Attacking, biting, rearing - HELP

[BSharpRanch]

I agree with the "mare squeel". I use it often. Timing is key. My squeel works like a horse. Squeel, swing hip, stomp foot nearest horse. The key is to be LOUD both with the squeel and the stomp the first few times. And if that isn't enough, a well timed smack with the handle of the whip. It won't be long and a quiet eek and a shift of weight will be all it will take to get her attention.

She is at the age of testing her boundries and she needs to be told in no uncertain terms that YOU ARE the head mare of the herd.

JMTCW

 

[Cupcake]

I have seen a MAJOR difference in her this week! No clue why it took me this long to take over and out myself in charge, even with my gelding, I didn't realize how much I let him get away with and sending the wrong message, the laziness on the lunge line, then the flipping out, bucking rearing and racing. Nibbling on hay when tied, slow and lazy change of directions during groundwork. Now? Perfect behavior, moves quick when asked to, stays out of my "bubble", energetic walk and trot. And she's as sweet as she could be, not even impatient during feeding time, comes in and just stands there and patiently waits for her feed. Loving it!

 

[Matt73]

Yay!

 

[Matt73]

Just an FYI, I feed a hay that is probably 60% alfalfa/40% timothy/grass and its 3rd cut. Love it and so do my beasts; I introduced them to it slowly, though. They are now on Alfa Gro 'n Win (a lower % ration balancer). I have always fed them 4 times/day (morning, noon, 4pm, and around 9 or 10). They are on a dry lot and stalled at night. The more often you can feed, the better (but I know many can't, for various reasons. One of the first things they teach you about feeding in Pony Club is "feed little and often"

 

[Cupcake]

I fill her bag when I feed them at night, around 7pm, she eats about half of it throughout the night (still need to weigh it), my scale needs new batteries. Then she gets her feed around 7:30 am and eats more alfalfa, I give her about an hour rest after since she likes to nap after eating. Then I turn her out, this week I've increased that to about 4 hrs, she nibbles on grass through the muzzle and naps and plays out there. I bring her back in so she can have more alfalfa and turn her out again for a couple of hours before dinner. Since I increased her turnout time she's been eating about 1/4 less of her alfalfa so I'm eager to see if that'll do some to lessen the belly some more. It doesn't look "ready to pop" anymore like it still did a month ago. But still there. Today I may have to take the bag out for a few hours as its raining and her pasture is a swamp. I do believe that providing horses with something to nibble on 24/7 is the healthiest approach due to colic. But I know she would chop herself to death if I let her so I'm trying to find a happy medium.

 

[shalakominiatureshowhorses]

Yep, a mare squeel works for me to. Then they look at me like, "What? Your not a horse!" LOL!

 

[Margo_C-T]

From the pics, you have done a fine job of bringing her into MUCH better health/condition...congratulations!

Sounds like you are on track with proper discipline; I agree w/ most of the advice given about quick, sharp correction, and not allowing behavior that may seem 'cute' or 'ok', but may lead to MIS-behavior(agree not to encourage or even allow, licking).

You mentioned her 'going through' a bale of alfalfa in 10 days? If your bales are anywhere NEAR the size that most alfalfa is baled around here, that sounds like way too much for a 30" mare! I am an advocate of alfalfa, have fed it for MANY years, but found it should almost never be the 'only' hay, nor should it be free-fed. The slow feed hay bags/nets are a GREAT idea, but are made to work best w/ grass hays; just due to the 'nature' of alfalfa, they are not going to limit access as well as you need. I would recommend feeding BOTH a decent grass hay AND some alfalfa. Put the grass hay into the slow feed bag; smaller portions of alfalfa could be fed in an ordinary feeder. I like about a 30% alfalfa, 70% grass proportion, but that can be adjusted either way; in the case of a youngster such as your mare, you could use a little higher proportion of alfalfa. Horses really NEED that 'continuous 'grazing' experience; both physically and psychologically; though I don't much care for the idea of grazing muzzles, if she needs it for the reasons you've cited, keep using it as you are...but then, keep a slow feed bag of grass hay available at all, or nearly all, times. With continuing good nutrition, maturation, proper exercise, and an ongoing correct deworming program, any 'pot belly' should really take care of itself over time, IMO.

