A lot of complaints over prices at auctions,

[HGFarm]

This is one reason I have only four mares- and they took me months to find and one I bred myself. I have picked through MANY to find the specific ones I want. I try to breed the best quality to the best quality- and you are all right- that does NOT mean the foals will come out show quality, but I think I have been lucky with some really good ones.

There are great horses out there with pet homes, nobody is saying you have to be a show home to enjoy, love and take care of your Minis.

However, my objection is the poor quality mare that is bred to a stallion that is not very good either- they have conformation faults that are not in the best interest of the breed at all, yet they are being bred, because they can. I feel this is what is glutting the market.

And I'm sorry but for those who breed for 'numbers' in hopes of maybe getting a good one? Wow... to me those are nothing but 'puppy mills' just breeding to try to make a buck. Not fair to the breed either!

Noone is saying that a foal is always going to come out a show horse, but at least if the parents are decent, the breeder is trying to improve the breed, not pull it down by breeding poor quality stock to begin with.

 

[nootka]

skanzler makes some good points. My main advice for anyone new is to take a few steps back and wade in slowly, ever so slowly, attend clubs' shows, clinics, farms, and perhaps lease a nice show horse before you jump in and buy up a herd.

More often than not, I see someone touting their wonderful "herdsire" and he's anything but that type (I mean beyond type, but down to incorrectness, and outright dwarfy). I feel badly for them, and for the future of the horses to be bred, probably to be sold for far less than they ever dreamed. Cute does not cut it anymore, not for anything but bottom dollar, sadly.

I don't know that I have what it takes to be in the "high dollar" end of it. I think I know a nice horse when I see one, and I am also beginning to have a healthy respect for what goes into it.

Another thing aside from actual bloodlines that I see being used for advertising (and being taken hook, line, and sinker by some unsuspecting newbie), is using a "farm name" to pull 'em in. Farm names are even worse than actual horse names far back in the pedigree b/c not every horse that came from any one farm is worthy of being bred/show, whatever your criteria. If anyone's honest, they know that no matter what the name, the horse itself must be considered and what's reputed to be "inside" is of less consequence.

Liz

 

[Cathy_H]

I have been saying on this forum since the nineties that the miniature horse market has become saturated. Too much supply & not enough demand.. ............... Some people feel since the miniature horse numbers are not as high as some of the big horse breeds it ain't so.

: .................. What did Lee & I do about it? We decreased our herd from 23 to currenlty 8.... Years ago we sold several young fillies that we were keeping for broodmares. We have averaged 2-3 foals a year since 1986 with one filly this year.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I am new to this so I will speak from the "less informed" perspective. It's OK. I know I'm new and have a TON to learn!

I don't think the mini world appreciates geldings as much as some other horse breeds do. I know we have some special gelding things that are offered, but more emphasis could be placed on gelding.

I agree with Libby in that it would change things dramatically if we had some type of "inspection" process before horses could be shown. I may be wrong about this, but I think the European clubs require this - at least I think they do before a stallion can breed.

The idea of a non-breeding registration may help also. I'm not sure about this one.

Lastly, I don't remember who is was, but I TOTALLY agree with changing the Futurity process. If we focused on mature horses I do think it would eliminate some of the mass breeding, but the A and R wouldn't make as much money as they do now if they did that. And that brings us back to the Futurity payouts - they would be less also. I don't know. Maybe the fees could be raised to compensate for this.

Education is key! When we purchased our very first minis, the breeder we bought from was very informative. She clearly explained that too many minis were being bred just for the sake of having babies and that descreation was needed. She asked us what our goal was. If it was to breed then I needed to buy the best I could afford and ONLY breed after research, etc. to make sure I made a good decision in matching the mare and stallion. If what I wanted were lovable pets, then there were be other horses to choose from for that. She also explained dwarfism and what to look for and avoid.

Granted, there is more to raising quality horses than we got on that initial visit, but it was a great start and I try to carry on the tradition and educate all I come in contact with.

Great thread. Good food for thought!

 

[runamuk]

What are you going to do about it????

