A lot of complaints over prices at auctions,

[Frankie]

What are you going to do about it????

What can we do about it?????

Are YOU willing to help improve the market and if so, how?

If we are going to do a lot of griping, complaining and whinning about those prices, we've got to be able to offer a solution as well.

When I coached tennis,,,,,my number one rule,,,,,,,,,,if you are going to come to me about a complaint,,,,,you had better have a reasonable, thought out solution to offer as well.

It seems that many "think" the solution lies with others,,,,,,,,,,,I say the solution lies with us all.

At auctions,,,,,,,,,,,have a NO Sale on horses instead of giving them away,

Breed less,

and my goal for the next year,,,,,,,,,market my horses the way they should be.

 

[Jill]

This will probably sound like putting the blame back on others, however, two things that I feel would reduce the number of these $50 minis being sold at auction is if people would:

1. Stop breeding pet quality minis

2. Stop breeding unregistered minis

 

[Pepipony]

To me the fix's' are education and quality not quantity. To stop breeding pet quality would force people either buy expensive minis or not have them. I have a pet quality mini and darn glad at that. Breed for quality not quantity. Dont breed 10 mares and 'hope' for that one spectacular foal and sell off the rest. I HATE it when BHbreeders do that, breed dozens of mares for that one shining foal. Education, people have to learn the difference between show,pet and dwarves. Too bad people are far more ignorant than animals. No let me rephrase, ignorance is from not learning, stupidity is from learning and not doing anything about it. So, guess its too bad people are far more stupid than animals ( meaning the people that breed just because they have a mare). I see it all the time around here, people think that just because they have a horse/dog/whatever, then they are experts.

 

[Jill]

In my opinion, plenty of pet quality minis will be made by breeding show quality minis to each other. I just do not feel a person should take what they know (or should know) is a pet quality animal and hope it will make something any better than itself. I feel, unless a person would be 100% happy with an exact duplicate of the "worst" of the pair, then the animals should not be bred. If a person cannot afford to buy breeding quality animals, then I feel they should not be breeding the animals.

It seems like with minis, almost EVERYONE who owns a mini does eventually breed minis. And, more often than not, it's SOON before they could really know "enough" (again, my opinion). I just don't understand it. I'm nervous myself about testing the waters and breeding my horses. I've had show horses for years and the past two years really really set out to pick horses that would be good matches for each other. I can't imagine what I'd have "brought forth" if I bred the minis I purchased my first couple years into it to each other but they would not be Champions, of that I'm sure.

 

[HGFarm]

These are great ideas, and I think that we all try to be responsible breeders. However, there are many that are not, and could care less whether the Mini is quality or not, if it is registered or not, and will still continue to run theirs through the auction. I dont know what we will ever do with those folks....

Many buyers dont realize that what they get through the auction is not a good representation of the breed and will wonder why someone will pay $3000.00 for a Mini when they just got theirs for $300.00! :new_shocked:

 

[Jill]

Many buyers dont realize that what they get through the auction is not a good representation of the breed and will wonder why someone will pay $3000.00 for a Mini when they just got theirs for $300.00! :new_shocked:

Oh, I hear you! My brother in law (H's brother) who is not one of my favorite people to begin with told me once how down the road from him, there were a bunch of minis for sale for $200 (or something like that). Even Harvey was disgusted and said something like "well, I doubt they look like ours."

But, you're right, to a lot of people a mini is a mini. Just like personally, I wouldn't enjoy a conformationally imperfect dog any less than a top show quality dog. But then my doggies are "just" pets (pretty important job!) and do not breed nor show.

Probably because of their size, people are more likely to over-produce miniatures vs. full size horses though it's a problem there, too. Still, I myself would be more worried about a few 13hh yearlings running around (and needing to be handled, trained, and me not hurt by them) vs. if it takes me a year to sell some mini foals and thry grow to 30" or so before they find their new people.

To be honest, I do admit that one reason I am only now just moving towards breeding my horses is how much I do worry about the mares and I would feel pretty guilt ridden if something goes wrong and I loose one of my mares. A lot of people do not seem to understand the risks (or are not as gifted in the worry department as I am). When the new people show up here and are breeders a month later, I always wonder if they had been here the prior foaling season, would they have been more cautious?

