Would like to make a point here...

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well to me and this is just me.. a cartoon drawing (although a nice one) showing simply a horse with correct conformation doesnt exactly equal a standard of perfection but that is just me

 

[Minimor]

If we're discussion standards of perfection, I have to point out that no matter how detailed you make a standard of perfection, you will still get 10 different "looks" from 10 different breeders, each and every one of which will insist that their horses match the standard EXACTLY.

Look at the Morgans. Morgans are supposed to look like Justin Morgan. There is a wood cutting of Justin Morgan that is supposed to be the closest replica of him. There are paintings of what is considered to be the ideal Morgan mare, gelding and stallion. (Beautifully drawn horses, not "cartoon" drawings!) The standard of perfection is quite specific as to conformation traits (length of hip, appearance of head, etc). Yet people will put forth all sorts of horses as outstanding examples of Morgan type. There are several Morgan "families" each with its own distinctive type and appearance. There are individuals who look very much like Saddlebreds. There are individuals that are rather Arab-y, and some that are very much "western" in type. They all look very different, yet they are all Morgans and for all of these different looks and types there is someone that will insist that is the "ideal" Morgan according to the standard of perfection.

At this point in time the standard of perfection for Miniatures can be describing a nice Arab type (if such really exists, I think those described as Arab type are more Welsh type in many cases) or QH type or Saddlebred type or Morgan type...and if you make the standard even more detailed to try and described EXACTLY a certain specific type--you are still going to have people trotting out their Arab or Welsh or Saddlebred or Morgan or QH type horses and insisting that they match the standard.

 

[Katiean]

That arab foal was not a new born. I would expect my minis by that age to not have a domed head either. See my avatar. I think my foal has a nicely dished head. But, it was domed at birth. So were all of the arab foals I delivered.

That foal (filly) in that pic was five days old so I consider that newborn.

This picture she was 1 1/2 days old

In that pic you can see the slight bulge in the forhead. It doesn't have to be a big one. But, they all have it

 

[gatorbait4sure]

OK, Back from chores....

The standard is, in my humble opinion, open for discussion as it still does not give someone new to the breed and REAL "Picture " of what we are trying to accomplish. I am also not saying a "Cartoon" drawing will help but, a nice series of drawings ( so we don't use someone's actual horse ) with areas to breed for AND faults we'd like to get rid of....like conformation problems.

Also include drawings of long backs ( assuming we'd like short ones ) What the National BREED Club wants for heads, the necks we are trying to produce and the ones we are not trying to produce.......etc.

EXAMPLES and written descriptions....

And why are we not a breed yet? This is a question, not an accusation.

Flamo

 

[Minimor]

gatorbait, seriously, you can have all the drawings and pictures and diagrams you want, and people still see what they want to see! show someone a photo of a nice long hip and that someone may very well point to a horse with a short, tipped-up-toward-the-dock croup & say "yep, that one over there has the perfect croup". I've seen it over & over again--people read a description or look at a drawing or photo & they see or read into it just what they want to see.

 

[disneyhorse]

Does anyone think the AMHR and AMHA websites should feature pictures of all the past National Grand Champion geldings, mares, and stallions? Have a page where one could go and check out what the judges are picking as the CLOSEST LIVING IDEAL STANDARD at the National level? Because there is no set detailed standard... what is showing and winning at the National level is what a breeder should theoretically strive for.

There is always a market for quality, winning horses. Those who grumble about falling prices, inability to sell foals, and "my horses are correct and the type I like even though I don't like the fad xyz type" possibly are not striving to follow what is winning. I hate to say it, but the dollar generally follows what's at Nationals. At least that's sort of the way I see it?

We always admire breeders like Getitia, Erica, the Taylors, Little Kings... breeders who generally don't have much problems selling their horses for more than an auction price and breeders who don't generally have problems breeding National quality horses. But those breeders are at Nationals, year after year, putting their homebred horses up against others from all over the country/world. They are adapting and tweaking their programs for the better, making whatever needed changes to make the most desirable, healthy, beautiful animal they can.

The breed standard is general, not specific, and changing all the time to taste, fad, and some breeders' dedicated move to produce the best horses they can. The quality of the miniature horse is improving year by year. I have seen a huge change in the past decade, and there are some truly beautiful animals out there.

That said, I do thank those dedicated breeders who are able to consistently produce those National winners... it shows!

