AMHR/ASPC Cross Enter at SAME SHOW Proposal

[Crabtree Farm]

Correction to previous post. It should have said "she WAS last year's GC halter".

 

[Minimor]

Horsefeather--it sounds like you must have a good turnout of Shetlands at your shows? A good turnout of small Shetlands who currently show as shetlands...if by allowing the double registered ones to show in both divisions it is going to swell AMHR numbers by 10+ horses per class.(or are you meaning that this will allow AMHR to show Shetland and therefore your Shetland classes will have 20 entries now?

It is unfortunate if some shows must leave out AMHR classes in order to add Shetlabd classes. That hasn't been the case here---we have kept all the same Amhr classes and still added ASPC classes. We don't have such a large AMHR turnout so show management is happy to have the ponies there to increase numbers. The other day someone on the show committee expressed delight that this new rule would make our pony classed bigger. I know some of the ponies currently showing R would not bother cross entering; there is another exhibitor who would cross enter I am sure.

I suspect that the horrible looking ponies you refer to are some of the moderns (I haven't got my Journal yet)--and you probably don't need to worry about those getting into R. Mostly they are too big. They really aren't my cup of tea at all, but then I do have to add that there are also some drop dead awful looking minis out there showing and even winning...and they are a few generations removed from "pony" now ...so really there are good ones and bad ones all across the board in ASPC and AMHR.

AGain I remind you that this proposal isn't a Shetland thing--those pushing for it are the people currently showing AMHR with their double registered ponies...if it doesn't pass I imagine they will continue showing AMHR. I'm not sure why people are so opposed--personally I don't care either way, I see good and bad in either. Now--if the proposal was to add a rule stating that in order to get an Amhr show sanctioned that show must include the Shetland divisions--then I could see why some of you would be upset.

As for as over showing a horse--it is nothing to do with whether or not my own horse can do 20 classes in a day--the point is I have seen horses that are overshown--horses who are overshown show after show. Horses who are fit--but still are worn out before the end of the show day. They are a very sad sight.

 

[LaVern]

I made a big mistake. It is only 600 to hardship a mare into AMHA. It is 1200 for a stallion. Sorry. And I think that Holly is right. It seems that some of the people that are would want this cross over are sort of AMHA trainers and owners that really haven't spent years and years with AMHR.

Heres a thought. You get a lower rate if you have been a good standing member of the Club for along time.

I get so darn mad at that Dish TV. They are aways sending me good deals if I join up. I tell them that I have had Dish for many years and they say, "sorry no good deals for you."

 

[LaVern]

Haven't had enough coffee yet. But, another thought. If those guys from Done Under can afford to pay 12,000 a horse to ship them down. They can afford more to hardship them in.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Off topic, but at what point will hardshipping slow down. AMHR/ASPC stallions bred to AMHR/ASPC mares will produce foals that can be registered AMHR/ASPC at birth.

 

[Ashley]

I personally dont see an issue with cross entering. Over the years I have had mostly minis with an occasonal pony. I never showed the pony. Someday when and if I get back into showing it will be a double registured. I like the look of the pony, but dont feel there is much market for the "straight" pony.

Today I just have a couple pet minis but honestly I think the AMHR fees are crazy. I have a foal here that I probably wont reg as she is just a pet for my daughter. The filly wasnt a planned foal so the stud report and all that needs to be done. I dont have a problem paying that but I have no desire to be a member at this point and its a waist of money. The only way to do the paper work is to be a member. So in order to reg her it would be 110 plus then the transfer to get her in my daughters name. For a pet, that I have no plans to ever breed or show...........no thanks. I think it needs to go back to a slight higher fee for non members and regular hardship fees.

 

[LaVern]

I don't think it wil slow down for along time. Maybe when all the Shetlands are all short, and even then some may get tall, but once they are in they are in, Their offspring will maybe stay short enough to show or we will get even easier on height or make a new catagory for them like the do in some countries.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

We can't keep making categories for these animals to show in, just to guarantee someone gets a blue ribbon.

Now we are getting off topic again.

How many animals this affect? 1 - 10 - 100? As somone pointed out, only about 60 shows offers shetland classes.

So at the shows you attended this year, how many dual ponies showed at each show?

Now remember that many animals only have 1 AMHR/ASPC parent, thus not a dual registered pony.

 

[Leeana]

Well as one of the few who raise "straight" (Yes LaVern, I am borrowing your term) ASPC shetland ponies that are generally over 38", I have to ask myself too how would this affect myself and others like me that raised just ASPC ponies and show just ASPC when I attend shows. I could see it going either way, it is just one of those things that you just do not know until it happens. If some of these mini people get a taste for the shetland show ring, maybe that would up the market (which in all honestly is not all that bad...) for these classic/foundation ponies (I am going to guess that is where most the minis would fall in those two categories. Could it harm "me" as a breeding of just ASPC reg ponies, well it could too...as if a miniature horse person was to want to show shetland, they just need an amhr/aspc pony vrs going and buying an ASPC classic or foundation not AMHR pony. But, such is the case right now too...so I don't believe that would change a lot. I geuss I would just have to further sit down and ask myself where I would fall. I usually try not to worry about anything unless it effects me directly (as I have enough to worry about LOL) but this one may actually affect me.

