Color Question Perlino vs Cremello

[Candice]

Hi I haven't been on in a very long time. We were blessed with a beautiful colt born on the 12th. At first I thought he was a palomino pinto. He's a beautiful shade of light gold. Lots of chrome, big blaze and two blue eyes. His mane is snow white. His tail is white with gold hairs. Yesterday when I got his blanket off and got him out in the sunshine I discovered he's pink skinned all over. Not a palomino. His sire is our wonderful palomino pinto stallion Marystowns Explosive Echo and his Dam is a buckskin pinto. Its really hard to get a picture depicting his color. In the barn I keep getting a yellow tint to my photos and outside he looks white and he's not. My picture files are too large so I can't get one posted. He is on my facebook page (Candice Forthofer). I have a wonderful book on color but he doesn't mee the characteristics completely for either one. I'd lean towards cremello because of the mane being white. Any ideas???? What is the best way to distinguish between the two??

 

[chandab]

What is the best way to distinguish between the two??

DNA color testing... Its the only way to be sure of the color. Don't forget smokey cream is also an option (double cream on black). Although with looking palomino, I'd guess cremello; but to be sure color test.

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

Does he have light colored/blue eyes? I believe that with a cremello or perlino you have to have the light eyes. Our little palomino has almost a pumpkin-y colored skin, not really pink. It will be interesting to see what he is!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

He could be either Perlino or Cremello, or even a pale Palomino, there is no way to tell without testing him, which will cost you the princely sum of $25.00 and tell you for sure!!

Even with blue eyes he could still be Palomino as quite a few, especially Pintos, do nowadays, unfortunately, have blue eyes.

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

Cremello is double cream genes on a red based coat and they will have blue eyes and a white mane and tail. The coat is very light in color and may appear to be white, but is not. Its like a double palomino.

Perlino however is double cream genes on a bay based coat, like a double buckskin. instead of the white mane and tail of the cremello, they will have a dark mane and tail and blue eyes. They may also show darker 'points' in a rust or orange hue.

Smokey cream will be a double cream gene on a black based coat, and will have blue eyes, but the entire coat (and mane and tail) will have a rusty/orange hue

All three dilutes will have pink skin, so my guess is that your guy is a cremello

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

There are two types of blue eyes as well though. A 'paint" colored blue and the double cream blue. The paint blue is very bright, solid color and the cream blue can have spots of darker blue in them, and can even be green or amber colored. One of the most strikingly beautiful horses I have seen was a perlino AQHA stallion, he had bright green eyes. I just couldn't stop looking at him!

 

[Miniv]

It is often very difficult to distinguish the difference between perlino and cremello without testing.

The differences can be very subtle, such as the perlino's mane and tail will be OFF White or cream and where a buckskin would have points, a perlino will look like their legs are dirty or yellowish. Both perlino and cremello have blue eyes and pink skin.

 

[targetsmom]

GypsyMoonMinis that was a very helpful explanation for someone like me who gets these colors confused! But I am still confused about what test(s) to run when Rabbitfizz says you can find out for $25. Wouldn't you need to test for red/black, agouti and even cream if you suspect the foal could possibly be palomino? So either 2 or 3 tests???

ETA: and I see he might be pinto, so to be absolutely sure what color/pattern he is you would need to add tobiano or LWO???

 

[ruffian]

"My picture files are too large so I can't get one posted. " You can use whatever photo program you have to reduce the photos, save them, and then upload them to a site like Photobucket and you should be able to post them here.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Very quick "Colour 101"

There are only two colours in horses....Red and Black.

Everything else is a modifier, a dilute or a pattern, on top of one or both of those colours.

Black can "mask" Red.

Red cannot "mask" Black.

Agouti is a modifier that makes Black into Bay.

If you test for Black and Agouti you will know what he is as you already know he is CrCr (Two doses of Cream)[OK, should say we are assuming he is CrCr!!!]

Black is dominant over Red, so if he has Black + Agouti (the modifier that causes black to be bay) he is Perlino.

If he has Black alone, without Agouti, he is Smoky Cream.

If he does not have black you must assume Red and he will be Cremello.

It makes absolutely NO difference what a Cream horse looks like, visually it is impossible to tell whether he is Perlino, Smoky Cream or Cremello.

To make matters worse (or better!!) he could also have Silver and that would not show, either!!

Initially, if you test for Black and Agouti that will tell you what base CrCr he is.

Then, if there is a chance he has something else, you can test for that, too.

Pattern wise there are at present only tests for Tobiano, Frame OLWS, and one sort of Sabino.

It is always a good idea to test for Frame if you think an animal is Pinto.

Oops, sorry, forgot there is a chance he is palomino....ugh, this is adding up, OK, maybe test for Cream as well, but I actually think, from your description, he may be CrCr.

We really do need those pictures....if you want you can e-mail them to me and I will sort them out for you??

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, sorry, the last post is confusing, I shall attempt to simplify:

If you test for Black, if there is Black present he cannot be Cremello, and he can't be Palomino, either.

Add to that test for Agouti as, without Agouti he cannot be Perlino. (Perlino is CrCr + Black + Agouti. OK??)....stay with me.....I see your eyes glassing over.....

So, CrCr + Black = Smoky Cream

CrCr + Red= Cremello.