Really, though, I do not feel the problem of over population and $50 minis at auction changing any time soon if ever :no:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I have often said (and often been flamed for saying) that if each of us just here on this fourm which is really a small population of the mini world- decided to leave open just one mare a year we had planned on breeding .. well just that one mare with all of us on here who breed that would be at least (bare minimum) 500 less horses born that year.. that really does make a big difference and then imagine if it were 2 mares.. that is 1000 less horses that have the chance of going thru an auction no matter who we sell them to the reality is still there that yes one of our beloved horses that we feel are of quality can still just as easily end up there.

 

[rockin r]

Here we go...."I" for one do not have thousands of dollars to pay for a horse that I am not going to show. (I have no interest in showing). Why would I pay that kind of money for a horse that I am "just" going to love and give a "QUALITY HOME" to. Other than just to say "I paid $3000.00 or more for this horse, are'nt you impressed"!!! All my horses are registered. And I have bought very nice quailty from an auction. In the end it is not the BIG names that get me, (although some are quite beautiful) it is the horse it's self. And it is people like me who save these wonderful as they are called "PET QUALITY" horses from going to the buthcher.. I am very proud of my horses. I have heard this said here before...."If you can't afford to buy the best then don't breed"...If this were the case then 90 percent of the people who own miniatures, have "pet quality" horses....

 

[Frankie]

RR

There will always be pet quality,,,,,,,,,,even 2 very quality horses can not produce a top notch horse time and time again, one here and there will end up being a pet. So they will always be there.

I think mostly what is being said here is,,,,,,if you do have those pet quality,,,,or if you bought them,,,,and I know you are proud of them,,,,,,,,,,,do you breed the pet quality???????

Lisa,,,,,,,,it would be more than 500 less, gotta count the number THOSE 500 would have produced.

 

[Minimor]

Dont breed 10 mares and 'hope' for that one spectacular foal and sell off the rest.

That's a big pet peeve of mine, especially in the Mini breed, only I'd say it this way: don't breed 50 mares to get a few good ones, and then pretty much give away the others, either as a free bonus for buying a higher priced horse or at low prices just to get rid of them.

We are breeding for ourselves only; I don't like to part with the babies, & so I don't! No one can accuse us of flooding the market, or dumping horses at low prices. We have sold one--older horses, not the foals--here & there, all to carefully selected homes at prices that reflect their true worth. If they won't sell for that, then we don't sell them--they can stay here rather than be given away.

Many buyers dont realize that what they get through the auction is not a good representation of the breed and will wonder why someone will pay $3000.00 for a Mini when they just got theirs for $300.00!

What's more sad, though, the person who buys that $300 (or less) Mini at auction and is happy because they have a Mini to love.....or the person who buys that $300 Mini at auction, takes it home, spiffs it up a little bit, writes a fancy spiel about it, then resells that horse for $1000/$2000/$3000 to some unsuspecting buyer who then figures they really have something--they paid big bucks for it, so the horse has to be good enough to breed! Oh yeah, it does happen.
People that want to breed their Minis need to really sit back & look at their horses and learn to actually see & judge what they've got. From what I've seen, Mini people--not all of them, but a lot of them--are very bad for falling for sales pitches & believing in what they are told by sellers. Some get taken badly, and after they have the horse awhile they do start looking around & realize that they paid big money for a poor quality horse. Others, though, are so brainwashed by a convincing sales pitch that they just carry on, seeing the wonderful high quality horse the seller described to them--they're completely oblivious to the fact that they were badly taken. Then they wonder why people don't flock to their door to buy the offspring of these horses. This happens some in all breeds, but from what I see/hear it is especially prevalant in Minis--maybe because there are so many new-to-horses people coming into the breed, and maybe it's partly because it's easy to get misled by "small and cute".

Someone once commented to me that I put so much though into what I'm going to breed--then this person said "I just breed". I think that's a common problem, and plays a part in the flooded market.

