Breeding outside mares

[PromiseAcres]

As a new stallion owner I am curious as to pros and cons about breeding outside mares. I would welcome the opportunity to breed my stallion to more mares as I only have 2 myself. But I know that there's some definant downsides to it. So if anyone has a few minutes would you tell us why or why not you breed your stallions to outside mares.

Thanks Danielle

 

[Reble]

We have been ask this a lot. We just say NO but thanks for asking.

Cons:

worry about something I missed in the contract.

worry about infection from an outside mare.

Do not want our stallion hurt and end up not being able to show or breed.

Do not want something happening to a Mare that is not ours.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Pros

You have a chance to see what your stallion does with many different types of mares- giving you a chance to do this in a much shorter time then the avg breeder can.

if you are selective about your mares you choose odds are you can get your foals out there in the show ring

Cons

a risk for stallion and mares

huge responsiblity for stallion owner with mare care

if someone can breed there mare to your stallion for say 500 bucks why then would they purchase a foal from you for 1500-2000

If the foals are not as nice as you would have hoped for out of there mares you have no control, cant make sure colts are gelded ect.

 

[Sarah's Little Blessings]

Well I won't do it(unless its for a swap to somebody special, hint HINT!!LOL) but otherwise no, to many wild mares,infections, and I am scared that they would hurt my stallion, sure my mares could do the same damage, but at least their mine, and also as said, not knowing what colts wouldn't be gelded,ect(even though I have had 1 bad experience from gelding,I still believe in it!) and who knows about the contract!!!?

Anyways just my two cents worth, -Sarah

 

[Jill]

I've decided not to do it for a few reasons:

• I don't really like the idea of being responsible for caring for other people's mares (and dealing with owner personalities)
• I have my own mares, kept or chosen because they look like good matches for my boys -- I will offer some of their foals for sale
• To protect my investment in my stallions

 

[wildoak]

I've only bred outside mares on a very limited, "swap" basis for people I know well. You open yourself to a liability when you take someone else's mares in on a strictly business basis. Some positives to it if you get in quality mares, but can be a headache too.

Jan

 

[Margaret]

This year we have taken in two outside mares that have been just wonderful durring their stay.

Ive been doing this for years and have not had any problems so far..

We hand breed to keep the situtation as safe as possible, and the mare is treated like a queen bee, with her own pasture, and private stalling at night.

I have a short contract that keeps me non-liable if something unforseen happens to the mare while she is on my property, and she is cared for like my own..

 

[Mnmini]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that some of the CONS mentioned to standing a stallion to outside mares, such as "protecting my investment in my stallion," and "if someone can breed to my stallion for $500, why would they want to pay $1,500-2000 for my foals?" (not picking on anyone, your opinions are certainly as valid as my own) and others that allude to a general reluctance to deal with outside mare and their owners is in contravention to the general consensus that we would like to see fewer stallions being used for breeding?

Why indeed. We uniformly denounce "everyone" having a stallion, and creating more foals. Apparently, because we want them to all buy from us!?! Yet, what this "breed" is sorely lacking ARE good quality stallions that stand to the public. If shipped semen (I realize this isn't a successful venture yet), among other things, were readily available to mare owners, the number of breeding stallions would undoubtedly drop. A lot of one and two mare breeders could choose from the best possible matches from all over the country, with a multitude of bloodlines to find what is the best possible cross. Without having to own a stallion, mare owners would have an easy time justifying leaving a mare open. Many "big" horse breeders do not stand stallions, though they may have many breeding mares, because we don't HAVE to have a stallion, and don't want to be limited to just having his genetics. There is little issue with the brand name stallions commanding a stud fee, and the foals produced by their owner selling as well. Because, in many cases breeders have collected an outstanding band of mares, and buyers want THAT particular cross, or they buy because the odds are already better when they buy what they can see, versus hoping they produce the same or better with their own mares.