What can we do about it?????

Are YOU willing to help improve the market and if so, how?

If we are going to do a lot of griping, complaining and whinning about those prices, we've got to be able to offer a solution as well.

When I coached tennis,,,,,my number one rule,,,,,,,,,,if you are going to come to me about a complaint,,,,,you had better have a reasonable, thought out solution to offer as well.

It seems that many "think" the solution lies with others,,,,,,,,,,,I say the solution lies with us all.

At auctions,,,,,,,,,,,have a NO Sale on horses instead of giving them away,

Breed less,

and my goal for the next year,,,,,,,,,market my horses the way they should be.

Create a bill similar to the one being proposed in Ohio to reduce the number of dogs able to be owned without a license

:

Require anyone breeding horses to be licensed and inspected at a hefty fee.......................hey if it will work for dogs it ought to work for horses

:

:

 

[littlearab]

I agree 100% with Jill and other who have said the market is flooded with miniatures.

Only in the mini world is there every mare must be bred mind set and every colt is a stallion. No matter what the horse is really like. In most other breds of horse many 1/2 the mares are everbred and most of them only once or twice.. but if its a miniature if she not bred by 3 there something wrong with her right. In any other bred 1 in 100s of colts remain a stallion and some of them are never ever used for breeding. But in the miniature world every colt is a stallion for breeding.. almost every colt is sold for bred at least once to see what he'll sire right.

I was talking to someone the other night. And the other person told me they have a dwarf mare ,who has dwarf foals, but only once in while,,,

Now I ask you why one earth is this mare being bred?? In no other breed would a mare who has a HEALTH issue that is being passed on be bred?? Only in the miniautre world why.. because it's a mare.. because even if a dwarf they can sell it..

This was not a back yard breeder ,but well known..

I see it this way.. only in the miniature world are horses sold as weanlings with the promise of being bred in 3 years or less.They can get thier money back right.

We need to change the way we sell miniatures... sell your horses with the promise of being family pets and cart horse and yes... even riding horses for small childern. As I see it in the miniature world people see their horses only 2 ways breeding and showing to make more money by breeding them later. When someone says they want a miniature just for a pet they are jumped on, and God forbid if they one for a riding pony or to use at pony pulls ect. They can pull carts ,but only in shows.

MINIATURE HORSES NEED TO BE USED FOR MORE THEN BREEDING!!

We have to change the way we LOOK at our horses, see them as horses not money makers, not foal makers. Only then is there hope that the over breeding stop. When everyone stop useing the old line "and later you can bred her or him" to sell horses will it even begin to slow down.

 

[runamuk]

I agree 100% with Jill and other who have said the market is flooded with miniatures.

Only in the mini world is there every mare must be bred mind set and every colt is a stallion. No matter what the horse is really like. In most other breds of horse many 1/2 the mares are everbred and most of them only once or twice..

Actually this same philosophy is common and has to some degree ruined the arab market. The attitude of if you can't show her you breed her permeates the arabians :no: :no: and every colt must be grown out or used at least one season to see if he is good enough

:

 

[Danielle_E.]

Putting on my flame suit but my personal opinion is that there are too many minis being bred yearly and the market is flooded. Whether pet quality or "show" quality there are just too many period and when you see numbers being bred on the larger farms on a yearly basis, whether show quality or pet quality it is flooding the market with the high number of foals being born. As many have said supply and demand and the supply no matter what the quality of the animal has now reached above the saturation point and who in the end pays for our human folly? The horses of course, how very sad.

 

[littlearab]

I agree 100% with Jill and other who have said the market is flooded with miniatures.

Only in the mini world is there every mare must be bred mind set and every colt is a stallion. No matter what the horse is really like. In most other breds of horse many 1/2 the mares are everbred and most of them only once or twice..

Actually this same philosophy is common and has to some degree ruined the arab market. The attitude of if you can't show her you breed her permeates the arabians :no: :no: and every colt must be grown out or used at least one season to see if he is good enough

:

I do agree 100%

: Saddly, yes the buy to bred to make big bucks did ruin the arab market in the 80s. And I see it is ruining the miniature market now.