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[nootka]

Much of how I feel was stated by Jill and Minimor, mountain waif also added a lot I agree with, esp. the gelding thing. I have been gelding my colts for a while, now, even though I only ever have a FEW, mine will be sold as geldings with FEW and RARE exceptions. Not that they are lesser quality or have bad pedigrees or issues, just that there are TOO MANY stallions to not geld them unless they have something really amazing and rare, and irreplaceable, and even then...snip snip is the mantra. Not 100% guarantee, but I get a lot of the ones that wanted that $500 stallion or the $1500 herd sire ooops he's only a gelding, what a shame. *shrug* not to me. For that money I could go buy a breeding to a nice stallion, and if you want a truly worthy stallion, he won't be cheap, IMO.

When I first began w/minis I was counseled by the person that sold them to me, to get a lot of mares and breed 'em all and sell 'em cheap and if I got a super great one, then bonus, but the bread and butter or where the money was at was in the "numbers."

That just didn't work for me, though I listened, I didn't do much more than that. And so I refined my little "herd" to just a few nice mares that produce well and are for the most part, correct, with perfect bites, good attitudes and I know each horse's immediate as well as many of their distant ancestors in person. I feel that this gives me a leg up as in I am more assured of what I will get when I breed, though not 100% noone has a 100% that every foal will be as good as their parents or not better, which is what I hope for.

I have just one or two foals per year, and I market them carefully. I don't get a fortune for them, but I am sure getting a good price for them compared to the auction prices, with an average closer to $3k.

So I AM doing what I think is right, and yes, it begins with all of us.

Jill said it, there are pet quality being produced every day by breeding show Q to show Q, just a fact of life and another reason why pedigree is not just the only factor to take into account when breeding.

If I cannot get fair prices/good homes for my few foals I sell, I will stop altogether and show my geldings.

Liz M.

 

[Buckskin gal]

It is so very true that 2 champions may not produce a Champion and yet time and again breeders advertise their foals for what the parents are and not necessarily for what the foal will be. If the larger breeders were not selling so many mares for breeding, to others, there would be far fewer minis. How many times do we see ads that say "breeding quality", not only for mares but also for fillies. And as for the prices at many auctions, it is not just junk that is being sold. I know of well known breeders who take their minis to auctions and take whatever they can get for them and don't care who the buyers are or what they will be doing with them. They produce so many that they have to get rid of them one way or another. This is just the sad state of affairs!

Mary

RR

There will always be pet quality,,,,,,,,,,even 2 very quality horses can not produce a top notch horse time and time again, one here and there will end up being a pet. So they will always be there.

I think mostly what is being said here is,,,,,,if you do have those pet quality,,,,or if you bought them,,,,and I know you are proud of them,,,,,,,,,,,do you breed the pet quality???????

Lisa,,,,,,,,it would be more than 500 less, gotta count the number THOSE 500 would have produced.

 

[CountryHaven]

I haven't read all the posts yet, I will in a minute, but after reading the original post I'll tell you, as long as it can happen, it will, and why? Because what's the first thing you see on here when there's been an auction people know about? "Where there good prices?" ... or "Wow, look at the great deal I got... (when applicable)"

People complaine about seeing them sell low... when they have horses to sell, but they SEEK out the lowest prices they can get and don't bid up prices at auctions because they want deals.

Before you flame me, I KNOW there are breeders not like that, but honestly, it's a large number on the other end.

 

[Reble]

I have not read everyones replys: But here is my opinon.

We all started off somewhere. I started with unregistered mare bred out, and got hooked and asked questions, and now we have AMHA/ AMHR registered horses.

If your horses are as good as you say, you will not have to take them to an Auction, they can be sold privately. Stick with your price.

Advertise Advertise is the only way to run a business. & word of mouth.

Nothing comes easy.

From the days of my parents to the day I die, we know we go to Auctions to get a Good Deal & Cheap.

People buy and sell once they are educated and see the difference. You can talk till the cows come home, change comes slowly, and prices come and go.

