worming

[lucky lodge]

ok i have 2 foals

1st foal is 8wks old

2nd foal is 4 wks old

i wormed both mums when foals where born

1st foals mum is due to be wormed

when do i worm both foals and how much do i give them and whats the safest wormer

thank you jenny

 

[wcr]

I would go ahead and worm them. Being in Australia I don't know your brand names there but I would worm with any number of products but never use Ivermectin as the first wormer for foals. Your foals will probably have worms and Ivermectin kills everything and dumping a bunch of dead worms in a foal can impact them and make them colic. I always use a milder wormer for the first time and then use Ivermectin.

 

[Sandee]

Foals tend to have more of a worm load than an adult horse simply because they don't have any resistance and they sometimes eat the others "waste". I, personally, would worm foals every month with something easy on them with Fenbendazole (Panacure or Safegard). An overload of worms can make a foal colic. We nearly lost my favorite (now mare) at 6 months old from this.

 

[Matt73]

If mom has been dewormed regularly throughout pregnancy and within 12 hours of foaling, I start deworming foals at 2 months of age with fenbendazole. Then I worm every month thereafter with Ivermectin (and Ivermectin/Praziquantel in Spring and Fall) until 1 year old. Then they are on a regular 8 week worming schedule, like the adults.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I would start worming them at 2 months old. SafeGuard would be a good first wormer to use. Then I just deworm them every other month.

 

[Lewella]

If mom has been dewormed regularly throughout pregnancy and within 12 hours of foaling, I start deworming foals at 2 months of age with fenbendazole. Then I worm every month thereafter with Ivermectin (and Ivermectin/Praziquantel in Spring and Fall) until 1 year old. Then they are on a regular 8 week worming schedule, like the adults.

I'm starting to feel like a broken record on ivermectin but using it exclusively is not doing your horses any good. There is documented resistance to both large roundworms and small strongyls - the two worms that foals tend to get the heaviest loads of. Ivermectin Resistance in Foals by: Susan Piscopo, DVM, PhD (Several other articles are linked in another recent thread on deworming)

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

I'm starting to feel like a broken record on ivermectin but using it exclusively is not doing your horses any good. There is documented resistance to both large roundworms and small strongyls - the two worms that foals tend to get the heaviest loads of. Ivermectin Resistance in Foals by: Susan Piscopo, DVM, PhD (Several other articles are linked in another recent thread on deworming)

You have the right point, Ivermectin should not be used over and over, year after year.

But, your logic is a little wrong. ALL classes of dewormers have resistance issues. Ivermectin isn't alone in that respect, its just the last one. We need to rotate wormers slowly and use good husbandry to keep parasite numbers at correct levels. Too many people pay too little attention to husbandry and rely solely on dewormers, then many either never rotate or rotate too quickly or administer the medicine at incorrect intervals/amounts.

The frustrating thing is that what works on one farm doesn't necessarily work on another, nor does it work on the original farm for forever. In the end, good parasite control is a constantly changing practice.

Dr Taylor

 

[Matt73]

I'm starting to feel like a broken record on ivermectin but using it exclusively is not doing your horses any good. There is documented resistance to both large roundworms and small strongyls - the two worms that foals tend to get the heaviest loads of. Ivermectin Resistance in Foals by: Susan Piscopo, DVM, PhD (Several other articles are linked in another recent thread on deworming)

Yeah, I don't use it exclusively (I rotate with praziquantel and fenbendazole)...didn't you see that? My horses are all completely worm free and very healthy...so I must be doing something right

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You have the right point, Ivermectin should not be used over and over, year after year.

But, your logic is a little wrong. ALL classes of dewormers have resistance issues. Ivermectin isn't alone in that respect, its just the last one. We need to rotate wormers slowly and use good husbandry to keep parasite numbers at correct levels. Too many people pay too little attention to husbandry and rely solely on dewormers, then many either never rotate or rotate too quickly or administer the medicine at incorrect intervals/amounts.

The frustrating thing is that what works on one farm doesn't necessarily work on another, nor does it work on the original farm for forever. In the end, good parasite control is a constantly changing practice.

Dr Taylor

Exactly right. If people do some fecal management in their pastures and especially in small paddocks you can do less deworming. If you have just a few horses on 50 acres more then likely all you really need to worm them with is 1 or 2 times a year. But if you have horses in small paddocks that can't get away from feces and can possibly ingest this then they should be dewormed at every 2 months. Foals should be dewormed often.

Thats why more people are doing fecal tests and deworm them if any is presented. IMO fecal checks should be a yearly routine along with vaccinations and dental and if necessary a coggins.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Praziquantel is a fairly specific tapeworm remover- it is not a broad spectrum wormer.

There is far more resistance to Fenbendazole than there is to Ivermectin.

I'd also like to add that the tests were done with first worming of foals and that the parasite in question was p. equorum a roundworm (to you and me, it's those nasty big white things that you will sometimes find in the droppings after worming)

Since most people recommend the initial worming is done with Fenbendazole, which is very efficacious against p.equorum, I can't see that this is going to be an ongoing problem, nor do I see it as a reason to panic about using Ivermectin as a base wormer for a worming programme, I still have not read through the other two pieces of info that you put up, Lewella, so I shall reserve judgement until I have done so, but suffice it to say that I shall not be changing my worming programme yet. I am very happy with the results I get from Ivermectin, I am not at all happy with the results I have got in the past from other chemicals- to the point that I would not use them again.

