AMHA temp to perm

[maryann]

I have a stallion I need to take Perm with AMHA. As this is the only AMHA horse I have ,

I don't have to do paperwork with them that often. I am shocked to

see that the charge for a Stallion is $50 dollars, a mare is $25 and a gelding is $10. And that is ifyou are a member and, its done within 6 months. If you are late its twice as much. I thought

the only thing involved with the bringing temp to perm is the height and the paperwork. Why would

the charges be diffenent for different sexes?

I checked with AMHR and its $10 irreguardless of what sex it is. Sounds like the reasonable paper shuffel charge with them, which is all it should be.

I am just baffeled. Sounds like sexual discrimination to me. LOL Maryann

I am sorry I made a mistake. AMHR is $10 only if the certificate has expired, $5 dollars if its not expired. Even more reasonable

 

[Sue_C.]

I know what you mean... My question is why does it cost so much, when these are animals that have already HAD a registration fee paid on them once already. It's a fact, that we are being charged twice, for the same act, as I see it.

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[Jean_B]

1. There is a cost to AMHA in processing those papers. They don't simply stamp "permanent" across the front. They have to verify the accuracy, issue a new document, enter the data into their computer system, cut and paste the pictures (with the old system), issue a statement, and mail it. I don't know about you - but when I am at my job - I get paid for the time I'm working. And the equipment and systems I'm working on cost a lot of money.

2. The difference in mares versus stallions makes perfect sense to me. It is an incentive for people to seriously look at their stallions to see if they are worthy of bringing permanent. Personally I think $50 is a little on the LOW side because as is clearly evident from some of the stallions that are producing foals, $50 was not dis-incentive enough to geld the stallion rather than bring him permanent as a stud. JMO.

 

[Songcatcher]

I don't mean for this to sound snide, but it is simply the rules of the game. You cannot dictate the rules to the owner of the game. If you don't like the rules, you can play somewhere else.

Now reading that, I know it sounds harsh, and I don't mean for it to. But it is simply the facts. As far as I'm concerned, its not either or. I play by both sets of rules and pay the costs for both. :lol:

 

[Sue_C.]

I don't mean for this to sound snide, but it is simply the rules of the game. You cannot dictate the rules to the owner of the game. If you don't like the rules, you can play somewhere else.
Now reading that, I know it sounds harsh, and I don't mean for it to. But it is simply the facts. As far as I'm concerned, its not either or. I play by both sets of rules and pay the costs for both.

You're right...it sounds the way you said it...

: :bgrin

Just because something IS, or bcomes a rule, or is "the way it is done", doesn't mean that one MUST like it...RIGHT??

:

:

I can't think it takes AMHA any longer, or cost them more, than the AMHR, to get the paperwork done, or that it costs more to do a mare or stallion's papers, than a gelding.

:

As for it making a difference as to keeping people from keeping "crappy" stallions in the gene-pool, I don't think an extra 40 bucks is gonna make any difference. :bgrin

I TOO, play by both sets of rules, with both registries...one must do, what one must. and I don't care to play in another sandbox...this is the one I've chosen. :bgrin But that doesn't mean I go along meekly without an opinion on the matter.

 

[maryann]

I was just asking an open question. I was just shocked at the difference first of all in Stallion and mares

then in checking the other registry prices was shocked again at the vast price difference.

I in no way meant to start any negative responses. And yes I know to play the game you gotta play by the rules, and pay the piper. However I don't think its a bad thing to ask questions. As we all know rules can change. That is why I did not take offence to your response as I work with a bunch of surgeons. I am used to harsh responses.

: LOL Our rules change daily at the hospital as new people take over or new research comes out.

So here are some more of my thoughts.

If I am paying for research I

just assume that it takes no more to research one from the other. I agree there are paperwork

charges , That is to be expected. The problem I have with the incentive to not bring your stallion to

permant is this. If I don't think he is good enough to be brought to permanent as a stallion.I have two choices

First realize he is not good enough and pay a vet anywhere from $125-$300 in this area to have him

gelded and then another $10 to bring my new gelding to perm. ( easier to pay the $50 and leave him a not good enough stallion)

Or just forget bringing him to permanent and leave him with no papers. That would be cheaper and easier.

However I really don't think its fair to the horse to be left without papers. Way too many minis showing up in stockyard sales now with no papers and no where to go. I would definately not want to contribute to that situitation , and hopefully other AMHA members would not either.

I really don't think the paperwork arena for bringing the horse permanant is the correct arena to judge the owners ability to pay or the ability to judge . It should in my opinion be just to declair the horse is still under 34 inches at maturity. I thought that was the original reason to wait until the horse was 5 to bring him to permanant.

And again this is just my opinion, no need to throw stones, as we all have opinons and very few are the same. I am writing my check now for the $50 dollars but hopefuly someone somewhere will revisit why the charges are so extreme. Maybe times have changed since the market is down and there are so many nice stallions around with no papers. Maybe its time. Who knows. !! Mary ann

 

[sfmini]

The prices for registration are set by the membership at the annual meeting.