Just my opinion, but we as a breed/breeders are not going to rise above the backyard breeding mentality until we make it (good quality stallions) readily available to the mare owning public. The answer is not simply "buy from me, big name breeder/breeder wannabe" If that were the solution, we'd already be there, lol.

 

[Jill]

Everyone else is not my responsiblity, but my stallions are. Trust me, mine aren't the only ones worth breeding to in the state of VA and I'd be happy to refer someone to a farm with very nice stallions available to outside mares. For me personally, given the mares I have, the time I have, and knowing what a good majority of the "horse people" can be like when it comes to business, MY gates aren't open to outside mares.

Additionally, the problem isn't only the tremendous number of poor quality stallions reproducing, but the fact that too many people become miniature horse breeders right off the bat, before they really know anything about minis or horses. I never saw a breed where so many owners are also "breeders".

 

[HGFarm]

For some breeders it is not only a business, but for the betterment of the breed, and if you have a well known and sought after bloodline or valued stallion, you want to keep it the best that you can, and there is nothing wrong, from a business point of view, to not breed to outside mares- for the many reasons listed above. When stallions are bred so much that 'everyone has one of those' of that bloodline, then what value do they have? There is nothing wrong with not breeding to outside mares for a price (it is a LOT of work sometimes) to be able to have a market for your own foals and control what the market gets. I find that opinion a more healthy one in regards to the market being flooded with everything. There are plenty of people out there that DO breed to outside mares and I feel it is just a person's own choice as to whether they want to deal with it and why- or why not.

I do not breed to outside mares for several reasons:

*Being responsible for someone else's livestock

*Infections or other diseases brought in from outside livestock

*The extra work involved regarding taking care of another mare (I work full time so already have my hands full of my own)

*Making sure the contract is fool proof as many folks nowadays are out to get something for nothing and just dont seem happy unless they get it.

*And yes, the control over using good sense as to what needs to be gelded and what doesnt, and what happens to the foals

*Making sure that your customer's mare gets settled, regardless if the mare is not an easy breeder or may have had problems in the past (that may or may not have been disclosed to you)

*Making sure that all monies are collected for breeding fees and mare care, vet bills and health care, while the mare is with you, that the owner is responsible for but now is dragging their feet about paying.

I sold a mare as hopefully bred - she was vet checked but it was a maybe- and when she turned up not pregnant, I rebred another mare at no charge. The mare was unattended during foaling (they are left to foal on their own) and the owners lost the foal. They then wanted ANOTHER breeding to replace that foal they lost. I did not rebreed the mare. I also discovered that the horses were not fed that well there and was not going to be responsible for that type of situation that I had no control over. I also did not get all the feed replaced, as was the deal, on feeding the mare while she was there.

Many times I have seen folks breed their 'fabulous' mares to someone else's stallion and when the foal didnt turn out to be a world champion or what they wanted, it was all the stallion's fault. I guess I just dont have the patience to put up with that or the other issues that people can cause while dealing with them.

I worry enough about my own mares, I dont need to add to it. Just my opinion on it all....

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Does it strike anyone else as strange that some of the CONS mentioned to standing a stallion to outside mares, such as "protecting my investment in my stallion," and "if someone can breed to my stallion for $500, why would they want to pay $1,500-2000 for my foals?" (not picking on anyone, your opinions are certainly as valid as my own) and others that allude to a general reluctance to deal with outside mare and their owners is in contravention to the general consensus that we would like to see fewer stallions being used for breeding?

Why indeed. We uniformly denounce "everyone" having a stallion, and creating more foals. Apparently, because we want them to all buy from us!?! Yet, what this "breed" is sorely lacking ARE good quality stallions that stand to the public.

Just my opinion, but we as a breed/breeders are not going to rise above the backyard breeding mentality until we make it (good quality stallions) readily available to the mare owning public. The answer is not simply "buy from me, big name breeder/breeder wannabe" If that were the solution, we'd already be there, lol.

