AMHR/ASPC Cross Enter at SAME SHOW Proposal

[JMS Miniatures]

Perhaps their aren't more ASPC classes available is because the ponies don't come out to show because they don't have to qualify? If qualification for Congress comes into play ask the shows to put on classes for the ponies.

 

[LaVern]

I had better put a halt to this, before I get crazier. Lewella you have nothing to fear from me. I couldn't direct traffic on a Sunday afternoon in Petersburg. I have a passion for the Miniature Horse and love a good yarn, thats all.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

There are many clubs in my area that do not or will not offer shetland classes (and some are adament that they do not want shetlands). Last year alone two shows were cancelled and another show did not offer my division.

 

[Lewella]

JMS - I doubt more than a handful of yearling and older ponies shown at Congress did not attend at least one ASPC show this year prior to Congress. Population wise there aren't the Shetlands population numbers that there are miniature population numbers. 1094 Shetlands registered last year. 5663 AMHR Miniatures registered last year. Close to 50% of the total number of new registerations in 2011 showed at the 2012 Congress. About 27% of the total number of new registrations in AMHR in 2011 showed at the 2012 Nationals. Those are amazing numbers - I doubt many breeds can boast that type of show support. It isn't like the Shetlands aren't out there supporting the shows, they just have a much smaller population to draw from.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

***As for qualifying for Congress - I can't support it unless more ASPC shows are available across the country. There are results recorded for 60 ASPC shows in 2012 vs. results recorded for 113 AMHR shows in 2012. If all those AMHR shows voluntarily added ASPC classes sure, I could support qualifying for Congress, but we can't force shows to add ASPC classes.***

I had the pleasure of delivering a mini to Prince Edward Island, Canada a couple of years ago. This kind lady had gone to Nationals and discussed what she did to qualify. Unfortunately, PEI did not have enough minis to support a show big enough to qualify, so she had to drive to the States. That's an over 8 hour trip every time to qualify for Nationals which is 36 hours and 2200 miles drive.

If that lady can do it without complaint, then I think most Shetland people can get it done. Maybe not exactly the same as minis, but some reasonable qualifying rules seem reasonable.

Dr. Taylor

 

[LaVern]

I love going to shows that offer classes for the Shetlands. I like to watch and enjoy visiting with their owners. But I sure would not like it if they could show in both the Shetland Classes and the Mini Classes at the same show. I would stay away and not support those shows for sure. And how would you handle them not being seen by the judges ahead of time?

Doc did you mean that were 60 Shows that were just for Shetlands or 60 AMHR/ASPC joined shows?

The lady from PI is coming back this year, she says. She is very nice and loves her minis and can handle a 6 up draft. She said she was going to do chariot with her wolf hound along side, but I don't know if that will be allowed.

 

[disneyhorse]

We don't have any shetland shows... There wasn't even an area show over here. So how the heck would someone like me qualify my pony? My pony is sitting here, and although I'd like to offer money for the Registry, there is nothing here.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

When there is a will there is always a way. Yell and scream if you have to. Sponsor the classes yourself. Start a show in your area for ASPC ponies. SMLEC shows which are centrally located offers a lot of the shetland classes and more then several classes have competition especially the Area 4 show this past year. But plenty of those classes are empty but yet they are still available. I know MHPBO offers a variety of shetland classes as well. Also other shows centrally located offers the shetland classes.

 

[Lewella]

Renee those 60 shows were ASPC/AMHR. To the best of my knowledge there are no Shetland only shows currently anywhere in the country. Also, many of these 60 shows don't offer the Modern or Modern Pleasure divisions - they offer only Classic or Classic and Foundation.

JMS here in the middle of the country we can get Shetland classes added, usually not an issue, we have the Shetland attendance to support adding them. That isn't the case in much of the country. I know of several shows where people have volunteered time, sponsored classes, bent over backwards in an attempt to get Shetland classes added to no avail. Some clubs simply will not add them under any circumstances.

As Andrea mentioned Area 7 did not even have an Area National Show this year, not a single club applied to host. There were only one or two shows in all of Area 7 with Shetland classes and I don't believe any with Modern or Modern Pleasure classes. Area 1 is seriously lacking in Shetland shows as well.

 

[LaVern]

My Gosh. I didn't know that about ASPC shows. That's terrible. I am going to have to study on this one.