It is true that young stock needs a higher protein level than older horses; you might consider a quality Jr. concentrate. I am currently using and REALLY like, a FORAGE-based, fortified w/ vit/min/required nutrients,steam-processed, light 'kibble' feed called 'Total Equine'; I believe it is available around the country. I really prefer a similar feed called 'Thrive', but it is hard to obtain outside of TX and a few places in KS and CO. If it ever goes to wider distribution, I will go back to it!! You can google either to read more about them. I also regularly feed a stabilized ground flax, and see results in hair coat and hooves.

Your filly seems to be the 'I-need-to-always-be-doing-something' type; lots of turnout time, exercise, all the 'toys' you can think of that she can safely play with(I have had good results just tying a length of stout hard-lay cotton rope to the fence/overhead, w/ knotted ends, as something to 'mess with')--all to give her something to DO with all that energy...should be useful.

Not sure why it would be thought that horses 'only' rear for two reasons? Yes, fear AND resistance are likely two reasons, but certainly not the only ones...and let's face it, we can't REALLY 'read the minds' of horses, so who can know what ALL the reasons could be?! I do agree, allowing one to rear on the longe line, or ANYTIME it isn't a carefully-taught 'trick' under suitable circumstances, is a bad idea!

Best of luck with your horses(GORGEOUS markings on the paint horse, BTW!)

Margo

 

[wildoak]

Just read through all this, and it sounds like you are making great progress with your filly.

Where in Texas are you paying $22 a bale for hay, or is that for alfalfa? I'm paying $17 for a 2 string bale of alfalfa, and more like $6 for coastal hay. I agree with pretty much everything Margo said.. I have fed alfalfa for many years, but only in a mix with grass hay except for a couple of horses who are colic surgery survivors and are on straight alfalfa per the vet.

I have a big 16 hand mare who likes to be obnoxious on the longe line too - had to go to longeing her in a snaffle with the ring/strap attachment below it like a curb strap so it doesn't pull through her mouth. She's quite a lady with this lol.

Jan

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Not at all keen on muzzles of any sort, although I can see a use for them in an emergency- if she is that bad surely she will also eat the trees and the weeds through the muzzle?

 

[Cupcake]

From the pics, you have done a fine job of bringing her into MUCH better health/condition...congratulations!

Sounds like you are on track with proper discipline; I agree w/ most of the advice given about quick, sharp correction, and not allowing behavior that may seem 'cute' or 'ok', but may lead to MIS-behavior(agree not to encourage or even allow, licking).

You mentioned her 'going through' a bale of alfalfa in 10 days? If your bales are anywhere NEAR the size that most alfalfa is baled around here, that sounds like way too much for a 30" mare! I am an advocate of alfalfa, have fed it for MANY years, but found it should almost never be the 'only' hay, nor should it be free-fed. The slow feed hay bags/nets are a GREAT idea, but are made to work best w/ grass hays; just due to the 'nature' of alfalfa, they are not going to limit access as well as you need. I would recommend feeding BOTH a decent grass hay AND some alfalfa. Put the grass hay into the slow feed bag; smaller portions of alfalfa could be fed in an ordinary feeder. I like about a 30% alfalfa, 70% grass proportion, but that can be adjusted either way; in the case of a youngster such as your mare, you could use a little higher proportion of alfalfa. Horses really NEED that 'continuous 'grazing' experience; both physically and psychologically; though I don't much care for the idea of grazing muzzles, if she needs it for the reasons you've cited, keep using it as you are...but then, keep a slow feed bag of grass hay available at all, or nearly all, times. With continuing good nutrition, maturation, proper exercise, and an ongoing correct deworming program, any 'pot belly' should really take care of itself over time, IMO.