There is a market for anything if you market it correctly! As I have found very true this year. When i sold our miniature horse program (AMHR, AMHA/AMHR horses) about four years ago to pursue my dream of raising ASPC over 38" Classic and Foundation ponies I heard so many people tell me that I would never be able to sell them, there was no market, no money in them. Like I said, it is all in the marketing and promotion of what you are doing - and we did not do half bad this year with our first generation of ASPC only foals, 3 sold oversea's and 1 sold in the US to a wonderful show/breeding home for more than what I see most people are getting for their amhr/aspc ponies. Then agian....marketing, good ponies and more marketing. Plus maybe a little faith.

In all honesty.....I would be very surprised if this passed, so lets not start pricing off our breeding programs people.

I was brought up with some old value's, such as....if it ain't broke - don't fix it. What we have right now seems to be working. Although I realize that is not exactly how things progress or grow...

 

[LaVern]

I was brought up with some old value's, such as....if it ain't broke - don't fix it. What we have right now seems to be working.

Love that Leeana.

Sometime some of us, (not me of course) get so carried away with out brilliant ideas, and now with the internet, spash them all over the place. And while it might sound like a great idea for the moment that is all it is, just a quick thought, that you thought was brilliant, but it really dumb after you thought it through. I hope the members at the Convention really give this some thought. I am sure they will. The hardship thing was pasted too fast last year, I thought.

This proposal was handled wisely, and tabled to Convention, giving us all time to shoot our mouths off. Thanks to Board.

And added-- And Thanks to Lil Beginnings for giving me the chance to voice my opinion.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I really don't see why we should have to fund raise for the Shetlands LaVern

It seems to me that people who love and own Miniature Horses fundraise for themselves to put on shows to promote their horses, increase their popularity and give people interested in their breed somewhere to show and enjoy their horses. If people who own Shetlands did the same - held shows for their favourite breed to promote and increase interest in them - perhaps there would be more interest in them. Seems to me that with nowhere to exhibit and enjoy a Shetland, or at least apparently few and far between, there has been a loss of interest. Why should they expect to ride on the coattails of the Miniature Shows? Why should money raised from the Miniature aspect of the registry be used to promote the ponies when the people who own and enjoy them don't seem to want to arrange shows for themselves? They can't even be bothered to require any kind of qualification for their national show to encourage people in all areas to arrange shows for other Shetland owners so that they could qualify closer to home and at less expense. It only makes sense that if they don't want to go to the expense of having to attend a couple of shows to qualify there is going to be less interest in their breed because no one off their farms ever get to see them and what do you do with them if there is no where to compete with them? Minis not only have their own sanctioned breed shows but have gone into other venues to show such as carriage driving and 4H, and are also widely used as therapy and visitation animals. How many Shetlands are doing that? Few and far between. I think people are more comfortable with Minis because you don't necessarily have to resort to cruel practices to make them competitive in driving (although the introduction of the Shetlands back into the breed is sadly changing that) and their temperaments make them so much more user friendly. I have no problem with any horse that truly measures 38" and under, as our breed standard requires, competing in sanctioned Mini shows. I do have resentment towards Shetland breeders who promote their Shetlands as Miniatures when they are in fact oversize, taking advantage of new owners who thinking they have purchased a Mini or a young horse who will grow and mature to Mini size only to find out the horse they have is not a Mini at all causing them to resent and lose interest in our breed. I personally spoke to a long time Shetland breeder about a lovely colt they had advertised as being double registered and for sale. When I in quired about a height guarantee

Well said

I so agree AMHR should not have to "fundraiser" to have to support ASPC shows so ASPC have a place to show. We already have to help financially when it comes to the Congress show cause I can't imagine the ASPC doesn't have $30,000 in their budget. The registry itself does not support the local shows the clubs do, and in order for the shows to survive we must support our local clubs. Shows are already struggling as it is. How much will this cost the shows to put on the extra classes if no one comes to support them? I'm only using the SMLEC shows as an example because that is the club I show with and our shows have all sorts of shetland classes but many of them our empty with occasionally a few shetlands in them. Our shows have almost 100 to over 100 miniatures and the many of the miniature classes are full, especially the performance classes. SMLEC offers a variety of classes for the youth and amateur exhibitor. The shows can run late in the night. A couple of times I didn't get to bed til after midnight. I can also see the show extend to another day and will the show be profitable even tho they have extra "ponies" showing even tho they have to pay the judges an extra day to judge? What classes can they cut considering there is competition in many of the miniature classes including the draft classes and I'm sure many would be disgusted if we have to make room for classes for the double registered shetlands when those who don't show shetlands especially if classes start to get cutted or have to have an extra day and many won't be able to get off an extra day of work.