Well I can say explaining my part... you are right...not everyone should have stallions period It isnt about wanting everyone to buy from me ( I dont even have anything for sale or anything expecting in 2008 more then likely 2009 either)

But the issue is not standing out your stallion to others mares and that would reduce the amount of breeding. The issue is (*and myself is included in this) minis are one of the only breeds if not the only breed that 80 percent (a rounded off guesstimate number) of owners ARE BREEDERS be it from there own stallion or outside stallions ect

Standing a stallion wont reduce the number of nor the discussion of breeding quality vs pet quality horses being bred cause that would mean that everyone would have to agree on what makes a good stallion and just a few visits to some web sites will show that many dont agree on that fact.

So it wouldnt IMO change anything until we get off the issue that minis are a breed being bred to breed. No matter who owns the stallions they are bred to JMHO though

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I personally have allowed outside mares to come to our property for breeding. Maybe I've just been lucky, but so far it has been a positive experience. I require certain things and I guarantee certain things. For instance:

The mare must have a negative/clean culture and cytology, must have had a breeding soundness exam by a knowledgeable vet (or they can get these things after they arrive at our farm), I get to personally pick the mare based on conformation/pedigree, the mare owner must have the mare insured, I only hand breed and the mare is treated like a queen. In return, I give a LFG (that goes well beyond what most consider a live foal), I offer refunds/incentives if the resulting foal is shown and I am responsible for any injury to my stallion.

My experience with sending my own mares out is that it cost just as much, if not MORE, than just buying a foal from that particular stallion. When you add up transportation, cultures, ultrasounds, mare care plus the breeding fee, it ain't cheap!!! And I don't mind it when the stallion is worth it. Even though I have my own stallions, I will always send a mare or two out each year. It keeps new blood coming into my herd and it gives me a wonderful variety that I couldn't get unless I owned tons of stallions and that's just not feasible.

So far, I'm a fan of sending/receiving mares for outside breedings.

And I will swap breedings with certain special friends! (You know who you are!)

:

 

[Mnmini]

Apparently I was wrong, offering a selection of good stallions to the public is not the answer to the problem of too many mediocre breeding stallions. This must be similar to that old joke that 1 in 3 people is crazy, if it's not either of your friends, it must be you. So, everyone "else" should stop breeding their mediocre stallions

:

 

[kaykay]

It is a bit of a catch 22 that I do agree with. Not long ago a person called me from out of state wondering why the heck it is so hard to buy breedings to top miniature and pony stallions. I understand it from both sides! I understand breeders not wanting to stud their stallion out and I understand people who say this is why everyone feels they have to own a stallion. I have stood mine out to people i know really well and people who have mares that I feel are a good match for my stallion.

I have found though some people get really offended when I want to see a picture of the mare. I have to be sure that it is a good cross! That is the only reason I want to see the mare. Not everyone sees conformation the same.

I guess there is no easy answer

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Apparently I was wrong, offering a selection of good stallions to the public is not the answer to the problem of too many mediocre breeding stallions. This must be similar to that old joke that 1 in 3 people is crazy, if it's not either of your friends, it must be you. So, everyone "else" should stop breeding their mediocre stallions

:

Well thanks for that

: however I clearly said I am NOT BREEDING simply due to the fact that I realized no matter what the quality of the sire and dam.. it is adding to the problem.

If only it were as simple as breeding a National Champion to a National Champion to get one...

if that were the case everyone would have one.

Bottom line is we as a breed need to come up with something else that is important to this breed aside from breeding stock.