I Love Auctions since I was a little girl, when my mom used to take me. She always came home with a good buy, and someone else just thought it was junk. :new_shocked:

 

[mistyrose]

A. geld. Maybe clubs could sponsor gelding days to try to hold down the cost.

B. Non breeding registration papers.

C. Change futurities, shows etec to put emphasis on the mature animal. Right now the main emphasis is on the yearling. That requires a new show prospect every year. As a breed we need to give the highest honors to the mature horse.

And if you really want to slow breeding down and don't care if you p*ss people off. You could require all stallions and mares to pass an inspection before they can breed. Like what the Freisians have to pass to register offspring. Oh yeah and then we would need to blackball all the new registries that would spring up so people could keep breeding.

The most effective solution is in our own barns. Keep the mares and stallions totally apart.

 

[nootka]

I am lucky in that my vet gelds for $65 (at least that's what he charged for the last two normal gelding procedures). He said he would do a bunch but noone really wants to do it, that I've ever seen, they give it a lot of lip service, but oh well.

I refuse to stop breeding just one or two nice foals per year because I do think my horses are better than average quality for whatever reason. When it hasn't gone how I thought it might, I lowered my price to "pet" prices and researched the home as well. Yes, the horse was still dual registered, but sent to a non breeding, pet home, though she was thinking she may down the road want to show in the performance classes, and I know of other breeders with nice quality horses that have done the same thing (sold or given away to a good home), so I know those deals are out there for the "pet" market as it should be. It just should not be a market that anyone specifically aims for in any great number. A few bred per year for this is one thing, but tens to a hundred or better? Yikes. That adds up.

Liz M.

 

[Joyce]

Jill, I agree with your post 100% !!!!!!!!!!!!

The market is flooded and the prices refleck that.

Joyce L

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think we all know the real reason so many minis are now in this world..there was money to be made with breeding them. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make money but prices have come way down from what they used to be and now minis are seen at auctions and just about every street corner [well around here anyway] because they have been expolited. [my opinion] When there is an auction sale here, breeders from other States bring them because they can't sell them in their own State [or as I have heard some say], it is a good marketing tool to get their horses in other areas, I have never bought from an auction because I was afraid it may not be sound or have some other problem with it. NOW I may go ahead and buy from an auction after getting screwed over by the "well known" breeder. Heck, I know I could have gotten a better deal from the auction than what I did from a "breeder" who is not ethical. I truly believe that unethical breeders are making it hard for for those who are ethical, to sell. I know I became so dicouraged I felt like I didn't want to ever deal with another seller/breeder. Yep, people often buy at auctions to get something that is low priced and often sell it later for more money....and they aren't breaking any laws just making it easy for the person who breeds too many /has too many and then has to sell them at auctions. In a free world there will always be problems of this nature....love the free world but not necessarily everything that comes with it. When peole are giving away minis and dropping them on door steps, we know there is a problem. We can't control what others do, we can only control what we do. Just my 2 cents

Mary

 

[skanzler]

I have to say that I have read all of the posts on this and my opinion, like those of others, is my own. I have continued to see the rise in horses being bred for the sake of breeding..... " I have a mare and stallion, so therefore I breed." There is usually very little thought put into this. Many newbies are given a false sense of reward in the possibility of money at the end of the 11 month gestation of this cross. Many times these breeders end up "Getting out of the Minis" and trying to sell off these offspring and drastically low prices.

Unfortunately there are not enough reputable breeders out there selling thier horses with the correct information about what it takes to have a successful breeding program. They give false hope to many unsuspecting newcomers.

It takes a great deal of time, research, and unfortunately money to buy, breed and promote these horses. Advertising alone can cost thousands of dollars. Horses do not sell themselves. People expect thier horses bloodlines to sell them. In some cases this might be true, but just because your horse has Rowdy 5 generations back means nothing. How dilute is that blood by the time it gets to your offspring. Unless that horse was linebred through those last 5 generations.

Education is always the best way to help the newcomers and some of the older breeders. But even with education people tend toward the easiest road.

What I hate seeing is the BIG sell off and in the same breath they say 10 new foals coming, must make room....... WHY????????