The first thing that comes to mind though -is-

If the Shetland need AMHR to help put on a show for them and the AMHA (in our area anyway) need to join up with AMHR to put a show on, why is the AMHR horse only worth 100 bucks.

And why would some try to push for more from AMHR and make some of us mad.

 

[Minimor]

Renee--I don't think you understand. It is not the Shetlabd people who are asking for this rule change. As I understand it, it is the AMHR exhibitors who are asking for this change so that they can also show their horses in the Shetland classes. (you might be surprised to learn who some of the people are who are pushing for this!!!)

It is not the Shetland owners asking so that they can also show AMHR!

 

[LaVern]

I do understand where it is coming from. My best buddy (the rascal) was the one who brought this whole thing up. Both the dropping of the fees and the cross entering. Of course it is the double people who want this.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Again I have still not heard a good enough reason for this rule to pass. Of course this ruling is made by people who own double registered shetlands. It helps them even further in their breeding programs while its another stab to the side of the only AMHR breeder. Of course quality AMHR only miniatures will still sell but it will be harder and won't bring in as much money as it once was because again whats the incentive to own a Miniature that is only AMHR registered?

As far as having the 50% off sale for hardshipping it's been discussed here before and I was not against it. Membership numbers were dropping, registrations were dropping, so AMHR/ASPC offered several incentives to become a member of the club. We can't keep selling to ourselves anymore, we need new members and doing this hardship sell was to try and get new members, more so from AMHA. It has been reported that the sale was successful. Now with that being said I won't agree to continue it for next year. I would also consider doubling the hardship fees considering after next year AMHR will be the only miniature horse registry to still have limited hardshipping.

 

[disneyhorse]

People want options when breeding and showing and buying and selling.

When I first got into minis in 1999, the market was all about the AMHA/AMHR horse. Well, I liked them a little bigger than that for driving, and got an AMHR only horse. Back then, there were maybe one or two other b size horses in the classes. AMHR b size only was not profitable or popular. It was kind of "just for those who went over." It was hard to find ASPC/AMHR horses, but they've always been there because those Establo horses were always placing well in halter at Nationals.

Well, now there IS a big market for the "over" minis BECAUSE of the popularity of the ASPC/AMHR horses. There is actually horses filling the over classes. It's just now if the AMHA horse goes over it can show AMHR. And if the AMHR horse goes over it can show ASPC. People like this option of being double registered, whether AMHA or ASPC. This is why AMHR only or ASPC only horses are at a market disadvantage somewhat. It's hard finding shows that an ASPC only horse can show at, and that's why there is a bigger population of ASPC/AMHR showing.

But there are some of us who prefer ASPC only horses, just as there are those of us who prefer AMHR only horses. But that shouldn't make us want to restrict those looking to stick with what's driving the market right now, as those horses are still all registered with our small equine registry of choice.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

See, I don't see any reason why they can't show both. It's not going to affect the AMHR classes at all- most people are already showing their AMHR/ASPC horses as minis! It may, however, add more entrants to the Shetland classes!

I have one AMHR/ASPC horse, my friend has three. Guess which classes we enter now with them? It's not the Shetland division! If I had the opportunity to show both at one show, would I do it? Probably at least once! Just to try it out.

I own five horses. One is AMHA/AMHR. One is AMHR/ASPC. One is AMHA/AMHR but so borderline I don't show her A. And two are "straight" AMHR.

 

[LaVern]

I have a plan. What we need is more shows for the ASPC.

Here is how I have it figured.

If there was only 1000 or so Ponies registered last year that is only 20,000.

If we jacked the price up for AMHA (fairly) as to what they have charged us. We would only have to hardship 20 of them to come up with 24,000. What if we got 100 AMHA horses? That would be 120,000.

Okay, we take that money and give it to some Shetland Shows that offer all the classes they need. Not the area shows, maybe as so many don't like to go because of just one judge. But, give every area a big fancy ASPC show and then they should be happy. The could each get 20,000. Then they wouldn't need to cross enter.

 

[horsefeather]

I dont think anyone has yet to think about the time line. If we had the shetlands cross-entering, do you know how long a show would last? Instead of 10-15 in a class, there could be 20-25 in that class, therefore the class would last longer. As it is, the miniatures have had to forfeit lots of classes just so the shetlands could have their classes. The more shetland classes added, the more mini classes are dropped because of time restraints. And, several shows now have had to add at least 1/2 day so they could fit in foundations, classic, modern, and on and on. People have tried to have shetland only shows, most had to cancel because of low support.

dreamlnmini, I loved your first post. What I have been trying to say for a long time! And Lavern, I LOVE you!! I am so glad there are folks like you still out there.

flying minis, also well said.