Andrea

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have to say that EVERY single foal I have ever foaled out of whatever breed has ALWAYS had a bulgy forehead to some degree- I have even seen newborn SHIRES with it- I think we can safely dismiss this as a "breed" characteristic, and, since we all know what Shires and Clydes end up looking like, we can say that the bulge has nothing to do with the end product!!

Also ALL foals have the bulge, most foals have a dish of some kind- it does not stay.

For me, if the muzzle will not fit in a teacup- and I have not seen a mini, my own included, (Except Shah Jahan & - oh flip what is his name- the horse in the picture - Amerigo??) ) whose muzzle would, then the dish means little.

You have to start off with the basics, or you cannot get the end result.

I have seen some nice heads on here- I have seen some I consider Dwarfed or with Dwarf traits, and Yes, I am afraid, Stephanie, I really do include your Appy mare in this.

She does not have an Arab head and she does not have a Welsh Type head either- I really do think, and have always thought, she has a dwarfy head.

Sorry.

I would never mistake a Mini of any sort for any sort of Arab- and I know someone who has a 36" part bred Arab (registered) and I also bred one of my Arab mares to my Mini stallion- the result was a very nice Pony indeed- but not something that would shout Arab at you!!

I think what we have here is confusion- I have seen many Minis now with lovely heads and bodies to go with it- Sorry but I have to drag Prince into this as he has not been posted.

That is one of the nicest ADULT horse I have seen for a long time, and he also happens to be a Mini- now THAT is what I am breeding for- something that is very, very nice, FIRST and foremost, and just happens to be a Mini!!!

No dwarf characteristics and maybe not the smallest horse in the world (who cares??) but absolutely as near perfect as you can get.

 

[gatorbait4sure]

Mimimor,

What I am asking for is two things. I should have been more specific, sorry.

1. I want the AMHA and all it's members ( as well as the AMHR, and all IT'S members ) to organize and make this a breed WITH two sizes ( could be two different BREEDS with different sizes ).

2. Draw up a DETAILED Standard as to what THE BREED CLUB deems IT'S "Ideal Standard " of the BREED.

It will then be up to the INDIVIDUAL breeder to interperate what that is saying ( no two people see things alike ) but it will have that "Standard" as a guide.

As it is, we are not a BREED but a measurement, and we do not have a DETAILED Standard IMHO!

ALSO, I do NOT want what is winning, (judged by QH judges, Hackney judges, Arabian judges, etc. even though they have their Mini license), posted as what we should be breeding for, I want it done BUY the PARENT CLUB!!!! Why should we ask a QH person to tell us what we should be breeding??? No offense intended.....

Flamo the Magnificent

 

[Mona]

Except Shah Jahan

Shah Jehan definately did NOT have a tiny "teacup" muzzle, at least never in any of the photos I have seen of him. I owned a son of his, and even though he was very pretty headed, he also did not have a "teacup" muzzle.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

MiniHoofBeats, I hope you don't take any offense, but that little appaloosa mare's (the second photo) head is not shaped like an Arabian, and it gives me reason to wonder if she has an underbite...that type of head is a sign of dwarfism. The dish is part of a malformation, and combined with the large dome and high-placed nostrils is worrisome.

I know you don't think I'm right, but if you look at her head shape, it is "U" shaped (when viewed from the side and three-quarters view), and has a bend upward. It makes her look like she's sticking her chin out, and usually these types have underbites. If not, I am wrong, but overall, the head says dwarf, not dish as in the type that would be associated with an Arabian. Then again, I'm not a person to say that my horses look at all like Arabians, I just try to strive for horse-like proportion and pleasant features.

Liz

We all know pictures can be taken at wrong times...chewing, lipping, etc. Lee Minks was just here to do work on her teeth and said she has the best structured jaw he's seen in a while. Dead on alignment. She did have some teeth to float but I told him I doubt she had seen a dentist since before I got her so that was expected. No, she doesn't have an underbite.

Ok well I haven't even read the rest of the posts after this one on page 10 but I am going to come out and say I am deeply, deeply disappointed in a lot of you...no words can even come out of my mouth right now that would be nice. I have been overly excited about the foal I am expecting from my Dippers Duffy daughter and now after so many compliments on her and comments and yadda yadda, now people say she has dwarf characteristics? Breaks my heart...

