AMHR/ASPC Cross Enter at SAME SHOW Proposal

[disneyhorse]

I'm with Crabtree farm, I like the points she brings up.

Now, how about this: is a show that offers both AMHA and AMHR classes the worst thing ever? Should that practice be stopped?

 

[Crabtree Farm]

If I remember correctly, dual ponies were able to show both and did for many years, it wasn't until (I believe the Nichols) were winning successfully in both divisions at a show that someone who was upset that they were winning called foul. Because they were tired of being beat, they tried to get rid of the competition.

So are you telling me that you rather show in a class where you get rid of the competiton? I doubt that because people make the decision to show AMHR.

Why not write the proposal to say, any AMHR registered pony that shows AMHR classes at a show be eligible to show shetland classes if they have shetland papers. Because you call them Dual Registered, they are first and formost a miniature by record due to size. It is a height registry.

But again how many ponies or rather "horses" will this allow? Does anyone have an answer?

And in this ecomony, horses/ponies are a luxury! Definitely a necessity if you base your livelyhood on it.

In AMHR is very much like ASPC, the "taller" ponies show/win better. Some people will not want to show their 38 and under shetlands against 42 inch ponies. They feel just like the 34-36 ponies lumped against the 38 inch ponies in some classes.

Again how many ponies will this affect? 1 - 10 - 100?

 

[Yaddax3]

Some folks will want to show both AMHR and ASPC at the same show. Some won't.

It's nice to have that option. And it will mean more money for shows struggling to break even.

Just because it's offered doesn't mean you have to do it.

It also might mean your ASPC horse will face competition instead going into the class alone -- like it is in many Shetland classes I've watched at local shows.

As for Renee's (LaVern) concern, she has a wonderful breeding program with championship-caliber horses and there always will be a market for that.

 

[dreaminmini]

Well, in a conversation the other day, this came up..have we looked at the breed standard of perfection?? It is the standard for any well conformed HORSE and most of the double registered PONIES do not look like horses to me. They are very pretty but do they match a HORSE'S conformation?? As we all know there are very distinct differences between horses and ponies other than the obvious height as well as some shared ones. But in terms of judging....???

1.6 Standard of Perfection

A. General Impression: A small, sound, well-balanced

horse which gives the impression of strength, agility

and alertness.

A suggestion is to have AMHR-only shows. It has to show on your papers no ASPC registered ponies back so many generations or allow owners to have a special designation on their papers proving AMHR only lineage back so far.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

You can't follow the rules about no shetland so many generations back. So many shetland papers were thrown away and still strong shetland blood is there in today's miniatures.

 

[Karen S]

Thank you Renee for your explanation.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

And who is to say the sire and dam are actually those listed. No dna to prove so. Until dna goes into effect, and you get that 4 generation proof, that can't happen.

I do have dna on all my animals to know who they are and who they came from.

 

[disneyhorse]

Not all who have dual registered horses/ponies will want to show in both. It would be expensive to campaign a horse or multiple horses in both for exhibitors. But the option should be there.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You want shetlands to actually come and show and fill up the shetland classes? Then make it to where the shetlands have to qualify for Congress too. Why should the miniatures qualify for Nationals and not the shetlands for their championship show? The miniatures are the money earner for the club, the miniatures support the shows, help support Congress that looses money every year in which AMHR can't show at, Why should we give a free ride for these dual shetlands? Make them show, if they want to show as a shetland they can, just not as a miniature. But for some reason they don't want to show as a shetland and show as a miniature instead, now why is that? Perhaps they can compete as a miniature because that is whats winning is the shetland influence and they can't compete against their bigger counter part.

I agree that I feel that the AMHR miniature keeps getting pushed out. Not only is it hard enough to compete at shows but allowing to cross enter some may say oh I can do double the classes and that includes double the points for All-Star and Hall of Fame. You loose interest in the AMHR miniature because what is the incentive. Yes we choose the AMHR miniature because that is what we prefer but is it worth continue too breed for the AMHR miniature? This is why I feel that adding a aged class won't do us any good and what we need is a type class.

I love to show, I show my geldings in pretty much everything performance, (obstacle, hunter, driving) and by the end of the day my horses are a trooper and we get it done but boy after that last class it's like a sigh of relief. I don't think I could be able to show them in all of those classes as a Shetland you would burn them out much faster and you won't see them in the show ring for very long. If mine were double I may possibly focus on a specific area say halter or driving but I'll save the rest for Congress.

 

[mdegner]

Regarding DNA, good for you Crabtree!! We also have DNA on everything we own (everything is double-registered AMHR/AMHA) and I so wish AMHR/ASPC would begin a DNA program. But I digress from the main point of this thread......

 

[disneyhorse]

Well, in a conversation the other day, this came up..have we looked at the breed standard of perfection?? It is the standard for any well conformed HORSE and most of the double registered PONIES do not look like horses to me. They are very pretty but do they match a HORSE'S conformation?? As we all know there are very distinct differences between horses and ponies other than the obvious height as well as some shared ones. But in terms of judging....???