There was discussion on a significant raise in price for temp to perm on stallions stating just your reasoning, to make gelding more attractive and cost effective than taking a stallion perm, and the extra money would go to the gelding incentive fund.

 

[Boinky]

honestly it makes more sence to me to just not register them if they aren't good enough... to me having high prices isn't likely to draw people into gelding OR the registry.. but then again that's just me.. The price of gelding around here is so high it's not very likely to encourage anyone to geld so they can get a lower update fee..LOL someone truly had some warped sence of logic.. instead of making better incentives TO geld..just raise prices and scare people away from your registry.. LOL

course i'm also the person who would like to see more incentives being made to breed and show nice quality mini's. Yes the futurity is NICE..however.. there is only the nationals futurity every year..the classes are normally large.... the chances of winning are slim for most. Why not do like an incentive program like the AQHA and other programs where they have some money winning classes at various show's..and match the funds to those classes.. of course you'd have to enter the foals in the incentive program and keep up with the sustaining just like the futurity..but it gives more opportunities for people to get out there and show their horses and have a opportunity to win money which, lets face it..lol in mini's it's just a big toilet you put your money into flush it and watch it go down the drain..not much return from showing them except the joy of doing it.

 

[McBunz]

Get serious Ladies....this is just another money grab...and as far as I can see a jump in prices like this should have be taken to the general public.. And like Sue C. said we paid for this registration once already...

:

 

[Buckskin gal]

Well Maryann, it seems the only way the registeries think they can fix problems is to raise costs Odd how they don't necessarily want to encourage stallions being registered but won't discourage breeding ever more minis which is the only way there will be fewer stallions to deal with. Of course this is said with tongue in cheek, but I think it is the truth. Maybe they will raise the price on mares also then they may think so many mares won't be bred...oops guess that is what mini mares are meant to be used for!

:

 

[minimomNC]

My opinion is that most stallions should be geldings anyway, no question. Most people don't know a good horse from a bad horse and will breed anything just for the almighty dollar. I think taking a breeding animal permanent should be more than the cost to not let it reproduce registered offspring. And just because its cute isn't a reason to breed it. Just because we want a baby isn't a reason to breed it. The reason to breed should be that you are wanting to improve on what you already have. If you can't do that, why bring yet another animal into the world. And for the record I practice what I preach. I am breeding two of my mares for the first time in three years, both mares have proven themselves in the show ring at the National level. They are being bred to a proven show and breeding stallion. If they reproduce better than themselves, then I am one up. If not, they won't be bred again, they will be just pets. If they have colts they will be gelded, but both babies are for our own showing pleasure, not to gain a buck in the market place.

Now as for programs to pay back for geldings, please read the gelding incentive pages on the AMHA website. There is program being put in place to pay back from honor roll points to nominiated geldings. It will pay back in 6 divisions, open halter, open performance, amateur halter, amateur performance, youth halter and youth performance. The program is there, it needs support. Thats the only way it will work and contiune is for the people with geldings to get them in the program and show them. Everyone keeps saying they want something that supports geldings at more than just the national level, well here it is, now lets make it grow. Yes its starting out small this year, but the more involved people get the more that will be paid out each year.

 

[McBunz]

So in fact you are saying don't register your horses... Let all the breeding be done by the big name farms.

And if you are stupid enough to register your horses it will pay for the showing insentives of the ones who

do... What is the matter with a horse registery being just that.. A horse registery... Well the big majority of

AMHA members do not show their horses and by not registering the foals produced the gene pool will soon be just a few lines.

 

[just_4_kixx]

I agree with Maryann. Our neighbors own one of the nicest stallions I’ve ever seen. The problem with him is, the owner two owners back didn’t move him to permanent. The lady since passed on, so there’s no way to get papers on him. He was bought as a unregistered horse, and has produced incredible foals. It’s sad to think that because of the cost, he wasn’t able to show, his offspring couldn’t be shown, and he ended up being gelded . Now I’m having one of my horses gelded that I’ve already paid to move to permanent, and yet again, I’m going to get hit with a charge, and I know it in advance to have his papers changed to gelding. I know there should be some kind of charge for the paper trail and the work that’s done, but the high prices are a little uncalled for. I think both AMHA & AMHR need to take a look at other horse registries and see what they charge and make some changes. AQHA has a life time membership, for $400. I’ve called and asked AMHR a number of times if they have thought about doing something like that, each time I get the same remark, “wow, we’ve never heard of something like thatâ€. I don’t know about all of you, but I would much rather pay $400-500 once and get it over with and not be hit with the same bill every spring.