But it not true with arabs any more, most of the people who own arab mares now do not bred them... they ride them .. use them.And I only know one person who does not geld every colt off thier farm. There are alot less arab stallions then minis.. no matter how you look at it.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

What are you going to do about it????

What can we do about it?????

Are YOU willing to help improve the market and if so, how?

Regarding the current market, I think alot of the recent prices reflect the overall state of our country, not just the miniature horse market. Horses are a 'luxury' item and with the political unrest people tend to spend less on luxuries. This happened during the Enron fiasco too, and after 911, if anyone remembers.

As we've been selling minis steadily this year, I can't say that we're having a bad year as far as sales go. Some have been for less than they might have brought a few years ago and a few have been for more. But I've also been more realistic in what I believe my horses are worth in the current market.

We've only bred four mares for 2007, out of the 33 breeding age mares we own. We may only breed a few in 2007 as well. It will depend on the supply/demand that I see come Spring.

We have also began gelding many of our stallions and will do another batch as soon as the weather/fly season ends.

I'm not as quick to geld as some are - one of those Catch 22's I haven't been able to work out in my head - we need to geld all but the best, yet need more genetic diversity in minis!

That said, the ones I geld aren't all wonky crap! I do feel a few are nicer than some of the breeding animals I see (at least lots of places I've been in person and on the web). No, I'm not saying they're National Champion material or the mini world will grind to a halt without them, but if we're all realistic, there are only so many NC's every year and showing isn't the be all and end all for everyone!

Having said that, I do like what Libby said in her post. If we did have a higher standard testing like Europe, the proof would be there. As we don't when I'm looking at stallions now - I would like to see one that is halter pretty, athletic, moves well, great tempermant and his foals are knock outs!

It would be great to create a broader market for the older show horses too. Futurity money for the older ones is a great idea!

Bottom line, if we all minded our ranch/farm breeding practices, educate everyone (including ourselves) on minis and breeding, push for more gelding incentives (no breed papers, cash prizes, low/no fees) with the registries and clubs then the market will stay strong. I feel most of the Forum members aspire to do better, so it's getting the word out to others!

, the market will improve.

 

[Ronnie]

I haven't read all the posts yet, I will in a minute, but after reading the original post I'll tell you, as long as it can happen, it will, and why? Because what's the first thing you see on here when there's been an auction people know about? "Where there good prices?" ... or "Wow, look at the great deal I got... (when applicable)"

People complaine about seeing them sell low... when they have horses to sell, but they SEEK out the lowest prices they can get and don't bid up prices at auctions because they want deals.

Before you flame me, I KNOW there are breeders not like that, but honestly, it's a large number on the other end.

Very well said! I find that most folks want to buy cheap and sell high and most think everyone else should stop breeding. Sales in and of them selves are not a bad thing and offer a valuable outlet to the industry. True they are usually wholesale prices more often than retail but again that is the nature of auction sales. In my opinion the single most effective thing that could be done to improve auction prices is if right after each sale if everyone would communicate the good prices and the positives instead of the negatives then you would see a marked increase in the quality and prices at most sales. If you go to a good sale then report that and everyone you tell will want to attend that good sale and you will see it become better. If you report negative then the type people you want to attract will stay away but you just kindled the interest of the many people out there that want to buy a $100 horse and they will be there next sale. Perception becomes reality in this business so if you want quality put forth the perception of quality and give it time to work (it won't happen over night). I know almost everyone on this board in one way or another, and I have the highest respect for this group. I know they are a super group of people and truly have the best for the miniature world at heart but I think that constantly reporting bad prices and negative sale results is counterproductive to what you really want to accomplish. When you report good results you are advertising for that sale, however when you report poor/cheap prices you are also advertising for that sell to all the buyers looking for those cheap prices. Talk up the good ones and help them improve for all concerned and don’t even talk publicly about the bad ones and let them die out on their own. Be part of the positive, there will be enough negative with out any help!

