AMHA Changed their Color Policy!

[Sheri Hill]

AMHR wouldn't put pinto on my filly who I had tested and is pos. for tobiano. I sent a copy of the test too. She only has 4 socks a star and mixed tail. :no: VERY, VERY sad when we have genetic proof and they won't put it on the papers! I want my horse represented correctly, especially on their registry papers!!!!

Just ridiculous!!! They should be adding more color possiblities so more horses and pedigrees are correct not taking them away so our horses are mis labeled, mis identified and don't match their papers!!! :no:

:

Sheri

WELL! If we are being told that we cannot use the actual color our horses ARE......................................then I'm going to call everyone here PINTOS!

......OOPS...I have a Bay Tobiano.....Let's call him ...........BUCKSKIN!

Will AMHR allow us to register our horses their correct colors?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Until they accept the Silver Bay option do not register- send in your papers with Silver Bay and the No changes option ticked and stick to it- keep sending it back, stand your ground.

I am sorry, I have no Silver Bays this year- I should have, but I lost the mare and the foal, otherwise I should be putting forward a Silver Bay Minimal Pinto- and sticking to it until it was accepted.

I should be quite happy to make "a case" out of it too.

However nice we are- and I do agree with polite at all times, this is NOT legal.

It is as simple as that.

As Laura points out in her letter, if we misrepresented the animal deliberately when registering and were to be found out we would be penalised, and strongly so.

Yet they are now telling us we have to do this??

I do not think so!!

 

[Margo_C-T]

Sorry, but by definition, a bay does not occur with a flaxen mane and tail--no WAY would I 'give in' to this unbelievably backwards decree by calling a horse something it cannot BE.

When you send off to a reputable, certified lab for genetic testing, and have the official results(as with the cited instance of the MINIMAL tobi which had been tested to be just that, that should CERTAINLY be sufficient proof for the registry to accept!) We used to 'scratch our heads' about just such horses; now, because of research, it is KNOWN that a horse can be genetically tobiano with such a minimal phenotypical appearance--good gosh, it is these kinds of advancement in knowledge that have enabled 'color' breeding programs--yet a national registry 'can't' RECOGNIZE such proven advancements? GIVE ME A BREAK....!

I completely agree with Jane(rabbitsfizz). I believe it could be shown to be patently ILLEGAL to instruct people to misrepresent horses in this manner--and even worse, when there is NO legitimate reason to do so!

I will be composing an email to various 'powers that be' at AMHA, expressing my STRONG disagreement with this 'policy', as we are hearing of it being carried out--AND requesting that this issue be addressed with full disclosure on the AMHA website and/or in an email to ALL members. If what we have been hearing is not correct, then they should PLEASE, issue the FACTS on this matter, so that all may know. I applaud 'blueprints'(Laura)for her letter, and feel we should ALL take a similar stance-polite, yes--but absolutely FIRM in our resolve.

I have belonged to AMHA for 22-23 years, and have been a Lifetime Member for, oh, 12 -14 years, I guess-- heaven knows, I have 'been there' through an inordinate number of 'ups and downs'--but this REALLY takes the cake.....!

Margo

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Hello, I am pasting a letter that went out to the people that emailed me directly. I want all to know I DID NOT as a committee chair or otherwise recommend to disallow silver bay, it was already in the office as such when I became chair and I was unaware to me until last year what the new system ws setup as such. THe letter below hopefully will help you see who made these decisions, and where I stand, with my hands tied.

John

Hello Everyone,

It has been a very eventful few days to say the least. I am writing all who have personally emailed me in regards to the Silver Bay delimma, to tell my side of the situation and to hopefully clear up the situation as best that can be done. Remember there is your side, my side, and then there is the AMHA BOD's side to this.

To begin I am going to give some history, some of it might not be perfect but at least you will get an understanding of how this situation has come to pass. Back in 2003 when the "new" color codes list was approved by the BOD, the list was inherently flawed in terminology. Example being the silvers are referred to on this list as Dapples, ie dapple bay not Silver bay. I was not involved in this nor was I involved with the Genetics committee at that time. So therefore when the "new" system finally was workable as of last year, this list from 2003 was put into the new system for use without any involvement or advice from the current Genetics committee. And many of you know that the genetics world changes quite rapidly, since 2003 there are many new color tests and the equine genome has been sequenced.

Back in 2005 I was involved in research with a lab in Europe to find a test for the silver dapple gene. My Miniature horses were the main test subjects used for the Miniature breed, I was involved in this through Dr. Cothran who at the time was at UK with me and was helping gather samples for this test to be designed. I was trusted with this due to my knowledge of equine colors and the Miniature breed. Other breeds used in this test design were the Rocky Mountain horse and Shetland that I can immediately remember. So I am very familiar with this test and how it came to be available. The test is called the silver test.

