Conformation questions on my new girl!

[ohmt]

I'm with dreaminmini -- I saw no offense taken, only people other than the OP discussing various perspectives on what exactly "cow-hocked" means. I've found it to be one of the more interesting discussions of late. Somebody disagreeing (or discussing different takes on the issue) with your critique is not the same as taking offense.
Whether asking for or giving a critique, one must be prepared for varying opinions.

I don't believe KayKay was saying anyone had been mean. What she meant was that it's hard to give an honest opinion on these types of threads because many people misconstrue and think others are trying to be mean even if they aren't. There is a lot of sugar coating and dancing around certain points.

 

[susanne]

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HUH??

Okay, there's obviously something here I'm not seeing, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Katiean]

As for being slightly cow hocked, you look for that in a driving horse, have your farrier work on that she is still young. Also teach her to allow you to push her hocks out when standing still. I think she is very pretty, congratulations

She may or may not be cow hocked. I have a stallion that his first 2 years stood cow hocked. If you watched him walk he did not walk that way. He was/is very lazy and was just sloppy about the way he stood. I did work with him a bit on the way he stood and he doesn't stand cow hocked any more. I think you need to watch her walk from behind to see if she is indeed cow hocked. Just my two cents.

 

[Blackwater Farm]

I have to agree with KayKay. It is hard to give conformation advise without people getting upset.

but, here I go...

She has a nice short back but she has no rear/ hip. She is narrow in both the front and the rear, but she is only a yearling. Hips will spread as she gets older which will help with the cowhock look. I do not think that the front will get all that broad when she matures though and in this picture she is toed out. She is very heavy in the shoulder and her neck comes out from between her chest, which gives the loaded shoulder look. She also has a straight shoulder.

Hopefully you do not take offense to this, but the only way to learn, is if someone gives you an honest answer.

I would like to see her when she is clipped, it will give one a better idea of what she will look like. Hairy horses can give some illusions.

You should still have fun showing her and learning how to show and learning about conformation as you show. As you go along and ask more question, you will be able to see some of the faults in yours and others horses.

Saying that, no horse is perfect and as breeders we try to correct the faults of our horses. I can easily tear apart every one of my horses and do. Always striving to breed better.

Good luck with her and have some fun.

I want everyone to know that I take no offense to any of this. I posted this because I really wanted some honest oppinions from real miniature horse owners and breeders! I know she has faults and I just wanted some feedback as to weather or not what I was seeing was accurate. Sometimes its hard to look at a horse you care for and see everyday and really pick them apart. Like I said I have never owned a yearling before so I wasnt sure what she may possibly grow out of or mature into. I appreciate the honesty and keep it coming as I am trying to absorb all this wonderful knowledge!!! I want to thank you Riverdance and KayKay and others and know that I would never take offense in someone being honest with me, especially when your trying to give me advice that I asked for. Don't worry ladies I brought my big girl panties!!! I plan to have a good time showing her no matter what, she is very sweet and extremely smart and like someone said, there are always the obstacle classes! I will get her all clipped down shortly and post more pics then. Thanks again everyone and keep it coming!

 

[dreaminmini]

.

HUH??

Okay, there's obviously something here I'm not seeing, so I'll leave it at that.

I didn't see anything offensive or mean. Or anyone taking offence. If someone asked the question they have to be prepared for the answer. There is nice ways of saying things and the answers seem genuine and true in their comments. Everyone made valid if differing opinions. If there is some other meaning I missed it too.

 

[dreaminmini]

I want everyone to know that I take no offense to any of this. I posted this because I really wanted some honest oppinions from real miniature horse owners and breeders! I know she has faults and I just wanted some feedback as to weather or not what I was seeing was accurate. Sometimes its hard to look at a horse you care for and see everyday and really pick them apart. Like I said I have never owned a yearling before so I wasnt sure what she may possibly grow out of or mature into. I appreciate the honesty and keep it coming as I am trying to absorb all this wonderful knowledge!!! I want to thank you Riverdance and KayKay and others and know that I would never take offense in someone being honest with me, especially when your trying to give me advice that I asked for. Don't worry ladies I brought my big girl panties!!! I plan to have a good time showing her no matter what, she is very sweet and extremely smart and like someone said, there are always the obstacle classes! I will get her all clipped down shortly and post more pics then. Thanks again everyone and keep it coming!

You have a nice horse, she is a cutie. Have fun with her.

I like seeing everyone's horses and the willingness to let them be evaluated. It is interesting and a way to learn. I am always trying to teach my eye and us being humans we all have some subjective views on what may be correct and what we like.

