Congress - Financial Woes

[muffntuf]

Ruffian,

I must have mis-posted. I was asking what criteria would we follow - similar (which is what I don't know the procedures or rules for minis qualifying) or close to it?

I do realize if we had to qualify - we would have to hit a couple local shows. But most pony folks already hit at least 2 shows if not more. In some divisions - Modern and ASPR - we are only allowed 2 judges, so to get our HOF points - we have to hit more local shows. In that respect - we are very different than AMHR HOF.

Right now to get my ASPR stock their HOF points - I have to hit 2.5 X's as many shows a year and it will take me app. 3 1/2 to 4 years to get the required Grands and points. If the show only has one judge - I only get 1 point.

 

[JWC sr.]

I am willing to bet this coming year the Congress will have more participation and stands a very good chance to make a profit or at least break even.

By moving it to a better location closer to the center of the country and also a facility that really wants us there who is willing to work with us on pricing etc.

I think you are going to see a great show, with folks being able to come that have not been able to make it in years past just from a logistical standpoint.

As a business person, I can tell you that you can present financial reports in a number of different ways so as to slant or prove up any given point. The bottom line though is that congress has lost money for several years and I personally am glad to see the registry try something new in order to turn things around.

My suggestion is that we give it a chance, but watch things as far as the bottom line is concerned. The Board of Directors I have been assured has their collective eye on changing things for the better. The first salvo of that change is the relocation of the show to a better (yes it is better, I have been there) and more financially feasible location.

If this works then we need to get into a long term agreement somewhere, so as to again negociate better pricing.

 

[dmk]

John that was a great post...thank you. I agree with you on finding a location and how hard everyone is working to make this Congress a success.

 

[smallequie1]

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I read this whole post, what, 7 pages now, and above is one of the very few that got me going right away. You are going to post you "DONT HAVE PONIES" but you are going to turn around and give your "opinion" of them? HMMM, that is one of the very things that plague the PONY!!!

You dont want to invest in the time and effort, but yet you do with your minis, they really are the same thing, just a little taller, heck, most all the minis have PONY blood. Shoeing, well, it is NOT a requirement, I have never shod any of my ponies here, sure, some modern pleasure ponies, moderns, maybe a few drivers do, but it is SURE NOT a requirement.

I have seen more minis act like complete idiots, rearing and bucking, biting their handlers than I do ponies at our shows.

We take 5-6 ponies per show, maybe the occasional mini mare, and we have a great time.

A SHOW MINI IS NOT A BACKYARD EQUINE EITHER! No good SHOW animal is a back yard pet. There are however, MANY, MANY back yard pet, youth ponies, THEY ARE NOT FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, I raise, train, and sell them all the time. I have a whole darn herd of them. Your opinion means nothing when you dont own or show them. They can and ARE shown without people being trainers over and over again. They are very, very smart, willing, loving creatures, just like ANY other equine, the generlizations really show just how close minded you are. Train them to be hot, sure, they will be, train them or at least handle them, they will be pets. My children handle and pet my shetland mature stallions. Dont try and tell me or anyone else that they are not handleable or have to be shown by a trainer. Get one and you might be able to give your opinion without ticking another pony person off, but until you have one, your opinion really means nothing to me.

As far as the Congress losing money, sure, that IS a valid point that needs to be looked at. Flame the pony itself, and sure, your going to tick some people off....

 

[dannigirl]

I read this whole post. I have to agree that without owning a pony, you cannot make judgements about them. We have both and most are double registered mini and pony. I see no difference in the number of 'hot' versus 'quiet' animals in the two different registries. It really depends on the ammount of handling each animal gets. This brings up my next viewpoint. A couple have suggested that ponies and minis be shown at one national show concurrently--possibly at the same time as in local shows. The problem I have with that is that my minis/ponies are double registered and I can show them in either and/or both national shows. At local shows, we need to choose--mini or pony. I sure do not want to have to choose--Congress or Nationals. We often show different equine, but this year, 2 of ours showed both places.

 

[muffntuf]

Well there is an answer for everything - if the shows are held concurrently - you could hypothetically run classes opposites each other. But this is a crazy idea - but I have seen it work. In one arena - pony driving, in another arena - obstacle or something going on for minis - but that is a pretty advanced idea. And way ahead of our time for right now.