And, for those of you who think some of us 'overshow' our horses' if you would get your horses in shape, you wouldn't have that problem. I have heard MANY people say they won't work their horses if it's too hotl. I always wondered what happens to those horses when they go to Nationals, or any other show that is 100 plus. If they aren't used to it, I'd say they weren't in shape.

We certainly have been 'outpriced' in halter, but that;s ok with me. I got the journal just the other day and if I thought the shetlands/miniatures were eventually going to look like some in it, I'd just quit showing. I don't want to support an organization that is breeding for those horrible looking horses/ponies. It's already well known that hackney has 'creeped' into the shetlands/minis.. I just wish those that liked shetlands, hackneys, etc. would do their own shows and leave AMHR alone! It used to be fun showing, can't say that anymore.

As for the measuring that was mentioned, unfortunately, you can't measure as the rulebook states. Which is one of the reasons I won't pay to get my Stewards card for 2013. I got my card so people who were mad because their horse wasn't being measured per the rulebook would know I stuck to the book. Unfortunately, some of those same folks didn't like my measuring either. Sorry folks, i wouldn't make a 35" fit into a 34 and under class. I also found out that the rulebook wasn't for everyone. I am probably wrong, but to me when a rule is written, it is a rule. No exceptions, no excuses, period.

I'm sorry, didn't mean to hijack this topic, just got up there on my soapbox and was on a roll.

P.S. Actually, I like shetlands and really do own several.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I really don't see why we should have to fund raise for the Shetlands LaVern

It seems to me that people who love and own Miniature Horses fundraise for themselves to put on shows to promote their horses, increase their popularity and give people interested in their breed somewhere to show and enjoy their horses. If people who own Shetlands did the same - held shows for their favourite breed to promote and increase interest in them - perhaps there would be more interest in them. Seems to me that with nowhere to exhibit and enjoy a Shetland, or at least apparently few and far between, there has been a loss of interest. Why should they expect to ride on the coattails of the Miniature Shows? Why should money raised from the Miniature aspect of the registry be used to promote the ponies when the people who own and enjoy them don't seem to want to arrange shows for themselves? They can't even be bothered to require any kind of qualification for their national show to encourage people in all areas to arrange shows for other Shetland owners so that they could qualify closer to home and at less expense. It only makes sense that if they don't want to go to the expense of having to attend a couple of shows to qualify there is going to be less interest in their breed because no one off their farms ever get to see them and what do you do with them if there is no where to compete with them? Minis not only have their own sanctioned breed shows but have gone into other venues to show such as carriage driving and 4H, and are also widely used as therapy and visitation animals. How many Shetlands are doing that? Few and far between. I think people are more comfortable with Minis because you don't necessarily have to resort to cruel practices to make them competitive in driving (although the introduction of the Shetlands back into the breed is sadly changing that) and their temperaments make them so much more user friendly. I have no problem with any horse that truly measures 38" and under, as our breed standard requires, competing in sanctioned Mini shows. I do have resentment towards Shetland breeders who promote their Shetlands as Miniatures when they are in fact oversize, taking advantage of new owners who thinking they have purchased a Mini or a young horse who will grow and mature to Mini size only to find out the horse they have is not a Mini at all causing them to resent and lose interest in our breed. I personally spoke to a long time Shetland breeder about a lovely colt they had advertised as being double registered and for sale. When I in quired about a height guarantee

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Horsefeathers, I am disgusted in you for considering to be horrible ponies/horses in the journal.

You are insulting my pony for being pictured in this Journal. She was not last years's GC halter, this year undefeated driving, maternal sister to GC Classic mare, but one the 3 top ponies that the judges, judging clinic panel and trainers were in awe over.

So think before you speak.

And there is no denying many moderns have hackney breeding or classics have welsh breeding. These are American shetlands, not British shetlands.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Sorry - finishing my post here because I couldn't finish it on the above one..

The breeder told me that the horse was worth every bit as much as only a Shetland as it was as a Mini Shetland and they would not guarantee it's height. I was looking at it for breeding stock, thought I had made that clear to him, and I breed Minis so to me it was worth nothing as only a Shetland and I was not interested. If as he said it was worth every bit as much why had he gone to the trouble of double registering the horses that bred the colt?