AMHR Stud Book

[LaVern]

I don't think I have a clue what I am talking about, but I find it very interesting.

But what if I had already registered little Brownie in AMHA and just not given papers? When he was to be hard-shipped AMHA would they say no you can't as there is already a horse with that DNA?

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

I don't know a lot about this topic and I'm not trying to start anything but here is one side to consider:

What about people who don't have a lot of money and want a cheap mini- get it from an auction, geld it (get it out of the breeding pool) and hardship it? This way they can take the mini to nice shows and enjoy it. Also showing the mini adds value to it- a unregistered mini that has won halter and performance classes is more valuable than one who has not. And the more valuable the mini is the less likely it is to end up in a bad home or sent to slaughter.

If I am wrong on anything I said feel free to KINDLY correct me.

 

[~Lisa~]

Lavern I am confused..(not to difficult for me lately)

Are you for or against DNA?

 

[Relic]

That has already happened to us here over a filly l didn't want bred so sold with that understanding and thats why l was keeping her paperwork. Now l know for a fact that doesn't stop the next guy from breeding her as soon as she's out of my sight but to my way of thinking it's out of my hands can't do much about it..but l'm not having a paper trail follow her that leads to me. The person in question a year later came back wanting her registration papers because she was in foal now and l still refused so he got a lawyer to write me a letter saying l sold a registered mini and the new owner had the right to the paperwork. But remember l sold a filly a one year old and my bill of sale said clearly no registration went with her she was just pet. AMHA was contacted and l told them l didn't want her sold on as registered and sold her as pet though the buyer knew l had papers. This was my choice and felt my right and l was asked to just sent back the paperwork on her. She never did get papers after that or if she did she was hardshipped in. And just thinking of it now l'm still mad some jerk would breed a 2 year old who swore nope not him he wouldn't do that. She wasn't a dwarf per sa but in my eyes had at least 2 faults that could fall that way my reason for selling with no papers on her. You know sometimes they start out fine then things just don't appear right on some of them. l feel as the person that bred and registered her then pulled papers the new owner l guess if he wants can hardship at his cost but l have the right not to hand over what l don't want out there. SORRY l have no idea what this has to do with DNA anymore.

 

[LaVern]

Relic, I am for DNAing and Parent Qualifying, but I hope we go very slowly, and think things through as it is very confusing. I think there will be a lot of ramifications and a big mess, if it is not implemented by much smarter people than me.

I am against letting horses with out ASPC or AMHA papers be hard shipped into AMHR.

 

[ruffian]

I know I should let this go, but it intrigues me so.

Try this one on Please.

Okay I have a parent Qualified AMHA mare and a parent AMHA Qualified Stallion ( which I do).I mate them and send in AMHA Stallion Report. They produce a colt which I don't think will stay under 34 ( most of mine don't). So I registered it Little Brownie AMHR and loose track of where he went..

Then one day I am watching The World Show and their is Little Brownie(he stayed small enough and was hardshipped into AMHA) winning The Supreme horse. Well I guess I will pay the late fees and register little Brownie AMHA because he did not go over 34. What is going to happen when AMHA finds out that Dream Lands Divine Debonaire is really little Brownie. The people that have possession of course own the horse, but who gets the papers? This hard-shipping stuff with DNA is tricky.

You've sold the colt. End of story.

 

[LaVern]

But no one has answered my question. What happens if when someone hardships a horse into AMHA and they DNA it and there is already a horse with that DNA? That is what I am getting at.

 

[Sue_C.]

But no one has answered my question. What happens if when someone hardships a horse into AMHA and they DNA it and there is already a horse with that DNA? That is what I am getting at.

In such a case, the person who was the registered owner of the horse with that DNA would have to either give the papers over to the new owner, or turn them into the registry...which would in fact "unregister" the horse...allowing the people who were hardshipping the horse, to get on with it. Actually...if you have sold a horse without papers...IMO, you should HAVE to return them, the same as when a horse has died. To keep them can be construed as dishonest...as they can be used to register a "ringer".

 

[Minimor]

Davie—I disagree that DNA should be used in the fashion you are suggesting. Like LaVern says, the registry cannot/should not be able to just re-issue papers to some gelding that used to have them when Joe owned him but no longer has them now that Mary owns him. Because what if…

What if this gelding, we’ll call him “Red”, was stolen from Joe’s pasture one night 5 years ago. The thief sold him through the auction and Dixie bought him, and then when Dixie’s kids didn’t like him, she sold Red on to Mary. So now Mary tries to get his papers, based on his DNA, and the registry comes up with Red being Registered Red, belonging to Joe. Why should Mary be able to get papers on Red in her name when Joe never voluntarily signed him over to anyone? Maybe his papers are flagged at the registry, so registry officials get Mary’s DNA and registration request, and they notify Joe that Mary has his horse. Joe loved that horse and wants him back, and contacts police who then go & talk to Mary. In this case DNA is good for Joe, not quite what Mary wanted though!

Or what if Joe sold Red to Dixie on payments…Joe let the horse go to his new home after receiving a down payments, thinking he would get the rest of his money in installments as he & Dixie agreed. But, when Red arrived at Dixie’s place Dixie decided she wasn’t going to pay any more money to Joe—instead she just resold the horse to someone else and told Joe that Red had died and she wasn’t going to pay him any more money. So instead of $1500 for Show Quality Red, Joe has a mere $300 and Red’s registration papers. Now that Red has been sold on a couple of times and Mary has him, why should she be able to send in DNA, find out that her gelding is Show Quality Red who is just 5 points away from his HOF, and have the registry take Red’s papers away from Joe and give them to her??? At most she should be able to use that DNA to find out that yes, Red is registered, that Joe is his registered owner, and contact info for Joe….so that she can call Joe and find out that he will send Red’s papers to her if she pays the balance that is owing on Red.