I digress - we need to stop the bleed - and I think this discussion has been good. I am seeing good things coming out of it.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Someone should set up a poll to see if members will actually show at local shows to qualify for Congress.

I think with the new move Congress should do very well. I say don't make any drastic changes yet. Sure make it costs as much as Nationals but don't want to scare new people off. I will guarantee new people will show at next years Congress based on the move. We may even go to watch depending on work.

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC? As for the shetlands not being hard to handle I disagree I think it all matters on how you handle them. I do think they can be hotter temperments but minis have it too, they are just easier to handle. Watching the shetlands show at Congress in St. Louis I couldn't believe how many things the kids could do with them. They can be the ultimate kids horse and I really don't see why people can't sell them as such.

I saw the numbers at Convention last year ASPC vs. AMHR and defintelly AMHR leads in the numbers. However depending on how you look at it that may not be such a good thing on new registrations seeing how many new mini foals are being born

. Anyways I think ASPC needs to take a step back and see what they can do better on promoting. See and trying to attract the AMHR/ASPC ponies to show at Congress. I don't think you will get as good numbers as you would for Nationals but you shouldn't be so much in the red either.

 

[Leeana]

Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.
Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.

Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The ponies are just not supporting themselves. I don't know the reason.

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

I am sorry - But this post contributes absolutely nothing to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!

 

[muffntuf]

JMS Miniatures Says:

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC? As for the shetlands not being hard to handle I disagree I think it all matters on how you handle them. I do think they can be hotter temperments but minis have it too, they are just easier to handle. Watching the shetlands show at Congress in St. Louis I couldn't believe how many things the kids could do with them. They can be the ultimate kids horse and I really don't see why people can't sell them as such.

Answer:

We have seen a pick up of new "shetland" owners in the past couple of years. It is exciting.

We also have seen more activity in exhibitors trying their hands as Modern Pleasure, Modern and ASPR - I am one who ventured in ASPR and will soon venture into the Modern division. So that is very exciting to see more new exhibitors in that arena (mostly amateurs).

The double registered division (AMHR/ASPC) often show at Congress in the Foundation division, some make it up to the Classic division. And there has been an increase in numbers that attend both Congress (the ASPC side) and Nationals (AMHR side). So it has had a trend upward as well.

I think we need to diminish the "hotter temerpments" - I have not seen a 'Hotly tempered' pony - I have seen ponies who are extremely willing to work and are excited to work. They are intelligent and love having jobs. They quickly excel at tasks given to them. But if not working on a regular basis, seem hot to those not used to them. The show ring is where they excel the most. It has a lot to do with how they are handled, and most seem to understand when there is a kid on the end of the line.

I will preface that with the more 'animated' divisions - some Modern Pleasures, Moderns and ASPR. I own miniatures, classics, modern pleasures, moderns and ASPR ponies. My miniature loves to work too, but she also likes to take it easy.

 

[dmk]

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC?

I understand what you are asking, but really an AMHR/ASPC pony IS a true ASPC Shetland. It is an ASPC Shetland that is small enough to register into the HEIGHT registry of AMHR either by hardshipping in as a mini or because it's parents were already registered AMHR. If it has ASPC papers it has ASPC parentage - so your ASPC/AMHR ponies have a Shetland pedigree. You may know all that already, but just to clarify for some that don't.

To answer your questions....I do think there are more people buying and breeding the smaller ponies than in years past in order to sell to people who want to show AMHR. Many are not interested in the ASPC side of the coin, but their ponies are still Shetlands. In my area (Texas - Area 5) there has been a large growth in pony numbers over the past 5-6 years ... ownership and showing ... our shows usually have a pretty good Shetland turnout. Few around here would have any problem if qualifying becomes an issue because our ponies are out there anyway. Out west I know there are more pony shows springing up, so must mean more pony owners. Most of the ones I know of are showing the larger Shetlands. I don't know if breeding numbers are increasing for the larger ponies, but I think ownership is increasing and show numbers, too - overall that is.

 

[~Lisa~]

to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!

There are myths about every breed of horse. It is annoying I agree but really do you know how many nasty comments I have heard about minis over the years? And Shetlands as well as T/B's. We always hear it about Arabs and NSH every breed has its haters.