Like I said, this thread has been interesting, opinions voiced without being mean and you didn't take offence. I think people have told you the truth in a polite way. It's a good thread. Maybe I will throw one of mine up here next.

 

[bannerminis]

I think your filly looks a little backward and with proper care and feeding she may improve to where things dont look as severe. If she wasnt fed properly in those first months it could explain a lot.

I worked with TB's and have seen very gangly yearlings that looked all over the place and couldnt run a straight line if they tried but as 3 - 4 yr olds were unrecognisable.

There are faults there at the moment but time, feeding and maturing could work wonders for her. I think its a case of wait and see. You love her and will have fun with her and she could ask for nothing more

 

[kaykay]

I have to apologize. I misread a post and took it the wrong way

Sorry hubby is not feeling well so I am a little off right now. Also I am definitely type A so read and type too fast sometimes.

It is nice to see a conformation thread back again.

I just think in general the miniature community makes too many excuses for faults when sometimes a fault is just a fault. Not due to bad trimming etc. Just is what it is. I have seen so many club footed minis still being bred because they swear its due to bad trimming or no trimming when the horse was young. This is such an inherited fault that you can see it in generation after generation.

In order to breed better we have to be able to be honest and call a spade a spade.

Thank you Blackwater for being so agreeable!

Kay

 

[MiLo Minis]

This is why I say that she needs quite a bit of toe off but is not coonfooted because the angle of her pastern matches her hoof. She has lovely long pasterns but has been allowed to have too much toe lowering the angle of her pastern. Get her toes trimmed which the poster already has and as a yearling she stands a good chance of growing up correctly because the pastern is connected to a joint at the fetlock that can swivel to keep her pastern lined up. The long toes have allowed the tendons on the back of the leg to stretch but with good trimming and exercise they should come back. I can't see the right leg from the side in the photos so can't say for sure about the right foot but from what I can see her toe is even longer on that foot and from the behind photo it looks like her fetlock is lower yet on that side to match the longer toe so I would assume that she is the same on that leg.

The sad fact of the matter is that a lot of leg conformation problems can be attributed to poor farrier care particularly with Minis.

This is what I was talking about in my earlier post about her front legs. You can see that the left front leg is straight and correct although toeing out slightly. As she develops muscle between her front legs that will correct but the right front angles away at the fetlock and that is bone structure that won't change, the pastern is crooked from the joint, but again good farrier care will help to minimize that.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Yes, cow-hocked is a term commonly misconstrued as close-set hocks...but they are NOT the same thing at all. Cow-hocks are as seen here, the hocks closer to each other than the pasterns...close-set hocks, are what the draught folks are particularly interested in producing. In this, the hocks and pasterns are the same distance from each other, but the legs are straight.

That is absolutely true.

However I wasn't referring to close-set hocks but rather the misconception often presented in 4-H conformation books that a perfectly straight hind leg, i.e. one where the hock points straight backwards during movement, is "correct." It is not. The horse must be built so it can swing the hind leg in and forward during a stride as the stifle must be able to rotate outwards to clear the bulk of the barrel. Anyone who has ridden at a trot behind another horse knows what I mean. The horse should stand straight but rotate the hock inward in the air. A tendency to stand with the hind legs pointing slightly inwards is sometimes incorrectly called "cowhocks" when it really is not and I was suggesting that when people say "Cowhocks are good for driving" that might be what they meant.

Another poster mentioned having a stallion who stood like he was cowhocked but really wasn't. I've personally noticed this tendency in horses with stifle problems and it's interesting to me how much straighter my own gelding stood after his stifle surgery. He's still cowhocked, no question about it, but he used to stand hunched with his hocks almost rubbing and his pasterns and stifles pointed out from discomfort. Now that he is no longer favoring his stifles he stands with the stifles and thus pasterns pointing forwards and his hocks, by extension, are rotated much further apart than they used to be. The surgery did not fix his conformation, it just fixed his posture which revealed that the conformation fault wasn't as severe as it appeared. (His sickle hocks, short femure and shallow rump were all every bit as bad as they looked but that's another story!

)

The sad fact of the matter is that a lot of leg conformation problems can be attributed to poor farrier care particularly with Minis.

Not to argue semantics, but conformation problems are conformation problems. Poor farrier care can cause otherwise insignifant problems to worsen or create the appearance of problems where there are none, but it does not cause conformation problems. I agree with KayKay on this one.

Leia

 

[RhineStone]

A tendency to stand with the hind legs pointing slightly inwards is sometimes incorrectly called "cowhocks" when it really is not and I was suggesting that when people say "Cowhocks are good for driving" that might be what they meant.