It is true that young stock needs a higher protein level than older horses; you might consider a quality Jr. concentrate. I am currently using and REALLY like, a FORAGE-based, fortified w/ vit/min/required nutrients,steam-processed, light 'kibble' feed called 'Total Equine'; I believe it is available around the country. I really prefer a similar feed called 'Thrive', but it is hard to obtain outside of TX and a few places in KS and CO. If it ever goes to wider distribution, I will go back to it!! You can google either to read more about them. I also regularly feed a stabilized ground flax, and see results in hair coat and hooves.

Your filly seems to be the 'I-need-to-always-be-doing-something' type; lots of turnout time, exercise, all the 'toys' you can think of that she can safely play with(I have had good results just tying a length of stout hard-lay cotton rope to the fence/overhead, w/ knotted ends, as something to 'mess with')--all to give her something to DO with all that energy...should be useful.

Not sure why it would be thought that horses 'only' rear for two reasons? Yes, fear AND resistance are likely two reasons, but certainly not the only ones...and let's face it, we can't REALLY 'read the minds' of horses, so who can know what ALL the reasons could be?! I do agree, allowing one to rear on the longe line, or ANYTIME it isn't a carefully-taught 'trick' under suitable circumstances, is a bad idea!

Best of luck with your horses(GORGEOUS markings on the paint horse, BTW!)

Margo

I feed both of my horses total equine! You're the fist one on this board that seems to ever have heard of it! I believe that it was the main reason I got her back in shape from being underweight. I have been able to put some dents in her belly with total equine and alfalfa only but I like the idea of mixing the hays and will slowly switch her to that.

I agree with the toys, need more ideas on that! She loves playing with the waterhose, it's one that doesn't get tangled and I have it hanging over her fence and running through the pasture and she plays with it all the time, purposely tangling herself up in it, stepping I'm it then dragging it along the fence (nothing dangerous) and when I try to water the trees she drinks straight out of the hose and gets more water than the trees LOL

She's very curious, playful and smart. I think she will do great once she's old enough to really ever worked. She already does the leg yielding, backing up, change direction and whoa perfectly. She also knows to face me and not turn her butt. So we're on the way to become a well behaved little girl

 

[Cupcake]

Not at all keen on muzzles of any sort, although I can see a use for them in an emergency- if she is that bad surely she will also eat the trees and the weeds through the muzzle?

The muzzle she has is the "tough 1" with Velcro straps. Of course she had to try out how they work, not once but twice (!) by clipping her muzzle (and therefore tying herself) to the wire fence (!) and the Velcro came off which provided her with a good lunch! So now I turn the clip so it faces her cheek - it stays put, bit even if she was to get caught somewhere the Velcro would open. I have horse safe trees in her pasture, so no harm if she does eat a leaf or two but if I would let her lose in there without a muzzle the trees would be bare for sure! I will post some pics of her pasture soon.

 

[Cupcake]

Just read through all this, and it sounds like you are making great progress with your filly.

Where in Texas are you paying $22 a bale for hay, or is that for alfalfa? I'm paying $17 for a 2 string bale of alfalfa, and more like $6 for coastal hay. I agree with pretty much everything Margo said.. I have fed alfalfa for many years, but only in a mix with grass hay except for a couple of horses who are colic surgery survivors and are on straight alfalfa per the vet.

I have a big 16 hand mare who likes to be obnoxious on the longe line too - had to go to longeing her in a snaffle with the ring/strap attachment below it like a curb strap so it doesn't pull through her mouth. She's quite a lady with this lol.

Jan

I actually pay $23 for 3 string bales right now, only going up from here, price is the same for alfalfa and coastal, both being brought in from California. I have my big gelding on ulcer meds and a break right now. His behavior in the past 2-3 months has gotten to the point where I suspect an ulcer. Lots of different clues and my only way to find out was to put him on meds and see how and if he changes. Vet would not have been able to see hindgut ulcers so we'll see.