 

[~Lisa~]

I am against letting horses with out ASPC or AMHA papers be hard shipped into AMHR

I do not see why you think this makes such a huge difference?? AMHA papers what if that horse was hardshipped into AMHA so he has papers that say pretty much nothing but his new name how does that make him better then or more pedigreed then?

There is just as much funny business going on with ASPC horses as there is with AMHR so again how does that paperwork mean more then the fact a horse has papers? It does not insure pedigree until such a point that all horses and ponies are DNA and PQ'd papers are well honestly in some cases not worth more then the paper they are printed on when it comes to accuracy

 

[LaVern]

Lisa I am for only allowing ASPC AMHA , because it is what we do already and it is at least a start. And it works. Who ever it was ( And I think it was back When Glenn was president) was very smart to insist that the current owner or a signed transfer came with the AMHA paperwork before we allowed AMHA horses to be hardshipped in. VERY smart move. The ASPC are already in the clubs studbook. To let unknowns in is going backward.

Sure there are goof ups- unintentionally and intentionally, but I don't think nearly as much as there were years ago.

I would like to see perhaps 4 years from now all hard shipped ASPC- AMHA horses be parent qualified to come in.

Perhaps some time table like AMHA used to implement their program toward Parent Qualifying all AMHR horses down the line. We will have to get over the fact that some things might not jive. And let that go.

But there still are lots of "what ifs" that have to be explained to me before I want to see it become final law. Like Davie's question. How could or would DNA and Parent Qualifiying be used in AMHR.

 

[minimomNC]

Why do Shetlands have to be hardshipped into AMHR if they are already in the studbook? If they measure for their age why shouldn't they just be allowed to be registered. If its all about height why should horses that are already in the Registries Studbooks have to wait three years and pay more?

 

[LaVern]

Because they are a breed like the Arab, Quarter Horse, Welsh, Morgan and we are a just a registry. But at least we have our own stud book. And we do not allow just anyone anymore.

 

[LaVern]

How quickly I forget. I think I said that a few years ago- and here came the Fallabellas.

 

[minimomNC]

But if all rules, regulations and guidelines are decided, voted upon and enforced by the same people for the both registries, why hardship into the same organization. I agree Shetlands are a breed just like Arabians, Quarter Horses and Saddlebreds, but they are not governed by the same people in their own breed and say the Pinto Association which can also register horses from those breeds. To me they are not separate, when I bought shetlands that already had papers, I wasn't given the choice to only transfer them to my name in AMHR, that transfer wouldn't be completed until I also sent in the transfer for ASPC, so if I can't do one without the other, why should I have to pay to hardship a shetland that is within the height limits of AMHR.

And just for the record, I don't have any Shetlands that need to be hardshipped, all of mine are already AMHR/ASPC.

 

[stormy]

Though the two registries are run out of the same office they are seperate registries. Shetlands are not automatically Miniatures, only offspring of AMHR registered parents can be registered AMHR without hardshipping just like any other registry. Running them out of the same office does not make them the same registry.

 

[minimomNC]

If they are so separate then why do I have to transfer both sets of papers at the same time? It can't be both ways, if I don't want to update shetland papers on my AMHR horse, I shouldn't have to if they are truly different registries. I had AMHR papers held up until I sent in the ASPC paperwork. So separate or the same? Seems its not really that clear.

 

[sdmini]

AMHR is still letting "anyone" join. As long as a horse is under 34" they can hardship into AMHA and from there jump ship to AMHR. The cost that is associated in doing it this way I would doubt that happens often but I'm sure it does somewhat. The only horse that could not be eligible for AMHR papers is the horse that measures over 34"-38".

As I understand it with other breeds that currently do have DNA testing, DNA is for parentage qualifying. The labs are not set up to test a individual sample against the entire data base, DNA would not help with recovery of lost papers.

As someone who just sent a little over a $1,000 in various association fees (A & R) I don't know my wishes for DNA. AMHR is drifting away from my goals so I don't know if I would stand a separate DNA charge. DNA without parentage qualification means very little, paper swapping can and still does happen.

Tranfers are required for hardshipping, just like AMHA into AMHR, because they are proof that you own the horse.

 

[LaVern]

Marlee I just called the AMHA office and they told me what I already thought - it would come back that their is already a horse with that DNA. I kind of figured that was the case as it happened to me. Tried to get an old one I bought straighten out and they said sorry we already have a horse with that DNA.

And yes you can still sneak in the AMHA hardship back door through to get into AMHR.

 

[alphahorses]

Does everyone understand what it costs to DNA a horse? I'm not talking about the occasional horse that is 3 and hasn't been registered yet or the sweepstakes horse where there is a lot of money at stake. There are always cases where DNA testing is needed. I'm talking about DNA'ing every horse in your herd. I see dispersal sales on a daily basis on the sale board, and you want to add another burden to people who are already struggling to keep their horses?

If you want to DNA your horses and offer a parentage guarantee, do it! If you want to require that a seller proove parentage before you buy, you have that right to. But why put that burden on other people? You are dreaming if you think that it will increase the value of the horse. Look at how many AMHA horses are being sold for next to nothing. It only adds costs. If I don't trust you to be honest enough with your paperwork or to manage your farm and breeding program well enough to know who the parents are, then I'm probably not going to be interested in buying from you in the first place. I buy almost everything from reputable farms whose owners I TRUST. And people who buy from me know that the parents on my foal's papers are the real parents.

Please people - there are enough problems in this registry right now and people are struggling enough to pay their bills and give proper care to their horses. Let's stop thinking of ways to spend other people's money. That $50 is better spent making sure that my horse is well fed and cared for than in the pockets of a lab.