1.6 Standard of Perfection

A. General Impression: A small, sound, well-balanced

horse which gives the impression of strength, agility

and alertness.

Technically, all ponies are horses, but not all horses are ponies due to height. It's a Venn diagram where the pony circle falls inside the horse circle.

The American shetland is distinct in that it has been bred for a refined, more horselike appearance. The pony ish short dished head, short legs, round barrel, thick short neck are not necessarily the ideal. The horselike appearance and movement is what is drawing the popularity into the AMHR show ring.

When I tell non-horse people (and even most horse people) that I own a Shetland pony, I know most people picture a little Thellwell type pony in their minds, and not what is pictured in my avatar.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

This issue certainly has 2 sides and both have reasonable arguments.

Considering all of the arguments, I do not believe 'over showing' an animal is a reasonable argument. Many have used the phrase 'shown to death', I challenge anyone to demonstrate an occurrence of 'death by over-showing'. Now, I understand most people are using that phrase as an over exaggeration to make their point, but exaggerations tend to reduce the validity of an argument, not support it.

The obvious extension to the argument is the 'well maybe not to death, but some ponies are shown too much'. I would like someone to define 'too much' as to the detrimental effect on the animal. Again, I would challenge anyone to demonstrate an occurrence of 'injury due to over-showing'.

The last extension to the argument would be 'well showing in "x" number of classes per day is too much'. Any of us would defend an animal who was being beaten because it is too exhausted to continue. But, short of that, just because a pony gets tired after a number of classes doesn't mean it is being treated inhumanely.

The primary reason this is a concern to me is people who show one pony in many classes is far more likely to be an amateur who is showing for the fun of it. Now they read that others at the show think they are being inhumane? How likely do you think that amateur is to want to go to a show at all, when they know people are talking this way about them?

My secondary concern is people, like me, who bring a young pony and only pay once to show it in its open class are not the exhibitors that end up paying for the majority of a show. The people that pay the way for all of us 'one and doners' is the exhibitor that brings a pony that they show in many classes. I appreciate that they do and I hope they have fun.

Dr. Taylor

 

[LaVern]

Thankyou Yaddax3, but I don't think that you are right. Unless I go elswhere or create a new outlet for my horses, I won't survive if we keep making AMHR more Shetland Pony friendly. My horses will never look or perform like the Modern Shetlands (I don't want them to.) and that is the direction that AMHR is going.

A few of us are trying to come up with ideas to promote different typs of shows more locally for both AMHR and AMHA Mature (no babies or young stock) Miniature Horses. Our state has so much money and they like to promote that they are giving back to Agriculture. Some thing like a Dakota Miniature Horse Association. Extremly tight measurements, health, but no coggins needed. Big prizes- Lots of publicity, Our own online mag for publictiy. Free classes - no stall fees. Are things we are hoping for.

Everything on line. Email a copy of your papers to enter. Use a combination of AMHR/AMHA rules. Non carded repected judges of all breeds. Some want no papered horse too. Maybe

 

[disneyhorse]

Yes, Dr. Taylor... And an "over shown" horse won't perform or place as well.

 

[Crabtree Farm]

Many shetland people don't show shetland when they have the dual horses is as Bob noted, there sometimes one or none in the class, why bother showing to get a hollow victory, wait until Congress for competition.

 

[dreaminmini]

You bring up some good points and I agree there would have to be some proof to the pudding. I would have no problem with having to DNA my horses.

I have done a lot of thinking about this debate. The miniature horse is extremely popular. It's entries far outweigh the Shetlands and the AMHR makes lots more money. Look at Congress as opposed to mini Nationals. There is a reason for that. People prefer the miniature horse, it has wider appeal. They make a great family horse or a horse for someone that can no longer handle the full size horse. Now in order for the Shetland breeders to stay successful they start mixing their Shetlands in with miniatures to make smaller Shetlands. Most judges are Shetland judges. So these double registered ponies start winning. Now they are all the rage. Everyone has to have one in their barn. But in this comes the problem. We are diluting the miniature horse and what they stand for. I see these double registered ponies, more highly strung, hotter come into the ring looking very beautiful. But is the general family person going to want to have one of these. Over the years they had shown their preference for the miniature horse.Are we going to spoil that now??? Yes most minis have Shetland breeding...agreed...but...they have also been carefully chosen and cultivated by dedicated breeders such as LaVern among others to create the miniature horse that everyone loves. Now we are on track to no longer have a miniature HORSE but just a smaller Shetland division. The other issue is that a lot of these double registered are sold with no height guarantees and there have been lots of people that buy these ponies only to have them go over, so then they put them in the barn for breeding so we can breed more double registered ponies that will go over. That is why measuring is such a joke these days. I watched classes at Nationals that blew my mind! 30" and under classes that most of the horses looked bigger than my 33 1/2" mare!!! A yearling colt we showed this year at the top of the measurement and he is the smallest in his class??? Others clearly larger...that is another problem that the double registered is perhaps exacerbating. I realize that there will always be measuring issues but I am talking about how clearly rampant it is becoming.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Although this thread isn't about the discounted AMHR hardship fee, but others have commented, so I will add in my $0.02.