Were some what lucky where I live. To geld is only $95 a horse. That’s a good thing, because most unregistered minis that go threw our stockyard sales don’t find homes :no: . As sad as it is, people want papers, even if it’s only a gelding. I’m all for both registries trying to put more incentives for people to geld :aktion033: , like Boinky said. Again, were back to both AMHA & AMHR needing to look at other registries and their incentives with geldings. The only way things will change with either registry is for people to speak up and be heard.

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[McBunz]

Don't get me wrong... I am all for gelding 99% of the colts born..just don't like someone dictating to me what

they think I or anyone else should be doing.. I like any number of AMHA members am to darned old to be

running around the show rings..If someone wants to show a horse I sell them.. all the more power to them.

 

[just_4_kixx]

I agree. And there are a NUMBER of stallions out there that should be gelded, how ever it’s not our decision to tell someone to geld their horse. When we raised full size horses and llamas, we only kept 10% out for studs (over 15 years, only 10% were kept, not 10% a year). It had to be something that really turned our heads, and something we could use as a replacement if we lost our stud. That was the only way we kept colts intact. Honestly, I would like to see more changes like the Fresions (sp), who need to pass tests every few years, in order to be a stud. The down side to that would be that a HUGE number of the studs would be gelded, and the gene pool would be very thin.

 

[Sue_C.]

AQHA has a life time membership, for $400. I’ve called and asked AMHR a number of times if they have thought about doing something like that, each time I get the same remark, “wow, we’ve never heard of something like thatâ€. I don’t know about all of you, but I would much rather pay $400-500 once and get it over with and not be hit with the same bill every spring.

Well, they certainly HAVE.

: The AMHA, did this up till just a few years ago. Thank Heaven's I was smart enough to buy into it at the time, so am now a Life Member. :aktion033: I imagine they quit the program as it doesn't bring in NEAR the money the current membership costs do. Should the AMHR do this, I will be in line right behind you, just_4_kixx.

: :saludando:

 

[just_4_kixx]

I would be willing to pay more then $500 even, if I could just get it over with. Although, I think $500 is a great price. We pay way more with AMHR papers then AQHA, and all the small fee's, I think they would do just fine. For those of us who know they are going to be breeding for more then 3 or 4 years, it would be nice to just pay it and get it over with. For those who only have a few horses and aren't sure if they are going to stay in mini's paying every spring works out great for them. I really think that the registry wouldn't loose much money in the long run.

 

[Reble]

I believe the norm is one or maybe two stallions for most of us for breeding.

How many mares do we have compared to stallions?

There is your answer

Forgot to mention AMHR prices are coming, life is full of changes...

 

[Boinky]

McBunz..that is not at all what i'm saying..i'm being totally sarcastic and facisious for the most point... I DO think it's rediculous to think people will geld verses breed by raising the prices. I think like others said it's a bit of a money grab.... I can say though in some instances it MAY be better and cheaper for an individual to NOT bring them permanent if the fee's get too high (and i'm sure many many don't because of the big fee then i hear people whining because they found an outstanding horse with no papers.. boohoo!). THAT is why horses lose papers..I bet that is 99% of the reason..NOT because people are 'too lazy" to send them in. sure there are the lazy people out there too.. but $50 is a little on the steep side to just pull out of your butt all the time. I'd rather have more smaller fee's that i could pay here and there when i had the money than BIG fee's where i have to screw around till I have the money to send it in. ./.. not to mention you basically are paying to register that animal twice.

As for it being a ploy to get people to geld..i just don't buy into that! it's crap.. Like i said..around here it costs $300 + to geld a horse... GIVE ME A BREAK... is higher registry fee's going to push me to pay the extra money to geld that horse then pay the extra fee's ontop ?? NO!! makes me more likely to sell more colts with testicles.

MAN just 4 kixx... seriously if gelding was that cheap here.. i wouldn't hestitate to geld geld geld.. I don't breed more than 2 mares a year anyhow but if i did that is a LOT easier to swallow than $300 + per colt.. lets face it..the way the market is right now geldings are hard to make much off anyhow unless you have a really outstanding one with a nice long show record (then i wonder if people really get big bucks for them). by the time you put $300-$400 into gelding..then the cost of raising them ect you probably dont' make anything by the time you sell them for $1K or so...

Better incentives would make me more likely to geld in all seriousness. I'm glad to hear they are working on incentive programs it's a very good start!

 

[just_4_kixx]

Man, I can't believe the differences in prices in gelding. :new_shocked: That's outrageous! I'm with you, at that price, I wouldn't want to geld them either. It's hard enough to get any money of out of them, let a loan adding the gelding price to it. What floored me even more was pricing having a mare spaded. I called my vet for a friend who has a mare that’s had problems birthing, and wanted to have her spayed, so she wouldn’t have problems any more, and if she sold the mare, she wouldn’t pass on problems. $900 to have her spayed. My mouth hit the ground! Gelding here is $95 and for full size it’s $125, to spay mini or full size it’s $900.