Color Question Perlino vs Cremello

[GypsyMoonMinis]

Interesting... For some reason,, I thought if a Cremello carries agouti.. it is a perlino. mmm

Your right

Two base coats colors. Red and Black (red would also be chestnut)

Agouti is the bay modifier. Agouti on Red has no affect, Agouti on Black creates bay

Cream is a dilute. 1 Cream on red creates a palamino. 1 Cream on black creates a smokey black. 1 Cream on bay would create a buckskin. (essentially the buckskin has both 1 cream and 1 agouti)

2 Cream on Red creates Cremello. 2 cream on Black creates Smokey Cream. 2 Cream on bay creates Perlino (essentially 2 cream and 1 agouti)

Its easy to tell them apart if you look closely. Cremello will have a cream body and lighter mane and tail and NO point color (IE The legs will be the same color as the body). Perlino will pink skin and have a darker mane and tail than the body and POINTS. (the legs will be darker than the body) Period. PLUS its easy to tell a Pale palomino from a cremello: Cremello has a definate pink skin and speckle blue eyes. Palomino will have darker skin and IF blue eyes are present, they will be a solid blue.

From my research Cremello does not have an agouti modifier. If it did it would be a perlino.

Perhaps it is possible that a cremello horse would carry an agouti modifier, but not show it, as it is a dormant gene. The color that is showing on the horse would be the color it 'is', but has the potential to pass on an agouti modifer because they simply carry it. Does that make sense? regardless, whats makes the Cremello SHOW is 2 ACTIVE cream dilutes on Red (or chestnut), what would make the horse perlino would be 2 ACTIVE creams PLUS the active agouti modifier on essentially a black base horse, because agouti has no affect on red base.

 

[Barbie]

It's going to be interesting to see what color he turns out. I was over there yesterday and at this point think he is a palomino pinto. His color seems to be darkening from what it was in pictures. Who knows - these minis are so difficult. Boy breeding Persian cats was a lot easier colorwise - I could put a male with a female and know exactly what 2-6 colors were possible.

No matter what color he is, he is a pretty sharp little baby at this point - so refined and all legs!!

Barbie

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Interesting... For some reason,, I thought if a Cremello carries agouti.. it is a perlino. mmm

I am not quite sure how this got to be quoted as something I said, but, I assure you, it is a long time since I have made such a basic mistake....

Your right

Two base coats colors. Red and Black (red would also be chestnut)

Agouti is the bay modifier. Agouti on Red has no affect, Agouti on Black creates bay

Cream is a dilute. 1 Cream on red creates a palomino. 1 Cream on black creates a smokey black. 1 Cream on bay would create a buckskin. (essentially the buckskin has both 1 cream and 1 agouti)

2 Cream on Red creates Cremello. 2 cream on Black creates Smokey Cream. 2 Cream on bay creates Perlino (essentially 2 cream and 1 agouti)

Its easy to tell them apart if you look closely. Cremello will have a cream body and lighter mane and tail and NO point color (IE The legs will be the same color as the body). Perlino will pink skin and have a darker mane and tail than the body and POINTS. (the legs will be darker than the body) Period. PLUS its easy to tell a Pale palomino from a cremello: Cremello has a definite pink skin and speckle blue eyes. Palomino will have darker skin and IF blue eyes are present, they will be a solid blue.

From my research Cremello does not have an agouti modifier. If it did it would be a perlino.

Perhaps it is possible that a cremello horse would carry an agouti modifier, but not show it, as it is a dormant gene. The color that is showing on the horse would be the color it 'is', but has the potential to pass on an agouti modifier because they simply carry it. Does that make sense? regardless, whats makes the Cremello SHOW is 2 ACTIVE cream dilutes on Red (or chestnut), what would make the horse perlino would be 2 ACTIVE creams PLUS the active agouti modifier on essentially a black base horse, because agouti has no affect on red base.

Sorry but no, I have to disagree.

I do not believe that it is possible to tell a Cremello from a Perlino by sight, that is why people test them!!!

Or, for that matter, either one from a Smoky Cream.

The very best you can ever do is guess correctly.

Since there is a test, though, there seems little point in guessing at something you can know for sure.

Cremello carrying an Agouti modifier would be Cremello....carrying an Agouti modifier...please stop confusing the issue here.

Agouti has NO effect of Red, that is the end of it. So it cannot affect Cremello .

Cremello + Agouti would, in no way shape or form, be Perlino.

Perlino is CrCr + Agouti + BLACK!!!

Agouti is not a dormant gene, it is a colour modifier, one that doe not show on Red.

That is all.

 

[rubyviewminis]

I need more coffee to go back and really read this. But so far it has clarified my two bay pintos. I have a bay pinto mare that tested nT for Tobiano, and Ee for red/black, nn cream, her Sire is a red dun pinto, and her Dam is a smutty buckskin. I also have a young bay pinto stallion who tested nT for Tobiano, Ea for red/black, nn cream. His Dam is a buckskin pinto, his Sire is a palomino pinto. I have been meaning to really study this because it is so interesting, but now I don't know what else would be good to test for.Yes I know that the test results mean and am waiting for summer to see if she has a dorsal stripe, countershading, or nothing along the darker line down her back, it is pretty wide.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have a bay pinto mare that tested NT for Tobiano, and I for red/black, nn cream, her Sire is a red dun pinto, and her Dam is a smutty buckskin.