I disagree with the discounted fee. I do believe it helped to lower the value of minis. I think it also made members who paid the higher fee feel like they were taken advantage of.

Now what would be the reasonable rational to raise the fee? How will you feel if your pony couldn't be hard-shipped for the cheaper fee because he was only 2 yrs old, but 'Zeke down the road' got his hard-shipped for the cheaper because his was a year older?

I'm sure the change in fee structure was based on some reasonable rational, but in this case I don't think the positives out weighed the negative.

Dr. Taylor

 

[sdmini]

Many shetland people don't show shetland when they have the dual horses is as Bob noted, there sometimes one or none in the class, why bother showing to get a hollow victory, wait until Congress for competition.

I have to respond to this. Our local fairs are struggling to justify keeping their AMHR shows. I go every year. I hear all the excuses not to go, I don't like fair shows, it's too close to Nationals, it's too expensive, the judges aren't very good, not enough compitition and so on. I agree with many of these things, except I like -the people at fair shows and it's one of the least expensive shows I go to all year. I go because it's the best venue to put our breed out on display for the general public. If I don't support those shows and they die will I be better off as a farm? If those shows die out, how can anyone have any other image in their head than a Thewell pony or some poor example of a mini they seen on TV. I guess if the shows die out I have a lot of pintos so I could start showing PtHA but is that garnering any intrest for the AMHR horse? No it's garnering intrest for any miniature horse that is of height and happens to have spots.

 

[LaVern]

Thanks Doc Taylor, as I value your opinion. I know that this is a bit off topic too, but this was one of those things that happened without warning last year at Convention. It was quite a slap in the face to the Straight AMHR breeder. I think that it was good for only a year, and who know what will happen this year. I personally think that it should go back up to where it was for hard shipping the Shetlands, as we are all one outfit. But, as for the AMHA horses that want to be AMHR, I think that we should up it to exactly what they have been making us pay all these years. It seems only fair. If they didn't take advantage of it at 100.00, they have no right to grumble.

By the way, I dreamed that your Dad and Bruce showed up with a semi load of white faced sheep. It was the craziest thing. So real. Then Bruce told me that you guys do have sheep.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Many shetland people don't show shetland when they have the dual horses is as Bob noted, there sometimes one or none in the class, why bother showing to get a hollow victory, wait until Congress for competition.

Which is why I asked how come we have no qualifications for Congress for the shetlands? That would help fill up the classes.

You bring up some good points and I agree there would have to be some proof to the pudding. I would have no problem with having to DNA my horses.

I have done a lot of thinking about this debate. The miniature horse is extremely popular. It's entries far outweigh the Shetlands and the AMHR makes lots more money. Look at Congress as opposed to mini Nationals. There is a reason for that. People prefer the miniature horse, it has wider appeal. They make a great family horse or a horse for someone that can no longer handle the full size horse. Now in order for the Shetland breeders to stay successful they start mixing their Shetlands in with miniatures to make smaller Shetlands. Most judges are Shetland judges. So these double registered ponies start winning. Now they are all the rage. Everyone has to have one in their barn. But in this comes the problem. We are diluting the miniature horse and what they stand for. I see these double registered ponies, more highly strung, hotter come into the ring looking very beautiful. But is the general family person going to want to have one of these. Over the years they had shown their preference for the miniature horse.Are we going to spoil that now??? Yes most minis have Shetland breeding...agreed...but...they have also been carefully chosen and cultivated by dedicated breeders such as LaVern among others to create the miniature horse that everyone loves. Now we are on track to no longer have a miniature HORSE but just a smaller Shetland division. The other issue is that a lot of these double registered are sold with no height guarantees and there have been lots of people that buy these ponies only to have them go over, so then they put them in the barn for breeding so we can breed more double registered ponies that will go over. That is why measuring is such a joke these days. I watched classes at Nationals that blew my mind! 30" and under classes that most of the horses looked bigger than my 33 1/2" mare!!! A yearling colt we showed this year at the top of the measurement and he is the smallest in his class??? Others clearly larger...that is another problem that the double registered is perhaps exacerbating. I realize that there will always be measuring issues but I am talking about how clearly rampant it is becoming.

Which lies the problem and been said for years. Something needs to change and if we want to become serious we need to close the doors to hardshipping for all. AMHR is just a height registry, anything under 38" can come in as long as it has ASPC, AMHA, and Fabella papers. I compare AMHR a lot to a color registry, we have no serious standard of perfection, it just has to be a good horse with good conformation, well that can be all sorts of types. Close the doors, and create a serious SOP but I guarantee the standard will be just a smaller version of a classic.