Okay, off my soap box,

Ronnie Clifton

 

[Tony]

Thanks Ronnie. I couldn't have said it better.

A song I used to sing: "Accentuate the positive, eliminate the negative, latch on to the affirmative, don't mess with Mr. In Between."

 

[Jill]

I just want to say some people are agreeing with "me" that the market is flooded with miniatures. That's not really the entire reflection of my opinion and since I am going to be breeding 5 or so mares next spring, it makes me feel like I'm going to look like I do a bunch of double talking.

Personally, I am very proud and happy to own the quality horses I have that were bred by others. At this stage, I want to produce some really nice foals for myself and others to enjoy. It's not that the market is flooded with outstanding miniatures, but that the market is flooded with pet quality miniatures.

It's my opinion that there will always be people looking for quality minis, and that we cannot continue to improve the breed if there weren't a group of people out there who are honestly trying to produce show quality horses, vs. those out there who got a stallion who's a neat color and a couple little mares (just like a hodge podge herd).

I can tell you though if I breed 5-6 mares and have 5-6 foals I'd wished to sell but are still unsold the following spring, I won't keep repeating my actions and expecting different results!

 

[kaykay]

ronnie i so agree with everything you said! i started a new post because i feel so strongly about it. If you are just negative all the time then thats all you get.

we have to be positive in promoting our miniatures and let people know how wonderful they are and stop all this doom and gloom etc.

We arent promoting if we are all sitting around griping

 

[Frankie]

I haven't see that much negative on this thread. I have seen some suggestions that I believe would help. If the right person is listening.

I agree positive works,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but being positive doesn't make a concern disappear. Be positive about helping eliminate the negative!

I have never sold at an auction,,,,,,there seems to be a lot concerned with those prices. Just thought we could all offer suggestions to help with this negative.

In my opinion, I do not see any doom or gloom, just concern.

Sometimes the negative has to be added, and I think breeding is a good example, we can't let a new person think it's all cute to get a new foal and never inform them of the heartache as well.

 

[Minimor]

I was talking to someone the other night. And the other person told me they have a dwarf mare ,who has dwarf foals, but only once in while,,,

Well, from what I've seen there's enough of that going on--actually not a dwarf, but horses with dwarf characteristics--and what IMO is worse is the breeder who has a dwarf producer, but totally denies he is a dwarf producer & shifts the blame on to the other half of the equation. But that is off topic...

People complaine about seeing them sell low... when they have horses to sell, but they SEEK out the lowest prices they can get and don't bid up prices at auctions because they want deals

I don't agree with this statement. Very often people don't bid up prices at auctions because there are so many horses & so few buyers, no one needs to bid up the horses they want. There's just no one bidding against them. If demand exceeded supply, then you get people bidding up the prices. When supply exceeds demand, then prices are low. Many buyers at these auctions go to see what's selling--they aren't really interested in buying, they just want to see what others are selling/buying, plus it's a chance to socialize. There's a spring horse & tack sale here every year. I go to it most years, even though there's nothing I plan on buying--it's fun to see what's selling for how much, and I get to talk to lots of people that I otherwise don't meet up with all year. There are many others there just like me. If something I like comes through & no one much is bidding on it & it's a bargain, sure, I might put in a bid & buy it. I'm not going to get into the high bids, because I don't need it, and don't want it that badly. If I were there with plans to actually buy something--be it a specific horse or some tack item, then yeah, I'm willing to bid it up to whatever price I figure is fair for it. If it's a bridle, for instance, I'm not going to bid more than what I can buy it for in a store, but if it's a horse that I really, really want, I'd bid it up there. If no one else wants that item, then no one is going to bid against me, & obviously I'm going to get it at a bargain price.

In my opinion the single most effective thing that could be done to improve auction prices is if right after each sale if everyone would communicate the good prices and the positives instead of the negatives then you would see a marked increase in the quality and prices at most sales. If you go to a good sale then report that and everyone you tell will want to attend that good sale and you will see it become better.