I have said in the past that I don't mind a horse being a little cowhocked for driving, where I probably should have said that I like a little bit of "angularity". Horses that are TOO straight in the hind legs have a "pants full" way of moving that I don't care for. It looks stiff and full of effort. Horses with a bit of angularity (not necessarily as cowhocked as the horse pictured) seem to have a more fluid way of moving.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Post-legged versus well-angulated on a side view could take up entire threads on its own!

Straight from the side is different from straight as in a plumb line dropped through the leg on the rear view.

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

Not to argue semantics, but conformation problems are conformation problems. Poor farrier care can cause otherwise insignifant problems to worsen or create the appearance of problems where there are none, but it does not cause conformation problems. I agree with KayKay on this one.

Leia

I'll argue semantics with you Leia

Horses can be born with structural deformities or true conformation problems BUT they can also quite easily be created in the legs of a young and growing horse by poor farrier care. As the bones and tendons grow and harden all it takes is consistant poor trimming for a foal to develop crooked legs. I personally have seen it many times. IF you get on it and correct it you can over time and with consistant care sometimes take them back to pretty much normal but many times I have seen horses with conformation faults that were definitely caused by poor trimming and I think this filly is in that situation right at the moment.

 

[Minimor]

It's true--bad farrier work, or simply NO farrier work at all, on a young, growing horse CAN cause conformation problems.

I've seen a young filly that was perfectly normal and correct on her hind legs, left to stand in a tie stall in a barn for 18 months--barn wasn't cleaned so the filly was standing in a hole with her front feet and up on a mountain with her hind feet. In those 18 months the filly had no farrier care at all. By the time that filly was removed from that situation she was so crooked on her hind legs that she wasn't worth anything at all to anyone. Very sad. By that point I don't think she could have been corrected with good & freqent farrier care--I'm sure she could have been improved to some extent, but I very much doubt that she would have ever come near to being the horse she could have been with proper care all the way through her first two years.

 

[Blackwater Farm]

This little filly really has had some very poor farrier care. When I brought her home and actually put her on concrete so I could see how long her feet were, I was shocked. She had NO heel and her toes were WAY long. I had my farrier come out as soon as he could that week and he took quite a bit of toe off and said she needs some heel to grow. I saw an insane difference just in the way she was standing when he was finished. I think some of it may be poor conformation because her sire has less than perfect conformation, but then I think she also hasnt been given the proper care and it has just gotten alot worse. Her sire has issues with his front legs being a bit crooked, his front legs angle out from the knee and when I got him he wasnt recieving any farrier care and his toes were long and pointy and flared out on the outside. Now two years later with some hoof supplement and proper farrier care yup his legs still crooked but his feet look a million times better! They dont flare out on the sides anymore, they're nice and round, not pointy and he has heel! So I think that with the same care she may come along well but it will only take her so far. I agree that crappy conformation is just that...crappy conformation. I also am agreeing that it can be worsened and possibly bettered by proper care, it may only be minor, it may be major, you never know until you try! Like I said this is one mare that will not be bred unless all of her conformational faults just melt away with age!!! (Yeah right) Thanks ya'll!

 

[kaykay]

Sounds like she had contracted heels which is very common in foals and yearlings. If you keep working on them you can get them back and when they mature and get weight it helps bring that contraction out. Light foals especially struggle with contracted heels.

 

[Annabellarose]

[snip]but she has no rear/hip.

I just saw/read this thread and I was very, very disappointed to see that this was not mentioned until the 19th post.

:No-Sad

In my opinion, this is her most glaring fault! She has a very small/inadequate engine for pushing her heavy forehand around.

I'll argue semantics with you Leia

Horses can be born with structural deformities or true conformation problems BUT they can also quite easily be created in the legs of a young and growing horse by poor farrier care. As the bones and tendons grow and harden all it takes is consistant poor trimming for a foal to develop crooked legs. I personally have seen it many times. IF you get on it and correct it you can over time and with consistant care sometimes take them back to pretty much normal but many times I have seen horses with conformation faults that were definitely caused by poor trimming and I think this filly is in that situation right at the moment.

I, too, have to agree with this way of thinking (at least for conformation below the knees). I have a "big" horse with a slight club foot that she was NOT born with nor did she develop it very early in life. I bred her and owned her until she was 8-10 months old or so and I kept an eye on her until she about two years old and then her owner moved out of state. I bought her back as a ten year old last Spring and she has a slight club foot that we are having a hard time correcting. When I bought her back I was told that she had very minimal (maybe a trim every other year, if her hooves didn't chip off and/or wear evenly or in a reasonable amount of time to them) farrier work over the last 8 years.