Can you tell conformation under all that hair?

[Riverdance]

Riverdance,
I have been following your "clipping out" threads but have not posted anything. Yes, there is a drastic difference between hair and no hair, but I believe that you can see what a horse looks like to a certain extent with their coats on.

We also live in a cold area, Massachusetts, but not as cold as where you live. I have some furry yaks in my barn, and I am currently working 17 for the show year. I have to strictly go off of what I see with their coats on, as I will not be able to clip until April. I have 2 yearlings in the barn that have never been clipped, but even with their shaggy coats, I can see what I have. 99% of the time, if you have a horse that looks good with long hair, they will clip out to look similar to what you envisioned. A little different from your opinion, but thats ok, I respect that.

Now, as far as age dictating experience...... I am 19 years old and have been in the mini industry my whole life. I walked into my first rated AMHA horse show when I was 3 and have been to the World or National show for the past 10 years. I have observed the techniques of many pro trainers, and asked so many questions that it has made my head spin. No, I do not know everything. I do not claim to be a know it all, and even though I have won a few world titles and some National titles, I do not believe that gives me the right to say I know it all or push my opinion on everyone else. Everything with training routines, clipping etc. is based purely off of an individuals opinion.... I have found that there is rarely one right answer, and someone can spend a lifetime learning, but still not know everything.

Respectfully,

Kristina

Kristian,

You show a lot of maturity and I respect your feelings that you know what your horses look like under the hair.

Also, I am not trying to say that I know everything, far from it. Nor do I feel that someone young does not know a lot. Many do, especially if they have been at it for as many years as you have, and acomplished what you have. But, if someone has not been at it for many years, be it old or young and think they know everything, then it is hard to repect their opinion.

Your maturity shows when you are quick to point out what you have done and yet stiill feel you do not know everything.

I am not trying to shove anything down anyones throat, least of all my opinions.

You must admit this has been a good thread with many opinions. Some we all can agree with, some we can not. No one is ever right either. (some just more right than others)

Nor am I always right. It is just my opinion.

 

[KTS@Sawmill River]

Kristian,
You show a lot of maturity and I respect your feelings that you know what your horses look like under the hair.

Also, I am not trying to say that I know everything, far from it. Nor do I feel that someone young does not know a lot. Many do, especially if they have been at it for as many years as you have, and acomplished what you have. But, if someone has not been at it for many years, be it old or young and think they know everything, then it is hard to repect their opinion.

Your maturity shows when you are quick to point out what you have done and yet stiill feel you do not know everything.

I am not trying to shove anything down anyones throat, least of all my opinions.

You must admit this has been a good thread with many opinions. Some we all can agree with, some we can not. No one is ever right either. (some just more right than others)

Nor am I always right. It is just my opinion.

Sue,

Well said!!!

 

[Westwood Farms]

I got to thinking about this topic. Well, kinda this topic.

I always want to see current pictures. Here is why. The horse may have foundered in the past, have rotated hooves and legs. Pictures from this summer may not show this, as it might have happened in the winter, anything can happen.

you can also tell something about the condition of the horse by the hair. If the horse is fairly well cared for, the long fur still looks good. If not, they are straggly looking, and their eye will not be bright .

All of these things go with a reputable breeder. They will be ready to get those pasture shots for ya, if they really want to sell a horse. Many minis are not gorgeous in the winter furs, but with a current one, conformation per say cannot be seen, but the overall condition can.

I have turned down really nice stallions and mares, because the owner would not get current pictures for me.

I personally thought yours would have been nice looking, just by the fact that the hooves looked fine, and she was bright eyed, and fur condition was good.

Conformation?, Who knows

 

[maestoso]

Riverdance,

You might be careful in saying that those here who are telling you that they can see through the hair haven't competed past the local level, because there are at least 2 who have, including myself. I will gladly admit that 2008 was my first time at the World Show, and was happy and proud to receive a top ten. That said, I think there are people out there who have never shown at all who could judge conformation better than most people here. It just depends on the experience that they have had, and the knowledge they have obtained. Competing at the local or national level are not the only ways to learn and to become educated.

I think you should stick to your guns, and only provide your nice summer clipped pictures. As long as you think it helps and works for you that's great. At the very least, you have shown those of us who like to see recent(winter if it happens to be winter) pictures, that shopping at your farm may not be the best place to start, because you won't have the photos we are looking for.

You are right to say that I could be missing out on a great horse by not pursuing something that I can't get recent pictures on. However, you could be missing out on a sale by not providing those pictures. I guess that's a risk we'll both have to take.