So, if we do have a problem with Ivermectin I am presuming that the the vets will be on top of this soon, and will have a chemical on the market that can take Ivermectin's place, as it, in turn, took over from Fenbendazole.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Yeah, I don't use it exclusively (I rotate with praziquantel and fenbendazole)...didn't you see that? My horses are all completely worm free and very healthy...so I must be doing something right

Horses should not be worm free, many owners feel they should be, but it simply isn't correct. 250 eggs/gram is well regarded as the correct worm load to produce a level of immunity without producing disease.

I'm thrilled you have no parasite problems.

Dr Taylor

 

[Matt73]

I've heard that that is the current thinking by vets etc. and that's great. But I only have three horses (four including my weaning bud for the winter) that are meticulously looked after (paddock is picked out every day, stalls are mucked every morning and picked out at night etc. etc.). So, am I supposed to do a fine balancing act so that I have the correct ratio of parasites? Seems a bit difficult to me; I'd rather just have parasite-free horses...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Not just current thinking- as far as I am aware it has always been so. This is why, if I hear someone has got back a faecal count of nil, I always suggest they get it done again, and why I stopped using my Vet (sorry Dr T but some Vets do patronise their clients) to do faecal counts and got a test I could do myself.

I was always given to understand that worms are part of the (very inefficient) digestive system of the horse and it is only when the worms get "out of balance" that we have a problem.

Or tape worms- I do not believe it is advantageous to any horse to have a tape worm!!

 

[lucky lodge]

ok some really good advice but still dont no how much to give them............

i know it goes on there weight but iam scared i might over do it

and how much does a foal weight i dont know how do i weight them??????????????

 

[vickie gee]

ok some really good advice but still dont no how much to give them............

i know it goes on there weight but iam scared i might over do it

and how much does a foal weight i dont know how do i weight them??????????????

There is a horse tape measure you can buy from the mini horse supply sites. You take the height and the measurement around them (behind the shoulders) and the tape converts the two to approximate weight. I have always heard you can go over a bit because overestimation is better than underestimation. I may not be correct, but that is how I do it. By the way, last year my colt passed large white worms after a worming at 9 months. It freaked me out! They looked like albino Georgia wigglers...gross. I looked it up in one of my horse care books and it said those kind reach their peak at 9 months and that it is not uncommon to see them pass.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Especially with SafeGuard its hard to over dose. Thats why I actually prefer just to worm them with SafeGuard til at least weaning time. Ivermectin you don't really want to over dose on, but especially to those who are overloaded with worms cause it can do more harm then good. But I gave a broodmare accidently one tube of Ivermectin because the plunger came undone and she came out perfectly fine. I just give one notch to the foals.

 

[Lewella]

You have the right point, Ivermectin should not be used over and over, year after year.

But, your logic is a little wrong. ALL classes of dewormers have resistance issues. Ivermectin isn't alone in that respect, its just the last one. We need to rotate wormers slowly and use good husbandry to keep parasite numbers at correct levels. Too many people pay too little attention to husbandry and rely solely on dewormers, then many either never rotate or rotate too quickly or administer the medicine at incorrect intervals/amounts.

The frustrating thing is that what works on one farm doesn't necessarily work on another, nor does it work on the original farm for forever. In the end, good parasite control is a constantly changing practice.

Dr Taylor

You missed the word "exclusively" LOL We agree completely on this. Over the last few weeks I've seen mulitple posts where people are using ivermectin or ivermectin/praziquantel combo dewormers exclusively without rotating with the other classes of dewormers.

I've dealt with ivermectin resistant large roundworms for years - not fun - but unfortunately common here in Minnesota. My vet and I follow the AAEP's recommendations put out in 2009 with some minor tweaking (example - I want my 40 acres of pasture to be healthy with lots of bugs to break down the manure so I don't use ivermectin products during pasture growing season - only before they are put out to pasture in the spring and after being taken off pasture in the fall - this is something our extension service recommends).

Rabbitsfizz - the problem is there are NO new dewormers on the horizon - something the AAEP has been emphasising for several years. No new dewormer is going to magically appear to cover the problems created by the using ivermectin exclusively.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

ok some really good advice but still dont no how much to give them............

i know it goes on there weight but iam scared i might over do it

and how much does a foal weight i dont know how do i weight them??????????????

Weight tapes work for a reasonable guess. Your local small animal Vet may allow you to weigh your mini on their dog/cat scale (its what I use when I have a patient in the clinic).

Most wormers are quite safe (I don't care for Quest-moxidectin) and it is actually better to use too much rather than too little.

Dr Taylor

 

[Jill]

Our foundation dewormer is Ivermectin (specifically the "Bimectin" brand which is an apple flavored gel @ less than $3/tube from Jeffers Equine that treats 1250 pounds of horse -- the horses all LOVE the taste) and 2x a year, we also use Panacur or Safeguard.

Mares are dewormed right after foaling with Irvermectin. We first deworm foals around 3mos with Panacur / Safeguard and then they're on the same schedule as our other horses.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

My schedule is similar to Jill's- I use Ivermectin as a base wormer and shall continue to do so, as I already use Fenbendazole, (as well as, not instead of) twice a year in a five day course, and also do the same with Praziquantel, I do not think there is anything more efficient than Fenbendazole, five day, for encysteds, and that would get any resistant round worms as well, I always sue Fenbendazole as a first wormer.

My faecal tests tell me that my horses are healthy- I sweep pastures twice a year and pick up droppings all summer.

If there is no wonder drug on the horizon I think I will stick with what I know as, at the moment, I do not have any problems.

The real problem I can see is "random rotating" which merely, as far as I can see, ends up with horses being underwormed- which as we know is how resistance builds up in the first place.