What breaks my heart most is that EVERYONE missed the point of this thread and took it over as their own. I am tired of greedy, spotlight hungry members...sorry there it is, there's the truth. There are those among us who specifically specialize on certain traits, and we need to understand that because miniatures are evolving, ever changing, it has to be accepted that just because certain features are bred for DOES NOT MEAN it is any longer a characteristic. Look at weiner dogs, (dachsunds) sure they can be called midget or dwarf but...the point is, their short legs are bred to be short...and they aren't criticized or chastised for that. Who's to say just because one person really wants to breed for small, tippy ears, that "oh that's a dwarf characteristic, you're breeding dwarfs. Even though the rest of the horse looks great those small ears make it a dwarf!" Insane how some things aren't accepted...

This is more for others defense than my own as my program is still ever changing but...take a look around...domed heads are being bred for! They're no longer being avoided, they're being bred for. Maybe you don't, and that's fine whatever TO EACH THEIR OWN. I see them every day, every where! I see more domed heads posted in this post (except the arabians) than ever before and that was sort of my point. Even those of you who posted and said "this one has dish, but no dome" you are SO WRONG! Take a second look at your horses forehead! If you can't lay a ruler across that without it tipping then that's NOT a flat forehead!

Frustrates me where this post has gone...and that so many of you are fighting in your own defense "I would never purchase a horse like that" well go look through your website once! Each and every one of you really...it is a shame...

i'm done posting on this thread (maybe)...had my feelings turned upside down and now a program I thought so highly of, that I worked so hard on, I see most of you just assume to be dwarfs so...thanks, I appreciate all the criticism against my horses when you should really be taking a harder look at your own. If I could, I would go through each of your websites and post pictures of your horses and ask you to look a second time.

Eesh...I feel like i'm still working with a bunch of children...and I really hate children! You all might feel the same with me but well...flame on! I doubt i'll be back to read it. God this place frustrates me more and more as time goes on, and each time I try to give this place another try, to forgive those who have put me down before well it is one gigantic circle isn't it.

Bjpurpur - I do want to thank you, you've been very sincere one on this thread with your reply!

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

MiniHoofBeats,,,,

I am sorry you feel that way. I don't think anyone is attacking you. Most of us are changing our breeding programs all the time. That is the only way to learn and grow. I have a mare right now that has a couple dwarfism qualities. I am deciding right now what will be her path in life. The gene is there in miniature horses. Yes it had sometime in the past been bred intentionally for small size, cuteness. But in breeding, there is NOTHING as heartbreaking as getting a foal that will be born to pain and suffering and we have to watch that suffering. I want to try and avoid that. I know you do too. That is why I really liked this thread you started so we can learn.

 

[Dona]

Steph.....I'm really sorry you feel this way.

:

But, you HAD to know that when you posted a picture here for critique....you would get LOTS of opinions, and there will be some that you don't agree with. :no:

I don't think that anyone is truly trying to make you feel bad. They are giving their honest opinions.

You take those, for what they are worth to you, and either learn by them.....or not.

I think this has been a very educational thread....especially for newbies who didn't understand the whole "dish" concept. It has opened up a lot of discussion & I think has probably been an eye-opener for many to look for certain traits in their own herds

:

 

[nootka]

I don't even post all that often these days, and I HATE spotlights.

What I hate most of all, though, is unnecessary suffering. I would hate to hear or have your little mare die or lose her foal because it was badly deformed (and it may not be, there is a CHANCE that her foal will not inherit dwarfism, there are full-blown very badly deformed dwarfs who have normal offspring) and I know you would feel terrible, as well, as I know that you care for your horses.

Proportions are hugely important. Short leg length is a sign of dwarfism, and I KNOW that noone thinks that dwarf minis should be intentionally bred for, dachsunds are no example.

I am sorry your feelings are hurt. I honestly hope that the feelings of many would help you take another look at what you're seeing, for your own as well as your mare's sakes.

I never intended to hurt your feelings, it makes me feel badly, not good like you are implying.

You said the pictures may be off, but these are "pro" pictures and ones that you agree or have said make her look beautiful. Yes, she's "cute" but also is a minimally afflicted dwarf from the photos that I have seen. I don't know how she has a straight bite, with the profile she has, but I'm glad that she does. Her head is very oddly shaped, and I see many out there with odd shaped heads, but in combination with her short legs and very long back, it is something that should give any conscientious breeder pause before using her. We are ALL faced with these decisions, and it's not easy.

Good luck to you....