If you report negative then the type people you want to attract will stay away but you just kindled the interest of the many people out there that want to buy a $100 horse and they will be there next sale. This is a fine theory, but what happens when sale after sale has poor prices. People ask how did the sale go, what were the prices like--what response are people supposed to give?? "I don't want to talk about it"? "Horse A brought $1600, Horse C brought $2500, Horse E brought $3500, and the rest I can't comment on"? Just give no answer at all & pretend the sale didn't happen? Or when a new owner comes along, don't warn that if they're planning to sell at such & such a sale, be aware that in the past 3 years horses have been averaging only $250? Instead avoid mention of the sale that is near to them & tell them about how at the Little King Sale horses frequently sell for 5 figure amounts? That's entirely misleading, and would encourage a newbie to buy a few horses & go into the breeding with expectations of getting 5 figure amounts for their horses...

 

[wpsellwood]

Lastly, I don't remember who is was, but I TOTALLY agree with changing the Futurity process. If we focused on mature horses I do think it would eliminate some of the mass breeding, but the A and R wouldn't make as much money as they do now if they did that. And that brings us back to the Futurity payouts - they would be less also. I don't know. Maybe the fees could be raised to compensate for this.

Just a FYI, they are changing the Futurity to only yearlings at the AMHA Worlds, amt yearling, aote, and open. They are taking away the 2yr and hunter futurity.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Right on Carolyn, Another point that may be considered is if people say the auctions are bringing high prices on minis, many will not attend because they are looking for that "good buy" ...To me the best way to sell a horse is to represent it honestly. When sellers break laws, rules and misrepresent what they sell it makes for worse sales for themselves and even others because trust is lost by the buyer. Treat your customer with respect and honesty for it makes for more sales at a later date. I might add, anyone selling miniatures should know the rules and regulations of the registeries they are in and the laws of their State. Any seller that justifies it's actions by pleading ignorance is not an asset to the industry. And I do want to be positive and add, I have bought from some very nice people but then there are........ :no: Mary

ote name='Frankie' date='Oct 26 2006, 08:17 AM' post='703110']

I haven't see that much negative on this thread. I have seen some suggestions that I believe would help. If the right person is listening.

I agree positive works,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but being positive doesn't make a concern disappear. Be positive about helping eliminate the negative!

I have never sold at an auction,,,,,,there seems to be a lot concerned with those prices. Just thought we could all offer suggestions to help with this negative.

In my opinion, I do not see any doom or gloom, just concern.

Sometimes the negative has to be added, and I think breeding is a good example, we can't let a new person think it's all cute to get a new foal and never inform them of the heartache as well.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Plus, another thought- many people "dump" their poorer stock at auctions- even the bigger ones. I've seen some horses at major Mini auctions I'd never have in my barn. If people would send a better quality animal, the prices should rise.

I've heard several people say they were "taking her/him to an auction to get rid of them"... because the horse had a problem. At the Mt Hope auction in OH several years ago I was smitten by a lovely palomino pinto filly. Whan I asked her breeder/owner how her bite was, I was told it was "fine". When I opened her mouth, it was so off I could see her TONGUE! The owner just smirked at me whan I looked over at her...

Instead of using auctions to "get rid" of horses, we need to use them as a place to highlight our breeding programs! The "look at what I'm making" idea.

There will always be uncaring BYBs ( meaning people who breed many for cheap profit, not the people who actually only have a few Minis in their backyard... :lol: maybe I should call them ponymill instead) that dump their unwanteds at auction. Plus, I don't think that having non-breeding papers will work- many BYBs don't care about papers. And someone who buys a NB(non-breeding) mare may decide they want a foal anyways, have a foal, decide it's too much hassle, and away they go.... a vicious circle.

Lucy

 

[anita]

An auction is a presentation of your farm, advertising you breeding program! I would bring my best horse to show the public whats on my ranch, over 30 of them. Make a reserve on horses! If it doesn't need you price range take the horse back.

If one use auctions as a dump place they get judged for that all year long or you think people come on their ranch to buy more? It should be a marketing place.

Btw I like auctions and support them and am always happy with good stock. This is a part of our industry.

See y'all at the next aution

Anita