So, to clarify for those that do not know, she is Heterozygous for Tobiano (which of course does not preclude her having all and every other pattern, did you test for LWO??) She is Black base, hiding Red ...ie Heterozygous for Black.... no Cream. She may or may not have inherited Dun?? Or is she clearly a visual Bay, no Dun?? She could have inherited Agouti from her sire or dam.

I also have a young bay pinto stallion who tested NT for Tobiano, Ea for red/black, nn cream. His Dam is a buckskin pinto, his Sire is a palomino pinto.

This animal is h/Z for Tobiano (again LWO status?) h/Z for Black. No Cream.

He could have inherited Agouti from his sire or dam, but, since he has inherited no Cream he, like the animal above, is Bay base, not Buckskin.

 

[kimie28]

Posting pictures for Candace of her little guy in question

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, now I just do not know!!

He looks dark enough to be Palomino, and with that broad blaze his eyes could definitely be from the pinto, so I would really advise testing.

 

[Candice]

Kim, thankyou very much for getting Strikers pictures up for me. To make matters more interesting his gold is darkening every day. His white markings jump right out now where two days ago you had to search to see them. I think the only way to know is to have him tested. Yes, his Dam is blue eyed. Thankyou again Kim!!!!!

 

[ohmt]

He's beautiful!

I think you're definitely going to have to test him now! Because he's pinto and his dam likely passed along splash, he could either be a palomino pinto (with splash) or a double dilute pinto. Test him for cream, red factor, and agouti...and then let us know the results

 

[disneyhorse]

I'm going to throw my guess in the ring... Smokey Cream. He sure could be a palomino though!!!

Have him tested and let us all know!!!

Andrea

 

[Little Hooves]

The skin around the eye looks like it's pink, and if he were a palomino, by now, it would have turned black. I definitely think he is a double-dilute. To me, he's likely a smoky black. I would test for the following genes just to make sure:

black, agouti.

If he tests positive for black, you KNOW he is a double dilute. And agouti would just determine whther he is a perlino. Now, if he came back negative for black, he would be a cremello - I kinda doubt he is palomino. But you can always opt to test for cream just to be sure.

But, looks like a double dilute to me, mostly because of the pink skin around the eye and I don't see any white markings over the eyes that would do that. Also, since both parents are pinto, maybe you want to see if he's homozygous for tobiano, too

Brenda

 

[Dona]

very entertaining... I DO understand.. I just think it is funnyHow come a smokey black is called a smokey black.. even if it looks black? Because

ya know it carries Cream?? funny

My palomino filly IS a bay.. you just can't see it.

My Red Pinto IS silver, you just can't see it.

Just like a smokeyblack. It is Black and it IS a cream carrier,, you just can't see it.

funny, but it IS called a smokey black.

Is it that you call it ONLY what you can see or what it truely is??

interesting!

"And, being bay doesn't necessarily have to be "visible"; I have a silver bay (black+agouti+silver) mare that looks dark palomino (if you don't know what silver does, you'd swear she was palomino)"

see.... My filly IS bay.. you just can't SEE it!

Yes....colors can be quite interesting. But if you want to be "technical" & correct (which many of us color fanatics do)

people need to use the proper terms.

Your "Silver Bay" filly may LOOK like a Palomino....but she is not if she is a Silver Bay. To call her Palomino is misleading. She is simply a light Silver Bay (by your own description) and should be called as such.

Along the same lines, your red pinto is not a "Silver" just because she carries that gene.....she is simply a Chestnut who carries the Silver gene.

IMO you should always lable (describe) a horse's color by what they "genetically" are....not simply by the way they look, because as we all know....that can be very misleading, and downright wrong!

 

[ohmt]

I definitely agree with Dona-people need to stop making up their own colors and calling their horses what they are.

I have a mare that looks palomino-what do I call her?

A silver red dun

I have a filly that looks like a chestnut pinto-what do I call her?

A silver bay pinto

I know what both of them are because of 1.)their visual appearance 2.) knowing the colors of their sires and dams 3.) colors of progeny (in the silver red dun mares case)

A palomino filly with the agouti gene is NOT a bay. She is a red based horse with the cream and agouti genes. A bay MUST have black. A palomino must NOT have black.

Along the same lines, your red pinto is not a "Silver" just because she carries that gene.....she is simply a Chestnut who carries the Silver gene.

I disagree with this-if a horse carries the silver gene, then it is definitely a silver even if it doesn't show up. That's just like with the smokey blacks-you don't see the cream gene, but they are still labelled as having such. My chestnut tovero stallion has the silver gene and I always tell people he is a silver chestnut because he passes it on to most of his foals-I want people to be aware that he does possess it and he likes to use it!

 

[bannerminis]

This is a picture of my colt Sunny who is Chestnut with Flaxen and some sort of Sabino going on although tested negative for SB1.

He also tested positive for 1 copy of Silver and is homozygous Bay but he is still chestnut NOT a Silver Bay

Before he was clipped last yr

After his clip

 

[chandab]

Your "Silver Bay" filly may LOOK like a Palomino....but she is not if she is a Silver Bay. To call her Palomino is misleading. She is simply a light Silver Bay (by your own description) and should be called as such.

Since i have tested her, I have referred to her as silver bay to anyone that knows colors, but to a few I know that don't know anything about silver, I call her the dark palomino, or they don't know which horse I'm referring to as they don't have a clue was silver is.