At some point I think we need to quit taking it so personal. Are the myths correct- nope not in my mind but no point in arguing them (and I have done so here on this forum on some of the ponys are crazy threads) however I have since realized it is like arguing with someone on politics or religion no one is going to change minds.

Minds that are open will be changed by seeing something different other then what they had heard not by arguing here or on any message board JMO

 

[smallequie1]

to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!

There are myths about every breed of horse. It is annoying I agree but really do you know how many nasty comments I have heard about minis over the years? And Shetlands as well as T/B's. We always hear it about Arabs and NSH every breed has its haters.

At some point I think we need to quit taking it so personal. Are the myths correct- nope not in my mind but no point in arguing them (and I have done so here on this forum on some of the ponys are crazy threads) however I have since realized it is like arguing with someone on politics or religion no one is going to change minds.

Minds that are open will be changed by seeing something different other then what they had heard not by arguing here or on any message board JMO

Sure, there are annoying comments about all breeds, fine and dandy, but if someone doesnt even own one, do you REALLY think they should start posting on a forum about them and off topic as to the forum to begin with? That is where that sort of crap comes from, someone says it to someone else, who really has no clue either, then says it to another, etc, etc, etc. This is a public forum with lots of people, and judgements can be made from ONE single post about ponies. THAT is why the shetland has that "oh, ponies are mean/stubborn" stuff comes from to begin with!

People mentioned I dont know how many times on this one that they didnt want to "turn it into mini vs. pony" but making those sort of statements....what is to be expected? You dont see people posting negative stuff about minis on the pony forum, why is it needed on the mini one? It isnt needed. Noone said that it was a good thing the Congress lost money, it sucks, and needs to be looked at, but the comments from someone that doesnt even own a pony blasting the ponies themselves, and generalizing about them? Come on!

Sure, it will be taken personal to an extent. I would bet you big money that if I started posting all sorts of negative comments about minis on here that I would be blasted to the next planet! I wasnt here to change minds, I came on here (which I RARELY do) because I heard what was going on and thought I would take a look for myself. If I want to "defend" my breed, by golly I will, just as you all would if I came on here with negative comments about minis, especially if I didnt own them.

 

[ruffian]

I am not intending to tick anybody off. I HAVE owned ponies in the past. I don't NOW because I choose not to, but I have had them and so therefore IMO do have the right to comment on this post. So Please don't tell me that I do not have the right. My responses were intended to illustrate potential reasons why more people don't show ponies.

Bottom line, again, is that if a show - ANY SHOW - is not making money it needs to be changed or eliminated. There are no AMHA shows in Michigan due to the fact that AMHA miniatures did not support it. The last show held had about 10 horses show up. So it is no longer being held.

 

[~Lisa~]

Sure, there are annoying comments about all breeds, fine and dandy, but if someone doesnt even own one, do you REALLY think they should start posting on a forum about them and off topic as to the forum to begin with? That is where that sort of crap comes from, someone says it to someone else, who really has no clue either, then says it to another, etc, etc, etc. This is a public forum with lots of people, and judgements can be made from ONE single post about ponies. THAT is why the shetland has that "oh, ponies are mean/stubborn" stuff comes from to begin with!

well to be honest there is a lot of things I think should not be posted on a public forum and many uninformed opinions. In fact I am plenty sure many feel I have posted some things that should not have and that I have some uninformed opinions.

However that is the name of the game on any public message board and it is sadly human nature. Many a hurtful thing has been said and many a rumor been started and about much bigger things then the negative myths about minis and or ponies

I am not dismissing it - am simply saying trying to argue back about how it is not so will not be what changes anyones mind.

 

[Minimor]

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC?

Well, here I can honestly say Shetland numbers are increasing (and yes, whether they are ASPC or ASPC/AMHR Shetlands, they are “true” Shetlands because they all have the Shetland pedigree). In this province there is one breeder that has been buying the ASPC/AMHR horses—she is breeding them as well as showing, but when it comes to showing hers are being shown AMHR. Ours are all ASPC, too tall to be AMHR—I bought my first ASPC pony in 2008 and bought 4 more of them this year. I don’t plan on breeding them, but have every intention of showing them & in fact did have 4 in the show ring at our first ASPC show here in 2009. I am planning on showing all 5 in 2010—also plan on showing Minis in 2010 but if time/trailer room/money for entries is too limited to show all then it will be the Minis that stay home & the Shetlands will be shown. Our Shetlands are all in the 40-45” range—most will be 40-43” but one filly may mature closer to 45”, we will wait & see.