 

[Lil Timber Buck]

I agree about the alfalfa. It made my sweet little boy into a complete dimwit who thought he wrote the book of life. He was out of control! The whip is a good idea. Any contact within the first three seconds is good to let her know but after that you're too late and she won't associate it.Good Luck.

 

[mizbeth]

Hmmm, not good at all. She needs to know you are the boss and the sooner the better. Good luck with her, but I would be terribly firm. I had one do that too for a while, but she outgrew it. She would rear and go for my arm, that stinker. I yelled NO to her and pushed her back - pushing from the chest. It hurt sometimes when she did that.

 

[Cupcake]

Update - i have been weaning her off the alfalfa, not eliminating it, but she now gets a nibblenet of coastal and 2 handful of alfalfa 3 times a day in her feeder. She's lost weight - on the belly! And she's also calmed down, less explosive, still very playful but not like she has the energy of a racehorse and letting it out on her humans. I believe alfalfa may be helping to get rid of a belly but not when you have a horse that stuffs her face with it like there's no tomorrow LoL, she eats much less of the coastal so I think she was overheating on the alfalfa the entire time.

 

[wildoak]

Did Total Equine used to be Aussie Logic? I have some friends who have fed it for several years and are really happy with it for minis and big horses. I was never overwhelmed with it - fed it for a year or better and it was fine for maintenance but I didn't feel it gave my young horses what they needed. Also got very expensive for a 40 lb bag. Think it is a good, very safe feed though.

Jan

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Thanks, I feel you on the alfalfa, I can't feed my gelding more than a small handful (literally) a day, or he acts like a psycho on ecstasy. Only reason I'm feeding it to her is the problem with the potbelly. I would rather feed her hay, cheaper and also way less coarse than the alfalfa. But it may add to the excess energy she has.

There are better ways than rich, coarse, high-energy alfalfa to address that belly. The belly is mainly a result of not enough protein and quality feed usually, and it's one reason why many mini people including myself go to the extra work of feeding beet pulp. The combination of a good quantity of soaked beet pulp, a basic low-starch, low-sugar complete feed to keep their topline in good shape and plenty of good-quality grass hay will usually take care of the problem all by itself. That and a lot of free exercise, of course! Does she have a large ball or other toys?

Leia

Edited to add-

Now that I've read the other five pages of replies, it seems like you're doing everything right for her and her new feed program should be great. I'd still try a little beet pulp but keep up the Coastal/alfalfa mix! My two boys together only go through about a bale a month of Eastern Washington Timothy hay so I agree with Margo that a bale of alfalfa in 10 days was likely enough to make her explosive.

I think trick training is great to keep them busy. I don't believe in clicker/positive reinforcement when it comes to training dogs or horses, I think a good balance between correction and lots of praise does a much better job, BUT I do think treats work great for trick training.

Praise IS positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is simply the removal of something unpleasant (like pressure or an aggravating noise) when the animal does what you want, while positive reinforcement is the addition of something they find pleasant to reward the desired behavior. That can be praise, food, scratches, whatever the animal likes. Clicker training uses a noise (a "click") to mark the moment of desired behavior more clearly but you don't have to use food as the reward after the click. You can praise and scratch instead if the animal will work for that. I agree that a balance of correction and praise is the fastest way to train so perhaps you meant that you don't believe in using strictly positive reinforcement?

Leia

 

[Margo_C-T]

Regarding Jan's question about Total Equine--I'd about bet that is is 'THRIVE' that 'used to be Aussie Logic'! THRIVE is what I discovered before 'TOTAL EQUINE', via info from a Texas woman who was posting on the mini driving group list. My daughter was visiting in TX just at the time, and was able to pick up a couple of bags and bring them to me. The 'originator' of THRIVE is an Australian,name of Dale Moulton, who apparently now lives in TX? I REALLY liked THRIVE, but then, I no longer have ANY young stock. It's primary ingredient is alfalfa, second was timothy...so TWO FORAGE plants as the major ingredients. It was around $18.50/40 lb. bag, and recommended feeding level at 4 lb/1000 lb. horse/day, so yes, more expensive than other 'concentrates', probably. Trouble is, it is sold almost NOWHERE outside of TX...hence why I changed to TOTAL EQUINE(which is ONLY available at ONE location in the entire Albuq. metro area; I have to drive a round trip of @ 60 mi. to get mine.)