Another perspective, while I don't know your personal situation, in most cases, farms need to sell their horses more than buyers need to buy them. There's a million nice horses out there. If not your horse there will surely be another just as nice or nicer where you CAN get the fuzzy pictures. Maybe it doesn't matter to you weather you sell your foals or not. But I would wager to say that for most farms, it is important for them to sell the stock that they are trying to sell. And the best way to sell a horse is to(with honesty, the well being of the horse in mind, and within reason) give the buyer what they want.

 

[susanne]

Sue, I don't mean this to be overly critical, but I have to say this entire thread is moot.

As they say, the customer is always right.

You certainly have the right to refuse to take the requested photos, and the potential buyer has the right to move on or tell you that your photos did not show them the horse for which they are looking. This does not make them ignorant, inexperienced or disrespectful of your knowledge and years of showing at Nationals and World.

It makes them cautious, and therefore wise.

No matter how silly you deem their request or what you think they can see or not see, it is their decision. They are the ones sending their hard-earned money to someone they have most likely never met (and who are likely paying even more for long distance transportation).

In this day of internet scams and dishonest sellers in the horse world and beyond, who could ever blame anyone for wanting to see current AND old photos, hairy and clipped, posed and casual, full body and closeup?

Any one of us is taking a HUGE leap of faith buying over the internet. The seller, whether it be Joe Shmoe or Little Kings, should do everything possible to reassure the buyer. I guarantee you that the least bit of doubt, no matter how impressive the seller, would send me running.

Cute filly, though...I assume she's for sale?

 

[Riverdance]

Riverdance,
You might be careful in saying that those here who are telling you that they can see through the hair haven't competed past the local level, because there are at least 2 who have, including myself. I will gladly admit that 2008 was my first time at the World Show, and was happy and proud to receive a top ten. That said, I think there are people out there who have never shown at all who could judge conformation better than most people here. It just depends on the experience that they have had, and the knowledge they have obtained. Competing at the local or national level are not the only ways to learn and to become educated.

I think you should stick to your guns, and only provide your nice summer clipped pictures. As long as you think it helps and works for you that's great. At the very least, you have shown those of us who like to see recent(winter if it happens to be winter) pictures, that shopping at your farm may not be the best place to start, because you won't have the photos we are looking for.

You are right to say that I could be missing out on a great horse by not pursuing something that I can't get recent pictures on. However, you could be missing out on a sale by not providing those pictures. I guess that's a risk we'll both have to take.

Another perspective, while I don't know your personal situation, in most cases, farms need to sell their horses more than buyers need to buy them. There's a million nice horses out there. If not your horse there will surely be another just as nice or nicer where you CAN get the fuzzy pictures. Maybe it doesn't matter to you weather you sell your foals or not. But I would wager to say that for most farms, it is important for them to sell the stock that they are trying to sell. And the best way to sell a horse is to(with honesty, the well being of the horse in mind, and within reason) give the buyer what they want.

Matt,

Congratulations on your top 10, I heard it was in Amateur Showmanship. Job well done.

As for people buying from me, I have plenty of repeat buyers as they know I breed a nice horse and am as honest as I can be. Sometimes too honest. My reputation is getting out there that I am fair and honest.

My horses do well in the show ring, and I am always striving to do even better.

I am always quick to help a newbee, and try to fit the horse with the buyer. Someone just starting out does not need a hot head, nor do they need an expensive top show horse. They need to learn the ropes first. A good starter horse that does not strain their budget. I take payments to also help them in their sales.

I do not send my horses to trainers, as I want them to win right now on their own merrits.(another way for me to learn what I need to improve) Will I some day send them out with a trainer, probably.

If someone insists upon hairy pictures, I have and will take them, though I know that it will probably kill the sale. Thus my reason for this forum topic. I was trying to educate the buying public as well as myself on what people feel about hairy pictures. Especially in the most northern climates.

You have made this a rather testy topic and perhaps you could learn from it and not always post a plethatude of knowledge that maybe you do or do not have. Sometimes one could be a bit more humble and acknowledge that one does not know everything. Thus perhaps, one can then learn more things.

I do not profess to know much of anything, except what I have learned over 40 years of showing and breeding animals. Am I right, sometimes yes, and sometimes no. But, it is just my opinion.

Up here in Minnesota, our horses are a lot more hairy then horses around the country. I posted my fillys picture to prove that point. It was supposed to be a fun topic.

 

[Riverdance]

Sue, I don't mean this to be overly critical, but I have to say this entire thread is moot.
As they say, the customer is always right.

You certainly have the right to refuse to take the requested photos, and the potential buyer has the right to move on or tell you that your photos did not show them the horse for which they are looking. This does not make them ignorant, inexperienced or disrespectful of your knowledge and years of showing at Nationals and World.