Last year I received some emails about the not allowing silver bay due to the terminology used in the color codes used in the new system at the AMHA office. Subsequently at this year's Natl. convention in FEB., I gave my committee report to the board of directors and informed the membership and the BOD that the silver dapple test was now available and it is called the Silver test not the Dapple test, and that the terms used in the color codes that were to be used in the new system is inherently flawed and it needed to be changed immediately. This is because members will be getting their horses tested for this gene and it is correctly referred to as SILVER not dapple due to the fact there is a already a color modifier known to exist that has nothing to do with silver called obviously, DAPPLING, i.e. a palomino with dapples, or a black with dapples, or a bay with dapples, etc. SO, I strongly recommended the BOD take the necessary steps asap to have the color codes changed to have a section of silver, ie. silver bay, silver chestnut, silver palomino etc.

Now mind you at the time of the Natl meeting there had already been problems with this in the registration dept. and I had found out about the color code list how it had happened due to these instances. The registration Dept. can only do what they have been instructed to do, unfortunately they were doing things that were decided on by a BOD that had incorrect information. AND the Reg. dept. is not trained in equine coat colors, so they were telling people that the silver does not exist and that the genetics committee and BOD made this decision. They were not purposefully misleading but what they needed to say was that the Reg. dept is using this code "dapple" for the color name for silver dapple, ie. dapple bay, etc. and that the members can register their silver horses as such. This is NOT what I want nor is it correct but at least it will keep things easy to get corrected properly when Silver is used in the system.

As of this morning, July 3rd 2007, I personally spoke with Pam in the Registration Dept. and requested, as the AMHA Genetics committee chairman, that the registration dept. register all silver horses as dapples until this problem can truly be resolved correctly. The reason is that in order for a section to be added in the color codes list in the computer, the change recommendation must come from the BOD in order for the office to do anything, which is how it should work. That way once the name can be changed to Silver it will be easy for the computer programmer to find all of the silver horses as dapples in the system.

I strongly recommend anyone that registered a horse as anything other than dapple when it clearly is silver to contact the reg. dept to have it changed to dapple (_) so it will be easily found when it does get changed to silver. I know that the terms used currently regarding Silver is genetically incorrect, and I warned the BOD in Feb. this was going to occur, let us all try to be understanding of our AMHA's beaurocracy.

:

I will be contacting Mike Want with regards to this and to see how quickly the BOD can get this fixed, considering they knew in Feb. Also, I know from the office that it will not be hard at all to add a new color section to the color code list into the computer, they just need the ok from the BOD, so members, I suggest you all get with your Directors and get them to have a change passed asap.

As a committee chairman I can only recommend things to the BOD I can not make the changes happen, I wish I could in this case. I hope that this has helped clear up the confusion.

:

:

Sincerely,

John Eberth

AMHA Genetics Committee Chairman.

 

[kaykay]

John

Thanks for clarifying that. When I read the previous posts I knew there had to be more to the story

:

 

[Songcatcher]

Thank you John for posting. As I said before, there has to be some misunderstandinig and miscommunication.

John's letter explains some of the reasons for miscommunication. A problem remains and needs to be fixed. Let's work together to fix the problem as quickly as possible. :bgrin

 

[shalamara minis]

Thank you John for taking the time to post!

 

[Dona]

Thanks for clarifying that John.

: I'm glad we are at least being given an "option" to use, that will eventually be able to be corrected to the correct terminology. I, for one, appreciate all your efforts in genetic study....ie: dwarfism & color gene testing. This will eventually benefit the Breed immensely!

I have a question tho.....why is it so hard to get office staff in the AMHA office that know Miniatures? If they are going to work in a Miniature Horse Registration office..... IMHO, they should LEARN or be TRAINED to recognize colors & their proper terminology, if they don't already know it. How on earth can our members expect to get questions answered, when they know more than the staff does?

 

[sfmini]

They have to learn on the job as one of the requirements to work for AMHA is that the employees NOT own miniature horses.

I know that sounded kind of screwy to me when I first heard it, but it does make sense. There is absolutely no way for any of them to be accused of 'fixing' their own paperwork or any other conflict of interest. So, some staff come from other horse breeds or in some cases, not horse people at all.

Just hang tight as the new computer system comes to life, and then the genetics committee can work on refining the colors with your help.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and with the years of experience I have with large computer systems, they are not built in a day, week, month, sometimes year.