The two feeds are very similar in concept and composition.I am happy w/ the TE, since I cannot get the other...cost is slightly less than the THRIVE, and it is sold on one of the reservations, so NO SALES TAX! I am pleased w/ how my horses look and act on it!

Margo

 

[SMW]

I think I'd be inclined to carry a dressage whip with me when I went into her space and use it when she invades my space. A good spank or two on the shoulder (or possibly lower legs, if that's all you can reach) should hopefully bring her back to earth and reality. [the dressage whip would probably work on the calf biting too, as if you are carrying it at your side, it would be an easy motion to lightly pop her with it when she gets to your leg.]

My 3 month old colt bites my calves now and then, and I usually just raise my foot and pop him in the chin, not hard, but hard enough he's gotten the hint that biting is not acceptable.

couldn't say it better. I learned this watching my boss help me with a particularly nasty colt we have (i think he's 2 approaching 3), as a shetland he has his nasty moments, but with consistant discipline of "No" and the dressage whip to the toes if he rears and a bop on the nose if he bites - he's almost normal (knocking on wood vigourously!) Had a break through yesterday where he is now leading nicely without being a jackass (although this was with a whip in my hand just in case, with a tap on the rear if he stopped.) From what i've learned from experience whether it be big or small horse, consistency is your biggest tool! Keep telling her what is and is not acceptable and eventually she will start getting it. Will watch this thread to see how you do, and hopefully your mare will be calm soon!

 

[Cupcake]

There are better ways than rich, coarse, high-energy alfalfa to address that belly. The belly is mainly a result of not enough protein and quality feed usually, and it's one reason why many mini people including myself go to the extra work of feeding beet pulp. The combination of a good quantity of soaked beet pulp, a basic low-starch, low-sugar complete feed to keep their topline in good shape and plenty of good-quality grass hay will usually take care of the problem all by itself. That and a lot of free exercise, of course! Does she have a large ball or other toys?

Leia

Edited to add-

Now that I've read the other five pages of replies, it seems like you're doing everything right for her and her new feed program should be great. I'd still try a little beet pulp but keep up the Coastal/alfalfa mix! My two boys together only go through about a bale a month of Eastern Washington Timothy hay so I agree with Margo that a bale of alfalfa in 10 days was likely enough to make her explosive.

Praise IS positive reinforcement. Negative reinforcement is simply the removal of something unpleasant (like pressure or an aggravating noise) when the animal does what you want, while positive reinforcement is the addition of something they find pleasant to reward the desired behavior. That can be praise, food, scratches, whatever the animal likes. Clicker training uses a noise (a "click") to mark the moment of desired behavior more clearly but you don't have to use food as the reward after the click. You can praise and scratch instead if the animal will work for that. I agree that a balance of correction and praise is the fastest way to train so perhaps you meant that you don't believe in using strictly positive reinforcement?

Leia

Yes I meant the "positive only", I don't agree with that. I believe in establishing leadership (dogs and horses) using correction AND praise equally. The strength of the correction has to be balanced with the equal amount of praise.

She has a mini (dog) size jolly ball and a big one. She's more interested in the big one, rolling it down the hill and kicking it around

I'd like some more ideas to turn her pasture in a mini playground, safe and fun - anyone? Playing ring around the Rosie (sp?) with the waterhose is one of her favorites... When I'm trying to pull the hose over the fences she's on the other side trying to wrap herself in it faster than I can pull it

I just got REALLY lucky with a great farrier who's also a mini owner so I'm getting some great advice since she also went to school for equine nutrition and much more (we talked so much I couldn't remember everything - women )

Will post more in the other threat about the farrier question...