It makes them cautious, and therefore wise.

No matter how silly you deem their request or what you think they can see or not see, it is their decision. They are the ones sending their hard-earned money to someone they have most likely never met (and who are likely paying even more for long distance transportation).

In this day of internet scams and dishonest sellers in the horse world and beyond, who could ever blame anyone for wanting to see current AND old photos, hairy and clipped, posed and casual, full body and closeup?

Any one of us is taking a HUGE leap of faith buying over the internet. The seller, whether it be Joe Shmoe or Little Kings, should do everything possible to reassure the buyer. I guarantee you that the least bit of doubt, no matter how impressive the seller, would send me running.

Cute filly, though...I assume she's for sale?

Susanne,

First, no the filly is not for sale.

Second, I agree that the customer is always right, but I still wanted to show that at least up our way, our horses get just too hairy to really be able to tell what they look like. I am sure in other warmer parts of the country, one can still see some conformation.

Do I feel that they are ignorant, inexperienced or disrespectful of my knowledge and years of showing at Nationals and World. No. They do have a right to ask for those pictures. But, I really do feel that no one will be able to tell what they are looking at, even if I had set her up in full show pose and taken pictures at all angles. Again, the reason why I take summer pictures.

Will I continue to send out hairy pictures to those who want them, probably. Will they sell with the hairy pictures, probably not.

 

[Royal Crescent]

I found this thread very interesting, but was somewhat dismayed to find that instead of the lighter responses about who could, or couldn't tell if this was a prettier filly under the winter woolies, it became more an argument about who can tell about conformation, with or without the coat. So I would say lighten up, and don't take things so personally. I want to add my congratulations to Matt for his top ten at the Worlds in showmanship. That is a class that I don't think I would do well in. Well done!

Barb

 

[maestoso]

Thanks Barb, I appreciate it. People don't realize how much work it takes to do well in that class. You and your horse have to be a very accurate and precise team. Hours and hours of training . . . . Anyone who hasn't done it(and done well in it) probably will never understand the work it takes to do it. I love the halter classes too, but showmanship is more than just standing there and looking pretty, and more training involved than teaching your horse to stand there and perk their ears up. Again, not dissing halter, I show in that too, but as someone who has done both, Showmanship is much more involved. However i will give credit to those who do exceptional in halter, that certainly takes a lot of quality breeding, my showmanship horse doesn't have to have outstanding conformation. But the negative connotation showmanship has really surprises me, especially when sometimes it's coming from people who fully support say, the solid color class, a class that is judged 80% on pure genetic luck, and shiny grooming supplies. Although, I don't show in that class, so maybe I don't understand the work and training that goes into it

 

[Royal Crescent]

Now Matt, this is exactly what I did not want to see. The thank-you was fine and appreciated, but then you got into digging at others. I have read through this thread and have seen nothing putting showmanship down. I only saw a congrats to you. Take it as such please. You should be proud, I know I was and it doesn't matter what class it is. They are achievements, hard worked for. I for one enjoyed many classes at the World show. I saw Sue Brooks win her class against about 30, and with at least 10 trainers in there and it was awesome. If I had known you were there, I would have cheered you on too. I got to know a lot of people there and it was great. Hope you had a good time too.

Barb

 

[RockRiverTiff]

It's interesting to see where this thread has gone.

I was one of the ones that said that to some extent I can see conformation through hair, but even so I'll readily admit it's just an opinion. In regards to judging my own fuzzy horses I could just as easily be seeing the horse I know is underneath. I thought of this thread again two nights ago when my yearling filly came in out of the rain, and I was shocked to see how much of what I thought was her was actually hair. Should be another interesting clip.

I wish I could stay totally on-topic, but I have to say I find the solid color comment a bit startling. Aren't all show horses really just "pure genetic luck, and shiny grooming supplies?" While I think everyone will agree a halter title is more impressive than a color title in the breeding shed, no one goes to the World or National shows just to prove their horse is a pretty color. Take a look at this and previous years' top color horses, and almost always you will find they are also top halter horses. That 20% of conformation also weighs in pretty heavily in a class of 20-30+ outstanding horses. It takes a VERY good looking horse to catch a judge's eye in those classes. While I fully respect the work it takes for a handler to look good in a showmanship class, I think people should take into consideration the months of excellent care it takes to make a horse look good in a color class. Ever tried to get a blue sheen on a true black horse or that rosy glow that seems to emanate from the white on a pink-skinned pinto? Doesn't happen overnight.

 

[maestoso]

Rock River Tiff, I think any title is impressive, even those attained with only 1 or 2 exhibitors in the class. You missed my point, and that's ok,