I would like to challenge you all to try working constructively with the AMHA instead of going on the attack every time something doesn't go the way you think it should. There are always more sides to a story than are apparent, and I learned a very long time ago you catch more flies with honey. I try to keep an eye on this board and forward CONSTRUCTIVE comments but there are people who's posts I mostly ignore due to the negativity and name calling. :deadhorse2:

: :new_let_it_all_out:

:

Ok, off to put on my flame suit and take some percocets.

:

 

[Lewella]

Back in 2005 I was involved in research with a lab in Europe to find a test for the silver dapple gene. My Miniature horses were the main test subjects used for the Miniature breed, I was involved in this through Dr. Cothran who at the time was at UK with me and was helping gather samples for this test to be designed. I was trusted with this due to my knowledge of equine colors and the Miniature breed. Other breeds used in this test design were the Rocky Mountain horse and Shetland that I can immediately remember. So I am very familiar with this test and how it came to be available. The test is called the silver test.

The primary breed used for isolating the gene was Icelandics. The breeds used to verify that the correct markers had been found were Miniatures, Rocky Mountain Horses, and Morgans. The markers for Rocky Mountain Horses did not match perfectly and that is being researched further to determine if silver in Rocky Mountain Horses is a different mutation and if that would possibly be the cause of ASD in Rocky Mountain Horses.

 

[Arion Mgmt]

Lewella,

Yes you are correct in that the Icelandics were used initially for the isolation of a suspected gene for silver, however in order for this potential gene to be considered an actual color gene and not a different gene that is linked to a random color gene with the silver Icelandics, is to see if the gene found is seen in other horse breeds with silver, and if those sequences match and this gene HAS to be in all of the horses with silver characteristics only. Then you can be more confident in the gene being a true color gene and be a gene for silver. I have ommitted numerous things with gene research but suffice it to say, using the Icelandics initially was due to convienience for the lab in Europe and that they had the silver color the right samples with large families samples to trace inheritance patterns. No different than how gen studies are done in the states with breeds common here and easy to get the right samples. I am pretty sure the Shetlands were used to compare as well since the Miniatures have Shetland in them, and yes you are right the Morgans were used as well. Yes, the Rocky Mountain's sequence was slightly different, there are numerous possibilities to this, anything from a major foundation sire having the different sequence as the root, or it is true silver gene with inheritance patterns that gives the appearance of silver and acts similar yet linked to ASD, there are many possibilities. That is why they tested all known breeds with the silver to see how this gene has been changed if any with the development of the breeds. This is known as large population analysis and inheritance pattern studies, something Dr. Cothran is the expert in, and I am sure that is why he was involved. Anyways this is probably more than most wanted to know about.

John

 

[horsehug]

Nope, John,

Not more than I want to hear.

You know I always learn from you about genetics. And you explain things very well.

Thanks!

Susan O.

 

[alphahorses]

Yes, the Rocky Mountain's sequence was slightly different, there are numerous possibilities to this, anything from a major foundation sire having the different sequence as the root, or it is true silver gene with different inheritance patterns that gives the appearance of silver and acts similar yet linked to ASD, there are many possibilities.

John

John,

Could you please clarify? Has ASD been found to be an issue for miniature horses or shetlands with the silver gene? Or does it appear to be isolated to Rocky Mountain and a few other gaited breeds?

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

John,

Could you please clarify? Has ASD been found to be an issue for miniature horses or shetlands with the silver gene? Or does it appear to be isolated to Rocky Mountain and a few other gaited breeds?

I am not John nor anywhere near as knowledgeable on this genetics stuff but I can tell you that ASD does happen in minis I have had a foal with it and know of others who have had foals with it as well

 

[Mona]

I will be contacting Mike Want with regards to this and to see how quickly the BOD can get this fixed, considering they knew in Feb. Also, I know from the office that it will not be hard at all to add a new color section to the color code list into the computer, they just need the ok from the BOD, so members, I suggest you all get with your Directors and get them to have a change passed asap.

Jody, what I would like to know, is if the above statement is correct, and if it is as simple as waiting for an OK from the BOD, then why can they not correspond by email, or better yet, an emergency teleconference to get this cleared up immediately?? That would seem to be the most logical and fastest way to deal with this, and then people would not have to go through the registry process...they could be granted a little extra tme on those silver horses without late fees being charged?? Of course, if showing, then they would need it immediately, but there would be far fewer if they could be held while this is being resolved. Otherwise, I think that Rabbit hit the nail on the head, in stating that we as members should INSIST that our horses are silver bay and do not give in to letting AMHA celect a color, until this whole thing is straightened out.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It does seem daft to ask people to register their horses as an incorrect color so that the AMHA can find those horses at a later date.

What is wrong with simply registering them as the correct colour in the first place??

That way you avoid having to re-register the horses (even if the AMHA waived all the costs, and I cannot see that happening, personally, there is still the HUGE inconvenience, especially for people showing, of sending in the papers to get them changed over).