I mean this is a breed where horses are retired at 2 or 3 to head to the breeding shed

: the sole purpose of breeding them having them, showing them, owning them seems to be so that you can breed and make more of them

Of course a very diligent stallion owner making choices for there stallion (protecting there investment) however that would lead to denying at least 85 percent of the mares out there so then it is back to square one..

those who are looking to further the breed and make choices they feel are best will continue to do so and those the ones that are willing to spend a couple thousand to send a horse across the country, all the repro work and mare care will do whatever it takes to make sure they cross the best they can and then hope for the best as it is a crap shoot

and those who cant find a stallion owner willing to accept there mare will do what they are doing now breed to what they can.. and back to ... why do we feel we HAVE to breed I admit here I am not better then.. I was one of those as well and I am not saying I will never breed again I am just saying that I am now fully aware quality opinions aside that I have been part of the problem and for now am doing what I can do to make it better (in my little corner of the world)

 

[Ashley]

I have to agree with MNmini.

Hardly anybody in this area stands there studs at public. If they did I honestly wouldnt have a stud as I like several here, but cant breed to them.

I have been asked to stand mine. I did think about it and was going to, until a outside horse came in and get everybody sick. THat just made me relize that right there wasnt worth the risk to me. You can require all the stuff be done to mares ahead of time, but there are less then honest vets out there as well as horse owners.

Heck I have found the answer to my issue tho..........forget the minis.....lets move to Shetlands and show, not breed!

 

[Mnmini]

Apparently I was wrong, offering a selection of good stallions to the public is not the answer to the problem of too many mediocre breeding stallions. This must be similar to that old joke that 1 in 3 people is crazy, if it's not either of your friends, it must be you. So, everyone "else" should stop breeding their mediocre stallions

:

Well thanks for that

: however I clearly said I am NOT BREEDING simply due to the fact that I realized no matter what the quality of the sire and dam.. it is adding to the problem.

If only it were as simple as breeding a National Champion to a National Champion to get one...

if that were the case everyone would have one.

Bottom line is we as a breed need to come up with something else that is important to this breed aside from breeding stock.

I mean this is a breed where horses are retired at 2 or 3 to head to the breeding shed

: the sole purpose of breeding them having them, showing them, owning them seems to be so that you can breed and make more of them

Of course a very diligent stallion owner making choices for there stallion (protecting there investment) however that would lead to denying at least 85 percent of the mares out there so then it is back to square one..

those who are looking to further the breed and make choices they feel are best will continue to do so and those the ones that are willing to spend a couple thousand to send a horse across the country, all the repro work and mare care will do whatever it takes to make sure they cross the best they can and then hope for the best as it is a crap shoot

and those who cant find a stallion owner willing to accept there mare will do what they are doing now breed to what they can.. and back to ... why do we feel we HAVE to breed I admit here I am not better then.. I was one of those as well and I am not saying I will never breed again I am just saying that I am now fully aware quality opinions aside that I have been part of the problem and for now am doing what I can do to make it better (in my little corner of the world)

You said you weren't breeding, so obviously not aimed at you. It is a perplexing problem, and one that is apparently not easily resolved. I was getting tongue-in-cheek snarky because folks are quick to identify that we have problems..it is usually "the other guy" that IS the problem in their estimation, and either no solution is offered or the standard issue, "they" shouldn't be breeding. A gelding clause is a nice thought...but it would be better to geld the little rascals before they leave the farm.

We have a "breed" that was founded on "small." There's nothing wrong with that as a breeding goal (not sacrificing quality of course), but it makes our "breed" somewhat unique in that we have a majority of breeders that are breeding for small, or halter only (or halter type, but won't actually be competing with anything), rather than an animal bred to DO something. Every breed has animals produced that end up as companion animals, and by that I mean pasture ornaments. Either they can't be ridden/used for recreation due to physical issues, or their owner simply chooses not to "use" them for any recreational purpose.

