shows she looks awesome and places very low. At some shows she looks awful and places great. At some shows she looks awful and places very low. I'm sure there are some people say similar things about her. IMO, she is a mare and acts accordingly.

This same mare is a WCP driving horse. At a show this year in CP driving, she won a class and place over a MULTI- National placing CP horse. That was THAT judge's opinion on that class. I'm terribly flattered, but I do disagree as *I* think the other horse is a better CP horse then mine in comparison to *my* ideal CP horse. IMO, neither is wrong, but it is just an opinion. I've seen so many horses place all over the board - it happens. SO many things can effect a performance.

Off my soap box.

 

[Kawgirl]

True, any horse can have a bad day. And judges opinions can vary. I know a lot of people would consider my boy worthless because he only has WC papers, although he was AMHR originally. The usaul papers didn't go with the horse story.

Anyway, I'm just saying that many high priced horses are overated and there are lots of cheap horses out there that for various reasons may not have the chances of being shown to big titles, even though they are just as good or perhaps better than those that did.

 

[MinisOutWest]

$20-50k easily. and you will never be guaranteed that win, different day, different arena, different set of judges. it all has to fall into place. a lot is just luck .....................

 

[Minimor]

I know of a horse that sold for over $75000.00 and never won a World title (though was shown at Worlds)--I always thought that must be SO disappointing for the buyer. I know of $1000 horses that have won National Championships.

If I were looking to buy, price wouldn't be the deciding factor to me. Just because a horse is high priced doesn't mean it's better than a low priced one--very much depends on the specific horse, who is selling it. I'd rather buy a bargain that I believe in than a high priced horse that someone else believes in.

 

[Littleum]

I know of a horse that sold for over $75000.00 and never won a World title (though was shown at Worlds)--

If I had that budget, I'd go buy the made horse.

Unless we're talking about an obviously rare and special item (Miss Kentucky) $75K will buy you just about whatever you want. There's no reason to spend it on a youngster when you can go buy the EXACT same quality in a mature, finished, been-there-done-that-got-the-sash-to-prove-it version. No worrying it will put out an eye or poof, there goes that show career. Well, sure, you can worry it will put out an eye, but at least the show career is done.

 

[JWC sr.]

Having just gotten back from Nationals, We saw numerous horses bought and sold at the show. Some folks made really good purchases and in our opinion, some did not. One mare was sold for 6,500.00 and I wish I could have bought her. Another mare sold for 20,000.00 and I did not want her in our herd. Both had titles after their names. Good horses are sometimes expensive, but sometimes you can find real deals which I dearly love. Spending a reasonable amount does many times though increase your chances of finding and buying a great horse unless you get really lucky. Most people are VERY aware of the quality they may have in their herds.

We showed two horses at Nationals. One was national champion and one was reserve national champion out of huge classes. Personally we turned down an exorbitant amount (about 15 times what I paid for him) for a colt we own, that is now a 2008 and a 2009 national champion. I am probably crazy for doing so, as we bought him for much less to use as a future herd sire. Plus Cindy loves him and his personality, so it was no sale. Unless someone gets really crazy he simply is not for sale.

So to answer the question it all depends on the goals you have for any certain horse, but yes if the horse meets what I am after, it does make them worth more when they have a title following their name. It does make them better known and worth more than a horse with no proven record in the ring where the rubber meets the road so to speak. But then again as some of the other posters have said no matter the size of the show, the champion is only that certain set of judges opinions on that certain day.

To further enhance any certain horses dollar value after it has a title, then it has to proves itself in the breeding pen. A really special horse is one that can and does pass on the traits that made it a winner in the first place, it will then demand even higher prices in most cases from from our experience. These are indeed the truly special horses in the industry.

 

[Jill]

Yes, you pay more for quality. If YOU and the breeder both see this potential, then I would say it makes sense to pay more for this individual than for one you don't see that potential in (I know, I am stating the obvious).

However, for others reading, I would caution against putting too much stock into what the breeder sees. Some breeders do have a good eye and are very honest (like one of my favorite breeders, our own Ms. Erica!), but others maybe do not have that same eye, or are not as honest. You've got two parts of the equation. Really knowing how to look at the horse and being honest enough to represent it fairly. If one of those components is off, you may be disappointed when the true potential of the horse is put to the test. I have seen many people represent a horse as top show quality when it is completely not that kind of horse and often times, the owner is not being dishonest. They just don't know how to really look at a horse.

 

[wcr]

There are so many variables to this question it would boggle the mind to think about it. The only guarantee would be to buy the horse that already has the title. If you had unlimited financial resources then it would be a drop in the bucket to pay big bucks and speculate on an unproven horse. I don't know many people that are in that situation.

Right now the market is flooded with top(and bottom)horses that if you had a good eye, you could pick up at bargain prices. Let's not forget that Daring Difference, who had I think, 4 National driving titles and 3 grand national titles sold for $8000, which I think was a crime. So many people are dispersing, myself included, and are selling horses way below their value.

So what happens when you find that gem, have paid the money, and have the lead rope in your hand. Do you throw them in your pasture and take them out in time for the world show and think you are going to win a title with them? Or are you going to do the work yourself or put them with the trainer to fit, train and totally condition the horse and have them peak at the right time to be their best at the world show. That is a very tall order that most people have no concept of. I have a real problem going to a show and the judges place horses by who is holding the lead. On the flip side of that, there are many trainers out there the really know what they are doing and have the horse in peak condition and know how to show that horse at it's best. Add on top of that, it is one judges opinion on one given day. Yikes!!!

You also need a good reality check to look at yourself to see if you are the one to take the horse to it's true potential. I have been with horses for 50 years now and I paid the big bucks to trainers and realized I got more out of my horses than the world winning trainer I was paying the big bucks to. I have had more success training and showing my horses than I ever did with a trainer.

Val, in my avatar, was a 5 yo totally wild stallion who I had seen as a yearling and wanted but the price was too high. When I bought him they squeeze chuted him to get a halter on and he didn't know how to lead. They got him out the gate and handed me the lead rope and it was 1/4 mile to my trailer, past mares with acres of walnut grove that we would never have caught him if he got loose. It took all my previous horse knowledge to get him to my trailer but he learned a great deal of respect for me that day. He was a huge challenge to train and he tested me every inch of the way. For many years I was the only one he would allow to handle him. He went on to win a World/Reserve title with me.

As I said, there are many variables to the question you asked.