Color question

[iowa]

I bought a mare last summer,registered as a cremello. She was bred to a red roan stallion. Today she had this filly. I thought it was buckskin until I saw the tail, which is not black. Can buckskins be born with a tail that will turn black later?

I looked on the AMHA studbook to see what colors she could possibly be. Her sire was sired by a pinto sorrel and dam was a red roan, so that is probably correct.

Her dam, the cremello, was sired by a buckskin and out of a solid brown mare. So how could you get cremello out of that? This mare is definitely white with blue eyes, but I would guess she was perlino, not cremello. And the cremello's brown dam, must be a smoky black or something. I guess I will do some DNA tests to determine what she really is, although it really doesn't matter. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

I added more pictures on page 2.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I would bet she will be a dun. But yes...the tail can turn dark later. Almost all of my black foals have silver color in their tail at birth...but they end up solid black. Congratulations on your new filly.

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

View attachment 1609View attachment 1610I bought a mare last summer,registered as a cremello. She was bred to a red roan stallion. Today she had this filly. I thought it was buckskin until I saw the tail, which is not black. Can buckskins be born with a tail that will turn black later?

I looked on the AMHA studbook to see what colors she could possibly be. Her sire was sired by a pinto sorrel and dam was a red roan, so that is probably correct.

Her dam, the cremello, was sired by a buckskin and out of a solid brown mare. So how could you get cremello out of that? This mare is definitely white with blue eyes, but I would guess she was perlino, not cremello. And the cremello's brown dam, must be a smoky black or something. I guess I will do some DNA tests to determine what she really is, although it really doesn't matter. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

Your mare could actually be a perlino and it could be a buckskin. I had a mare registered as a cremello that was actually a perlino. The foal cannot be a dun unless one of the parents are dun.

 

[Tremor]

What an odd color.

Could the foal have silver?

Do you have anymore pictures of your mare?

Congrats!

 

[SNDFarms]

I see some pretty dark undertones on this little one.. Can you post a pic of Nose, Hoof, and eyelashes?

She is adorable whatever color she is, Congrats..

 

[ohmt]

I agree with Mini Gaits in that I think she has dun. Maybe a smokey grulla or silver smokey grulla? A double dilute could easily hide dun and silver. I bet the mare is perlino or smokey cream and her dam was silver smokey black or smokey black and not brown. You'll know more once the foal fuzz comes off and even then you might need to test

Congrats on your pretty foal!

 

[Jill]

I do not think she is dun because I see NO indication of dun factor, including no dorsal stripe. A dorsal stripe would be very visible on a dun foal, even on a double dilute dun foal, and this foal has no visual dun factor at all.

While your mare could carry dun and it not show well or at all on an adult double dilute, again the foal shows no indication of being dun. Very frequently the colors on papers are not correct, or not fully correct (ie buckskin could be buckskin dun, grey may really be silver dapple, sorrel may really be silver bay and on and on).

To me, your foal looks silver buckskin (and really cute!).

Congratulations on her

 

[ohmt]

My silver grulla foals have been born with no dorsal-in fact the dorsal was never very visible even later.

 

[Jill]

We've had so many dun foals and even our dun factor double dilute foals have a very visible dorsal.

It's not record setting at all, but we have 11 dun horses and have had or known all since birth. All had visible dun factor from day one. I see absolutely nothing at all about the (very cute) filly that would indicate she carries dun.

My checklist regarding dun: dorsal stripe (no), shoulder bars (no), leg stripes (no), edged ears (possibly... but present in many non-dun foals, too), darker head (no), cobwebbing on forehead (no).

 

[ohmt]

Any silver duns? I was just throwing it out there as a possibility. Not saying that's what I absolutely believe the foal is. Just a maybe.

Here is a silver grulla filly that was born the OP filly's exact color-she didn't darken up until the baby fuzz came off-i thought for sure she was a palomino for a while and that her dam was hiding cream somehow. She never did get a definite dorsal-it was very faint in late summer. These pictures aren't the best, but you can see her creamy color and few dun indicators.

Her dam is a silver red dun and she also has no dorsal or barring or cobwebbing.

 

[Jill]

Are they color tested positive for dun? In the 1st and 3rd pictures, it looks like there is a dorsal on your foal (?).

Like a broken record, but there's just no visible evidence that the foal the OP posted carries dun.

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I have seen several dun foals born without dorsal stripes...etc. I am only guessing...but she sure does look dun to me. If she is, of course, her mane and tail will never be really black...but more brown in color. She is a cute little girl.

 

[ohmt]

Yes tested for dun. In late summer she had a faint dorsal, yes. But before she shed the foal fuzz (of course I have no pics before then as it was pre-digital cam for me) she was identical to the OP's foal.

I just saw the dark tinge in the OP foal and thought i'd throw it out there as a possibility

 

[Jill]

I dunno, ladies. I think I've seen a lot of non-dun horses that some people think are dun

Some reading: http://www.grullablu...or_markings.htm

"But as horses shed their foals coats, it should become more readily apparent if they carry the dun factor trait or not. Photos below show some of the dun factor traits to look for. Not all dun-factored horses will have all traits, but in my experience, all of them have had the CLEAN and CRISP dorsal stripe and the ear tips."

And: http://www.ultimateh...dunfactors.html

"This (dorsal stripe) is the essential dun factor, as every dun has it. If a horse lacks this, then it is not a dun. The dorsal stripe is a dark stripe running from the poll to the dock of the tail. It shows up along the horse's spine. Usually the center of the mane and tail will be darker, too, because of the stripe running through it."

ohmt -- See, I thought that your filly "without a dorsal" did actually really have one! It has been faint on some of our foals, too, but it's always been there if they are dun.

 

[iowa]

Here is a picture of the foals dam. I'll need a couple days to get more of the foal's hooves. Also, here is a picture closer up of the foals nose.

 

[ohmt]

Yes she had a dorsal-a faint one, but it was not there when she was born. The silver that she had along with the dun I believe was the culprit as to why she did not have crisp clear dun factors. Same with her dam. Had they not had the silver i'm sure the dorsals would have been much more prominant.

Her dam and herself were tested heterozygous dun, heterozygous silver, no cream.

 

[ohmt]

Iowa-your filly is absolutely adorable! I do believe your mare is double dilute so the foal for sure has cream. I would not rule out silver or dun just yet though. Double dilutes are good at hiding things

 

[Jill]

ohmt, on your filly, I saw her dorsal just in the pictures you posted to demostrate the lack of a dorsal. Both on her thick foal coat and when she was shed off slick.

I don't really "care" what color the foal in question is. She's cute no matter what, but I like to see colors correctly identified and explained so people understand. Most of us know how notoriously mis-identified mini colors are when it comes to papers and advertising. Just trying to give my insight for whatever it is or isn't worth (and hey, I'm not charging for it LOL!)

 

[ohmt]

Yes, she had a faint dorsal when all slicked up

in the fuzzy pics I think that's mostly the creamy winter fuzz against the darker undercoat. It's been years, but i just remember how sure i was she was palomino up until she shed. I guess it's hard to show anything when I only a few pictures though.

Iowa-i hope you'll post more pictures as your little one grows up!

 

[iowa]

Iowa-i hope you'll post more pictures as your little one grows up!

I will and I will also let you know what the DNA results are. I'll probably get her tested for black/red, Agouti (do we know if she already has that since her ears are tipped in black?), and maybe silver and dun. I think several places in her background the colors were not reported correctly so maybe we can get her genotype determined. I might get the mare tested, too. I am going to ask the breeders for a picture of the stallion, too. With him being a roan, there is a possiblity she is a buckskin roan. Thanks everyone.