The difference between mini breeders and the general horse breeding population is that we seem to have a preponderance of breeders that breed TO produce more companion/breeding animals. Their breeding animals haven't set foot in an arena, they don't show anything they raise, ergo their chances of getting anything in a show home to validate (either positively or negatively) that they are producing something of breeding quality is very slim. That isn't to say that show ring success is the measure of all greatness, it isn't, but when your breeding animals, and/or their produce aren't getting evaluated in some competitive capacity, in a breed not known for "doing" anything, there isn't much left to quantify what should, and should not remain in the breeding pool. Do not read this to mean I advocate only show animals being bred, that isn't the case at all. Truthfully, I would like to see us breeding with a purpose of animals that DO something. It is much easier to "sell" to the horse buying public, whether they already own a big horse, or none at all, an animal that can have a recreational purpose, than one that can only be a companion, or a breeding animal, or gee, BOTH! I have heard the parallels to dog ownership, and how dogs are primarily companion animals. And, as I said, there's nothing wrong with minis ending up as companions, but if we follow the parallel further, we know that indiscriminant breeding of dogs, because they have "papers" for example, has led to the glut of animals that wind up in the pound on a staggering basis. Some of them, their owners undoubtedly paid plenty of $$ on. We don't have that outlet for excess minis even. That, at least, would be a humane end to our thoughtless over production.

 

[Jill]

Bottom line is at my place, I decide what I am or am not willing to do, and point blank, I don't feel like being responsible for other people's mares, and I don't feel like dealing with a lot of the horse people out there. There's not going to be a stud fee high enough to make me want to deal with the hassle, and if someone really wants a foal by one of my guys, they could probably buy one. I'm not responsible for improving anyone else's breeding options when it's an imposition on what I'm comfortable taking responsibility for (and my free time).

ALSO, it's not that there are not quality colts and stallions available to purchase for people to breed. I think there are a lot of people breeding miniatures who don't have an understanding of good conformation and good type (yeah, I know -- two different things but two things that are both important). That and maybe some people want to buy a $500 stallion and a $700 mare especially if they're neat colors. People breed poor quality because they haven't learned better or because they haven't decided to come off a dime and get something nice (and trust me -- those don't want to pay stud fees). People looking for outside stallions to breed to will find quality ones available in my area.

One day, when I have more time and more room, I may be willing to have a couple-few outside mares in, but right now, no. It's just not worth it to me right now for the reasons I have stated.

 

[Charlotte]

We used to stand our AQHA & Arabian stallions to the public so of course started out that way with our miniatures. .... Not any more. Reasons:

Despite all of the 'health requirements' we had a couple of outside mares pick up something during transport and infect our herd via our stallions.

We had and still have numerous requests to breed to Cowboy. Our contract stated that the mare 'must be attended during foaling'. We had several episodes of....."Grandpa checked on her every hour but the foal was stillborn" (I read that as the foal didn't get out of the sack and SUFFOCATED because the foaling wasn't attended). Another, "We found a dead foal in the pen but it could have been born a few days ago". :no: That's it for me! I'm not helping to create babies that don't have a chance of surviving not to mention the danger to the mare of an unattended foaling!

And the third issue for me was the unmanageable/untrained mares! Life is too short.

Charlotte

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Oh Charlotte! I totally understand where you're coming from, but I have to publically admit that I have these grand plans in my head that when Mira is mature enough, Cowboy is the ONLY one for her!

: I can't think of another stallion that I'd even consider risking her tiny little frame with! This of course assuming she even matures to the point where breeding seems feasible AND that I can talk you and Frank into making an exception to your rule!

:

We used to stand our AQHA & Arabian stallions to the public so of course started out that way with our miniatures. .... Not any more. Reasons:
Despite all of the 'health requirements' we had a couple of outside mares pick up something during transport and infect our herd via our stallions.

We had and still have numerous requests to breed to Cowboy. Our contract stated that the mare 'must be attended during foaling'. We had several episodes of....."Grandpa checked on her every hour but the foal was stillborn" (I read that as the foal didn't get out of the sack and SUFFOCATED because the foaling wasn't attended). Another, "We found a dead foal in the pen but it could have been born a few days ago". :no: That's it for me! I'm not helping to create babies that don't have a chance of surviving not to mention the danger to the mare of an unattended foaling!

And the third issue for me was the unmanageable/untrained mares! Life is too short.

Charlotte