I have thought about the ASPC ponies themselves that are not AMHR and wondered how those people felt about all the AMHR/ASPC ponies and them showing at Congress but it got me to thinking I don't see how it could hurt. The ASPC breed itself isn't as popular as the miniatures themselves. The double registered ponies can only help gain interest in the ASPC breed and can help and support the breed. Also the different ponies of the ASPC have standards, I don't see how the double registered ponies change the standard of the foundation or a classic or especially a modern. Altho I don't believe many of the foundation sealed double registered shetlands are the true foundation type and still show in the foundation classes because of the height. However they need to offer height division classes for these double registered shetlands which I know have already started in the classics.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I actually wish someone who currently runs and manage AMHR/ASPC shows would come on here and voice their opinions about how this ruling would affect the shows. We need to support the shows, if this will help tremendously for local clubs then perhaps it should pass. I still think that it could affect AMHR long term tho as a business stand point to many AMHR only breeders.

 

[Minimor]

To answer Jamie's last post first--I do organize an ASPC/AMHR show and I do believe this rule change would help our bottom line some. I have already said that one of the people who organize our province's other ASPC AMHR show has expressed delight that this change would bring more revenue to our show. Some of the exhibitors won't show both ways, some will. So far we have no one showing a double registered horse as a pony, all are shown as minis.

 

[Minimor]

Actually, they don't need to offer height classes for the smaller ponies--unlike minis ponies are judged on movement and so a small pony with good movement has every chance of winning--there have been a number of congress champions that were AMHR registered. They did add the smaller size class for senior ponies, as a way of attracting those exhibitors who believe you need more height divisions...but I doubt they will be adding more classes for smaller ponies.

Leeana--I think that it wasn't broke when they "fixed" it and put the prohibition in the 1990's either.  The catalyst for the rule was a little gray mare from Ohio who was actively showing as a Classic and a Miniature at the same shows and winning as both!  People apparently thought ponies would just show as ponies if they couldn't also show as miniatures at the same show.  Only that isn't what happened was it?  The ponies kept right on showing AMHR and no longer showed ASPC.  

As far as Shetland shows and establishing Shetland only shows the population concentration in the US of Shetlands isn't such that more than a handful of states have a large enough pony population within a day's drive for a stand alone Shetland show to even be possible.  Another thing, AMHR requires many more classes than any of the Shetland divisions. 

Required Classes to Host an AMHR Show:

- A Rated: 86 Classses

- Performance Only: 12 Classes

Required Classes to Host a Classic Show:

- A Rated: 39 Classes

- B Rated: 28 Classes

- C Rated: 14 Classes

(Foundation does not have a stand alone rating - Foundation classes are optional Classes for a Classic show)

Required Classes to Host a Modern Pleasure Show:

- A Rated: 32 Classes

Required Classes to Host a Modern Show:

- AAA Rated: 45 Classes

- AA Rated: 40 Classes

- A Rated: 27 Classes

- OA Rated: 17 Classes plus $250 in prize money

- B Rated: 21 Classes

- C Rated: 4 Classes

 

[LaVern]

Maybe, the first year or so, but what down the line if the Straight Miniatures owners stopped coming and supporting such shows? Just a maybe.

 

[Minimor]

Why would they? Nothing will change for them--not at the shows here, not at most of the shows anywhere. If AMHR exhibitors choose to boycott 60 shows (I think that was the number?) some year they aren't going to have many left to pick from. Some people would then have to drive a very long way to show.

Boycotts generally don't work well--people stay home and then discover that others went and do the show went on just fine without those who boycotted it.

It is kind of like someone saying they will boycott the registry by not registered their foals. Pretty soon they are back to doing their registrations.

 

[LaVern]

I think the numbers tell us that alot of us are not registering foals. I can't speak for anyone else, but I guess I would tell my trainers. No shows where both were offerred. Maybe I would not have any shows to go to, but what the heck that would save me some money and as a breeder the registry tells me that, even the ones I register are only worth a 100 a piece.

 

[ohmt]

What a great thread with lots of great points and for the most part I think the most civility I have seen on a thread this size

Personally, I kind of like the idea, though I really understand where those who don't are coming from. The horses with both papers are already showing AMHR. People want the shetlands to start pulling their own weight and I think this might be a good start to get more show participation. It seems the majority of those double reg horses are showing AMHR no matter what. I have a feeling those that are only showing shetland (which I bet are few) will keep doing so even with the change. Is there a way to do a type of trial period to see if it will affect AMHR?

Lavern-I agree with you on some of your points. I wish AMHR would really increase the cost of registering foals and their hardshipping prices should be the same as AMHA's.

 

[Minimor]

That is really too bad you feel that way, that your horses are worth so little. Are you selling quite a few for that $100 price then, if that is all they are worth?

My AMHR horses are worth much more than that. Shoot, even my single registered ASPC ponies, which so many on this thread are saying are worth nothing, are worth a lot more than $100. a horse is surely valued by more than the cost of its registration papers!!!

 

[LaVern]

Oh, that was good one Minimor, Lets see now, I need a comeback. hummmmm okay here goes.

I feel that my horses are worth a fortune, but the registry thinks they are only worth 100. No, I have not sold many at 100.00, I have given lots of them away though.