The matter of requiring people to register a false statement has neatly been side stepped, I see.

People this is not legal, it has nothing to do with "the AMHA should do this" or "we think the AMHA should do that", if you register your horse as a different colour to the one you KNOW (this is the important bit!!) that it is then you could be sued by a buyer.

YOU could be sued and then you would have to sue the AMHA for making you do it.

I know it is unlikely but there are some very VERY strange people out there and stranger things have happened.

Basically they are requiring you to enter a false statement.

They CANNOT do that

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Rabbit I keep hearing you say people could get sued and are committing fraud and you would never do it but you have also said your registry/society there has the same color issues and doesnt register horses there correct color either so I am curious as to what you are doing? Are you just not registering horses until the issue is solved?

 

[Tony]

I must correct an incorrect statement that I made in a previous post. I was not on the committee in 2003, as I stated, but, according to the minutes of the meeting, I made the motion to accept the color codes that were presented by the committee. The best that I can remember, the actual list that was accepted by the committee was compiled by the registrar at the time, Wanda Litten, and the committee chairman, Barbara Naviaux and the committee, Robin Miller, Nancy Rivenburgh, and Sharon Taylor. The "dapple" was the accepted alternative, I suppose, which we were using as interchangable with "silver". On the list, which was supplied to me by Pam, head of registration now, these are the options for silver dapple:

ASD = Silver Dapple Appaloosa

PSD = Silver Dapple Pinto

DBA = (Silver) Dapple Bay (Parenthis mine, but I believe understood)

DBR = (Silver) Dapple Brown

DBU = (Silver) Dapple Buckskin

DCH = (Silver) Dapple Champagne

DCS = (Silver) Dapple Chestnut

DDN = (Silver) Dapple Dun

DGR = (Silver) Dapple Grey

DPA = (Silver) Dapple Palomino

DSL = (Silver) Dapple Silver

LSD = Silver Dapple Pintaloosa

RSD = Silver Dapple Roan

SSD = Solid Silver Dapple

The committee then and now is required to have distinctive color abbreviations, which must contain three letters. It is not an easy task, and as you can easily see by this thread, it can be a highly criticized task, too. The letter "S" is already used for "Solid" at the beginning of a description.

 

[R3]

OK, I'm trying to get this straight... AMHA does accept Silver Bay, BUT in their studbook, it is being called 'Dapple Bay' and the color code for it is DBA. They are recognizing Silver, but using the genetically inaccuarate term 'Dapple' instead of the correct genetic term, Silver. So, that part is OK after all. No one is being asked to 'misrepresent' their horse's color. We can register our horses their true color, but just not using a genetically 'accurate' color terminolgy. This doesn't seem like such a huge problem after all!

All we need to do now is change the terminology to be accurate, we don't need to get AMHA to accept a 'new' color. That seems to be a simple enough thing to do in a fairly short time frame.

Given the list of codes that Tony just provide, you can see where AMHA tried to do the right thing by identifying the 'silver' variations of colors as 'Dapple' using the 'D' in the color code. So, now we need to figure out a better/more accurate code. Since we can't use the letter 'S' to denoter Silver (since, as Tony pointed out, 'S' is used to denoten Solid) why don't they consider using the letter 'Z' for Silver? 'Z' is the letter that is used in genetics testing to indicate a the Silver Gene. So, if your horse genetically tested positive for the Silver gene, your result would be either ZZ (homozygous) or Zz (heterozygous). It would seem to be a logical letter to use to represent a Silver horse in the color code. So, a Dapple Bay (DBA) would become a Silver Bay (ZBA) and a Silver Buckskin would be ZBU. Basically, just replace the 'D' with a 'Z'.

As was already suggested, if people will, just for now, register their horses as Dapple Bay or Dapple Bucksking, etc,, which in current AMHA terminology MEANS Silver Bay and Silver Buckskin, etc, they will be color coded as such, and then when the computer folks are given the go-ahead to change DBA (Dapple Bay) to ZBA (Silver Bay) and all the other Silver colors, the change should be instantaneous. The Dapple colors will be Silver colors, and everyone will be happy. And, even the folks into genetics should be pleased that AMHA is knowledgeable enough about colors that their color code has used a true 'genetic' abbreviation.

 

[Mona]

I suppose they could do away with the "D"(dapple) and r4place it with "V"(since silver has a v in it), making the silver color code list look like this:

VBA = (Silver) Bay

VBR = (Silver) Brown

VBU = (Silver) Buckskin

VCH = (Silver) Champagne

VCS = (Silver) Chestnut

VDN = (Silver) Dun

VGR = (Silver) Grey

VPA = (Silver) Palomino