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.
In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

I am not intending to tick anybody off. I HAVE owned ponies in the past. I don't NOW because I choose not to, but I have had them and so therefore IMO do have the right to comment on this post. So Please don't tell me that I do not have the right. My responses were intended to illustrate potential reasons why more people don't show ponies.

Let me start by saying that I own and show both minis and ponies. I also NEVER post on a hot topic, I am a professional fence rider.

I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by all members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.

But sorry, the above posts did tick me off! First off, it is way off topic!!! I have 6 minis and 8 ponies. I have been bitten by every one of my minis, never by my ponies. 6/6 minis have steped on my foot, never by my ponies. 4/6 minis have kicked me, never by my ponies. I have seen many minis flip and roll while on the lead, never a pony yet. I have witnessed a youth get struck in the face by a rearing mini, never a pony yet. So... I don't know how you can say pretty much anybody can handle a mini. You are pretty close, but almost anybody could handle a Yorkie dog too, but not everybody could handle a Great Dane dog (yes I have owned them both).

Then you back tracked and stated you have owned ponies. Well, I invite you or anyone else to my farm who wants to experience what the American Shetland Pony is all about. But it does come with a warning: be prepared to be attacked by them. As they all argue over who will get their butts scratched first, or who is next in line to be brushed, or who wants to get kisses first. Because of generalized statement like yours, I avoided the Shetland Ponies for years. All I ever heard them called was "crazy d*mn shetlands", so because of people like you, I missed many years of not having these horses.

And it does not take a trainer to show a pony! Hello.... there are way more amateurs showing than trainers, same as the minis! Have you never seen a youth show a pony before? I had a 13 yo girl show one of my ponies this year, she had never even touched a pony before. Guess what, she showed that pony as if she was showing a mini, no difference in personality of the horse.

But I do agree, that not everyone can handle a pony, they are larger, so that means they are stronger. I am positive there is no way possible I could handle a non-trained Quarter Horse, TB or draft horse, I don't have the knowledge or strength.

I show all my ponies as classics, so I don't shoe mine or have a bunch on training equipment for them. Actually, they are much easier to keep fit then my minis.

Just as my farrier states...... if they have hooves, they can kick.... if they have teeth, they can bite!

I really don't understand why you even posted these statements, as they had nothing to do with the topic. But I feel I had to respond to this, as I don't want others to put stock in your post that shetlands can not be a gentle show pony! Once again, I invite anyone to my farm to fall in love with this breed!

 

[muffntuf]

Well any thing that has teeth, hooves and muscles - can hurt.

I think it has been well stated and shown - ponies are just a loveable and showable as minis. So The Simple Life Farm - welcome to the pony world!

I invite others to try out these fun and awesome creatures!

 

[disneyhorse]

You know what would help...

GO OUT AND BUY A SHOW QUALITY SHETLAND AND THEN BRING IT TO CONGRESS.

There!

If all the mini people would buy a Shetland and take it to Congress, then maybe they'd see what they were missing!

AND the Congress would be more successful!

Andrea

(The Shetlands are a blast... after you drive a Modern, the minis will be waaaaaaaaaaay boring to drive...)

 

[Leeana]

You know what would help...
GO OUT AND BUY A SHOW QUALITY SHETLAND AND THEN BRING IT TO CONGRESS.

There!

If all the mini people would buy a Shetland and take it to Congress, then maybe they'd see what they were missing!

AND the Congress would be more successful!

Andrea

(The Shetlands are a blast... after you drive a Modern, the minis will be waaaaaaaaaaay boring to drive...)

I like this .... whether you like it or not the shetlands ARE a part of your registry!

I show both miniatures and shetlands, about 50/50 each way.

 

[PrestigeMiniHorses]

You know the sad thing. I am fairly new to the pony world but love both minis and ponies equally. I have noticed out here in CO there's like zero participation from us in this avenue. I am a shetland owner and I too would like to pledge a sponsorship. I have high hops of going to congress next year as well despite the fact that there are no shows for us here..