CrCr + Black + Agouti =Perlino.

Agouti does not show on Red, neither does Silver.

So CrCr + Red + Agouti would still be Cremello.

If he tested negative for Black he would have, by default, to be Red.

Is that any clearer??

 

[Miniequine]

Agouti does not show on Red, neither does Silver.So CrCr + Red + Agouti would still be Cremello.

If he tested negative for Black he would have, by default, to be Red.

Interesting... For some reason,, I thought if a Cremello carries agouti.. it is a perlino. mmm

my Palomino filly, tested red & agouti..... She is genetically a bay.. but visibly palomino..

with very dark legs and head....

So.. a bay is not a bay unless it is visible? hehehe endlessly interesting...

)

 

[Candice]

Holy Cow!! Jane I'm going to email you the pictures. If it helps his Sire is a tobiano palomino pinto and his dam is a blue eyed sooty buckskin tobiiano pinto mare.

My brain is frazzled.

 

[chandab]

Interesting... For some reason,, I thought if a Cremello carries agouti.. it is a perlino. mmm
my Palomino filly, tested red & agouti..... She is genetically a bay.. but visibly palomino..

with very dark legs and head....

So.. a bay is not a bay unless it is visible? hehehe endlessly interesting...

)

Agouti only works on black (black plus agouti = bay); therefore a red only carries agouti (doesn't show and dosen't act on red, as there is no black to act on), so your filly is genetically a palomino that carries agouti (so she can produce bay/buckskins/etc when bred to black-based stallions). Hope this helps a little.

And, being bay doesn't necessarily have to be "visible"; I have a silver bay (black+agouti+silver) mare that looks dark palomino (if you don't know what silver does, you'd swear she was palomino).

 

[targetsmom]

Red based horses (chestnut, palomino, cremello,....) can HIDE agouti and silver which won't show with the red base but can be passed on to offspring.

And don't forget that buckskin is black + agouti + one cream... not to be confused with a palomino hiding agouti (who is red + agouti + one cream)!!! Yep, it is confusing.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes, I think I did say that Agouti does not show on Red??

Nor Silver??

So a Palomino carrying Agouti is exactly that.

As is a Cremello carrying Agouti....just a Cremello carrying Agouti.

Come on, people, catch up here!!!

Taps foot and waits..........

And Tobiano does not carry blue eyes.........

Oh, I think I am going now!

 

[Miniequine]

very entertaining... I DO understand.. I just think it is funny

How come a smokey black is called a smokey black.. even if it looks black? Because

ya know it carries Cream?? funny

My palomino filly IS a bay.. you just can't see it.

My Red Pinto IS silver, you just can't see it.

Just like a smokeyblack. It is Black and it IS a cream carrier,, you just can't see it.

funny, but it IS called a smokey black.

Is it that you call it ONLY what you can see or what it truely is??

interesting!

"And, being bay doesn't necessarily have to be "visible"; I have a silver bay (black+agouti+silver) mare that looks dark palomino (if you don't know what silver does, you'd swear she was palomino)"

see.... My filly IS bay.. you just can't SEE it!

 

[chandab]

"And, being bay doesn't necessarily have to be "visible"; I have a silver bay (black+agouti+silver) mare that looks dark palomino (if you don't know what silver does, you'd swear she was palomino)"
see.... My filly IS bay.. you just can't SEE it!

Still not exactly... Agouti is a modifying gene that only modifies black, so if it only works on black, then only black based horses can be bay (buckskin, etc, must be black-based to start with). Your filly carries the agouti gene, but with nothing to modify (no black base), she is only a carrier. Whereas, my filly is black-based plus agouti, so bay; but then you add silver which washes out black (to varying degrees) and you get silver bay (just happens that her silver really washed out her black markings, they are silvery colored and don't show well in most pictures - anyone who knows silver knows right away she is silver bay, but to those who aren't used to silver, they see palomino). [Oh, and to add to her color confusion, she is also dun, so that also affects what her color looks like.]

 

[Tenltraining]

This is our perlino stallion, Ten Ls Destiny IN The Buff. I think you can see he has slightly darker legs and mane is not totally white, but I wasnt really sure, so we tested him and he is perlino. His dam is a palamino pinto but his sire is Alvadars Double Destiny, who is buckskin. At one time I thought the perlinos would not show well but this stallion has changed my mind, LOL, and proved me wrong.

He has done extremely well this year with 12 supremes or champion of champions!

I think the dilutes are really getting more popular and I cant wait to see his foals. IT will be interesting to see also what colors we get as I bred him to a variety of color of mares! I love the buckskins a lot so hopefully I might end up with a few.

But I would test your horse and then you will know what color his is for sure, its really interesting to find out that information!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

He is very smart, and SO clean!!

I hate the idea of having to ever show an animal this colour again, I really do!

But, on this matter of colour, I have seen tested Cremellos exactly the same visual colour as this.

It really is only possible to guess, as you did, and back it up by testing.

The guesswork is still valid as it gives you an idea what to test for.

The Sorrel/Palomino carrying Agouti is just that.

It is not Bay.

Bay is Black based.

Sorrel + Agouti is just that....only, of course, they are now able to test for it so you know whether your Sorrel is carrying Agouti.

Again, there is no way of knowing without testing.