Liz

 

[nootka]

What breaks my heart most is that EVERYONE missed the point of this thread and took it over as their own. I am tired of greedy, spotlight hungry members...sorry there it is, there's the truth. There are those among us who specifically specialize on certain traits, and we need to understand that because miniatures are evolving, ever changing, it has to be accepted that just because certain features are bred for DOES NOT MEAN it is any longer a characteristic. Look at weiner dogs, (dachsunds) sure they can be called midget or dwarf but...the point is, their short legs are bred to be short...and they aren't criticized or chastised for that. Who's to say just because one person really wants to breed for small, tippy ears, that "oh that's a dwarf characteristic, you're breeding dwarfs. Even though the rest of the horse looks great those small ears make it a dwarf!" Insane how some things aren't accepted...

Are you saying that you are breeding for weiner-dog like horses? I am curious which trait it is that you are breeding for that it is ok to produce more dwarf horses? THAT is what I'm trying to say is likely with your mare's conformation.

She may be the color and the pattern you want, but do you want it on a badly-deformed dwarf? Domed heads are NOT being bred for. You missed the point.

Yes, some foals have domed heads, but they grow out of it for the most part. The forehead between the eyes does have a small mound, but it is not higher up like your mare's, the ones that are, are likely suffering from dental misalignments caused by badly formed jaws due to dwarfism. This has been my experience, observation from nearly 20 years of observation. I've only had minis for 12 and it is NOT a business for me, merely a hobby in which I hope to do the best possibly by my horses as well as anyone that does purchase one from me. I do ok in the show ring, and I have compliments from people I consider to be well-versed in horse conformation.

You will find hundreds of people to adore your little mare, and I know you already have. If you notice, there have been many that have been silent on your posts about her, as they are not really allowed to say how they feel, and noone wants to hurt your feelings. I am sorry if the photos make her look more like something she may not be, but I don't think that a horse has ever had such bad luck in photos. It is what it is, even Miss Kentucky has bad hair days, but I've never seen a photo of her that makes her look so off in her proportions.

Even those who breed for tiny have an obligation to seek out the best proportions and shapes. MORE so, because smaller often comes with it dwarfism.

Good luck,

Liz

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

Yah I guess I just can't stay away sometimes...

Liz, you do realize i'm not talking of my appy mare when i'm speaking of my dippers duffy mare who is in foal...different mare completely but I feel from your description you think my appy mare is in foal? I have been waiting on her deciding what I really want do to with her...much like Crabby Chicken said in her post with one of her mares.

Again I will say, to each their own! You say my appy mares head is "very oddly shaped" whereas I think heads like hers are very attractive! Of course, I will not seek out heads like hers with bodies of dwarfs but, when I see a head like hers it makes me melt...I truly love her features, everything about her. But you see...the type of head that YOU like, I might consider to be really ugly. It's all a matter of personal opinion. Lets just leave it at that.

"Are you saying that you are breeding for weiner-dog like horses? I am curious which trait it is that you are breeding for that it is ok to produce more dwarf horses? THAT is what I'm trying to say is likely with your mare's conformation."

NO I am not breeding for weiner dog horses! That is an outstanding accusition no matter how sarcastic. I am very well aware of dwarf characteristics, i'm very well aware of the outcome of a dwarf being born and NO that is not what I want. Very rude of you to put it that way. Liz...take a look at the adult mini's posted on here, they STILL HAVE DOMES! I am not talking overly accentuated ones just like how they are born, that is obviously too too toooooo domed but dear god...open your eyes and take a look! SOME people do like them...some people do prefer them! Just because YOU don't doesn't make it WRONG and doesn't make the entire horse a DWARF. If the horse entirely has characteristics then duh we're not stupid. I'm not stupid.

I strive...and strive...to make it a point to everyone, all the time, that I am not on this earth focusing on breeding dwarfs...I am not Mr. Bond, I am not the Komokos line...I have standards just as much as everyone else and, I have dreams just like everyone else! I don't understand why it is that just because myself and others (I am not alone on this) like certain looks, that I get put to blame and now my entire program is labelled? I don't know who set who out to ruin me and my hard efforts but it really is a shame!

 

[Shari]

Now I have to say I do not like the direction many Arab breeders are going. I used to breed them in the 80's. Will have to scan my favorite geldings picture but he is what I call classic.

Maar Khaliq was his sire and handled him for a few breedings...he was such a polite stallion. He is what I concide a classic Arab.

The next was a dark bay colt by *Ibn Moniet El Nefous named Maar Khaliq who eventually became the senior herd sire for Mubazir Arabians in Valley Center, California who bred many incredibly beautiful and athletic Straight Egyptian horses

This is a picture of Maar Khaliq.. not the best...

His sire

Maar Ree as an grand very elder lady

Needless to say... I would not want mini's to even try to go to the extreme's some other Arab lines are going.

And what Carol has said is very correct,,, to what the term "Dish" means.

Every mini I have seen in person with a bluge on the forehead has some level of Dwarfizum.

I prefer my mini's with those lovely little pony faces and fox ears. No extremes one way or another.

 

[mininik]

This isn't about one picture of your mares heads and differing opinions on if they're pretty or not. There are more pictures and even video on your website. I have looked at it all as well as the information on their lineage that is provided. In my opinion, neither of your mares has good, basic conformation. There are other obvious signs of dwarfism, even if they are not dwarves. I have nothing to gain by posting my honest opinion. You will remember that YOU started in this thread as it related to your mares and your vet's opinion on dwarfism.

 

[MiniHoofBeats]

This isn't about one picture of your mares heads and differing opinions on if they're pretty or not. There are more pictures and even video on your website. I have looked at it all as well as the information on their lineage that is provided. In my opinion, neither of your mares has good, basic conformation. There are other obvious signs of dwarfism. I have nothing to gain by posting my honest opinion. You will remember that YOU started in this thread as it related to your mares and your vets opinion on dwarfism.

No... I did NOT start this thread on MY mares. People took it in that direction, sadly. Shows me really how uppity you can be, to think your program is so perfect that you can cut others down. I am not one to stoop to that level to go through others websites and then publicly post my opinions. This all just makes me want to cry...how heartless and cruel you can be.

JUST STOP! EVERYONE JUST STOP CUTTING ME DOWN!!! MY FEELINGS ARE CRUSHED! MY DREAMS ARE CRUSHED!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I CAME BACK HERE THINKING FRIENDS COULD BE MADE AGAIN!

JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!

I'm out of here.

 

[nootka]

No, I meant the other mare, though I removed some of what I said. The other mare is awfully small, you know, and her proportions could cause issues. I have not really looked that closely at the stallion she's bred to, but I know you have. I hope the foal is just fine and has nice, long legs, short back, and the head you love, and all is perfect.

Head shape is NOTHING to get upset about. I have horses that I don't like their heads, but if all else is good, I am fine. I can find a stallion with a pretty head (like Crabby Chicken's stallion) and fix it up nice.

Hopefully.

My black mare has the nicest head in my herd, though it IS a bit longer than I might like and she has like NO chin, and yes, there is a small rise from where it begins next to her eyes to the center, but it is all in the right places, her nose is not turned up as a dwarf and she has no other odd characteristics.

Many people do prefer dwarfs, hence the big market for them. There is a link to someone on your page that intentionally breeds them that is from this state. She says she gets more for them than the average foal, and having been to her farm, I know that she does breed dwarfs as dozens of them there with foals at side (most of whom have dwarf foals nursing) would be the evidence. She goes for a certain color and eye color, though, so what you see is what you get.

Noone is trying to say they are better than you, what we are trying to do is help you see something that might be very bad for you and for your horses before it happens.

I am sorry I stated it rudely, but bringing up the dachsunds made me wonder since your bay appy mare does have a little of the build like that, I thought maybe you were happy with her proportions.

As I said, best wishes in your journey, it takes a lot of time to learn things and the lessons hurt. I personally, hope they don't.

Liz

 

[Katiean]

I too would like to see a standard. Even by size. In poodles they have a standard. Toy, Mini and Standard. Each has a size defining range. But, they have a standard of what a poodle looks like. I have read ads for mini horses that read Quater type, Arab type, Draft type, Looks like a Gypsy Vanner etc...The only thing all of these horses have in common is size. We do need a standard so we can all breed the same "Type" of horse. That way we can all compeat against each other with out a judges type preference coming into play. I do realize that usually there is more than one judge but I have see a fifth place horse take a first in the same class. Different breeds of cattle have a standard, Other breeds of horses have a standard, so do Dogs, cats, rabbits, goats and any other pure bred animal registration. I know in the rabbit "Standard of Perfection" book there are pictures of each breed (some even down to pattern). AKC has a Standards book with pictures of the different breeds of dogs. We too need a Standards book even if they seperate the different "Types" of minis. JMO