Crypt 3 year old

[D W 2]

Has anybody ever had a 3 year old stud colt that dropped a testicle after his third birthday? I wanted to breed with him this year, what is the chance of him passing on this trait to offspring?

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

I thought on several occassions that I had a true "crypt" but the thing with these Miniatures is to get REALLY good at palpating them. Some times they hide them, sometimes they "disappear" because it's cold, etc. On my boys I thought where crypts, I wasn't really "looking or feeling" for them which I have found that most of the time, they are there you just have to feel for them. Plus some are smaller in size than others. 

However if you DO have a true crypt - YES it is genetic and I would have him gelded ASAP. I have heard to on many occassions though that they went to geld a "crypt" and lookie there the second one "popped" out and decided to present itself!

 

[Farina]

Yes - I have both.

One stallions dropped after breeding after his 3rd birthday and is now fully developed.

Another stallions has one testicle not dropped (now matured) and we have a son of him. The son has dropped late (after his actual 2nd birthday) but he has dropped both testicles.

I don't think it is general genetical, but I could be that he passes this late dropping to his offspring. If he is on the other hand high quality then I would give it a try. If it is genetically you can still geld him.

I would ask a vet to sedate him so you can easier palpate his testicles (or ask your vet to do this).

 

[Allure Ranch]

Has anybody ever had a 3 year old stud colt that dropped a testicle after his third birthday? I wanted to breed with him this year, what is the chance of him passing on this trait to offspring?

I'd have him examined by your vet to confirm where the other testicle might be.

 

Prior to utilizing this horse for breeding if he's not a crypt I'd recommend that you have him tested to verify if he's even fertile..... or if you'll need to have him gelded.

 

[ohmt]

Can your vet check to see if the retained teste is in the inguinal canal or the abdomen? If it's in the abdomen, at his age it will probably not descend. If it's in the inguinal canal, hormone treatment can bring it down. It is agreed between most scientists and veterinarians that cryptorchidism IS genetic, but it is unknown as to it's heritable nature. They have done some studies and have found that it is most likely not autosomal dominant or recessive (which is why MOST cryptorchid stallions don't produce a son with it). That still leaves many other heritable ways though that need to be studied. Testing autosomal dominant and recessive are the easy ones-the others take more time so it may be a while before we know for sure.

 

[spots n splashes]

I was told that if you had a crypt stallion and decided not to geld him early that the testicle can wrap around his intestines and cause death. Is that true? I have a 3 year old QH stallion (who did breed a mare last year as a 2 year old and she is now pregnant) that MAY be crypt. I have never seen both testicles down but the vet has "felt" the other one. She said it was "way up there". He was even sedated but it did not drop. She insists that I geld him before it kills him. I am going for a second opinion from another vet. He is really good quality, pedigree and you'd think he WAS a gelding he is sooo mellow and gentle (even after first time breeding). I don't want to geld him unless I am told he is 100% crypt. If he wasn't of good quality that he is and was cheap, yes I would have gelded him right away.

 

[Farina]

It is agreed between most scientists and veterinarians that cryptorchidism IS genetic, but it is unknown as to it's heritable nature. They have done some studies and have found that it is most likely not autosomal dominant or recessive (which is why MOST cryptorchid stallions don't produce a son with it). That still leaves many other heritable ways though that need to be studied. Testing autosomal dominant and recessive are the easy ones-the others take more time so it may be a while before we know for sure.

I have learned that it is herited by the mother. So if you have a cryptorchid from one dam she will most likely produce another one. That was true with our stallion. He has got a sibling who is cryptorchid too.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sorry, but there is a reason why this is considered a fault, and a reason why most societies will not accept a stallion who does not have two fully descended equal testes, as a breeding stallion. I would not, ever, consider using a colt without two testicles, and I would not even use a colt who is a late developer as that, too, is an inheritable trait.

So, you have to make a decision, as to whether his bloodlines are so important that you can risk passing the problem on, or whether he should be gelded now. Either way, a Vet would be a good place to start (or you can pay my plane fair, if it is there, I can find it!

)

 

[D W 2]

His bloodlines are important, he came from a very well known farm and his full brother sold for 15,000 dollars US and was exported to Europe, I would really like to use him. I will take him to a vet and see.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I have known of one that dropped after his third birthday, but it's not the norm by far.

As to the inheritability of late dropping or cryptorchidism, if all the stallions are gelded, it shouldn't be passed unless the daughters of a crypt are passing the genetics? The belief is it's genetically passed, but is it father>son or father>daughter too? If so then the daughters of crypts should be removed from the breeding pool as well.

I don't know the current research and/or theory, but I would NEVER breed a crypt on the possibility it is genetically passed.

As for you stallion's genetics being important. I don't know him, but I've yet to see/own a stallion that wouldn't make a great gelding. Any fault such as being a cryptorchid would be a guaranteed geld here IMHO regardless of his potential genetics.

 

[Becky]

I would not, ever, consider using a colt without two testicles, and I would not even use a colt who is a late developer

While I agree that I would not use a colt/stallion without two testicles, I still feel adamant that many owners and even veterinarians do not appear to have the skills to palpate testicles on miniatures. It is my feeling that many miniatures are incorrectly labeled as crypt/monorchid when they are not.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Cryptorchidism appears to have some genetic link/heritability, but this does not explain every cryptorchid.

Cryptorchidism is more common in quarter horses, percherons, saddlebreds, and ponies. Although, I do personally agree that due to the size of testes, ponies are labeled crypts when they may not be.

There is a medical treatment described, but I know of no data as to its success, in my hands the success has been zero.

We are taught in Vet School to recommend castration of every crypt in every species. I personally disagree. I think the totality of the horse should be taken into account. After all, would you have gelded Secretariat for being a crypt??

Dr Matthew Taylor

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Cryptorchidism appears to have some genetic link/heritability, but this does not explain every cryptorchid.

Cryptorchidism is more common in quarter horses, percherons, saddlebreds, and ponies. Although, I do personally agree that due to the size of testes, ponies are labeled crypts when they may not be.

There is a medical treatment described, but I know of no data as to its success, in my hands the success has been zero.

We are taught in Vet School to recommend castration of every crypt in every species. I personally disagree. I think the totality of the horse should be taken into account. After all, would you have gelded Secretariat for being a crypt??

Dr Matthew Taylor

Hi Dr. Taylor... Are you talking about hormone testing??

After reading some literature on hormone testing, we decided to try it on my 18 month old colt. When sedated the vet could just feel the tip of the right and couldn't feel anything on the left. We have been giving him 2.5 cc of hCG twice a week for a month. He gets his last injection tomorrow. He dropped one testicle fully and we can feel the tip of the other so we are pretty hopeful that it will fully drop as well. In the study conducted half of the colts that had testes above the inguinal ring dropped both testes. Not bad for a $50 treatment! It is definitely worth a try. We weren't expecting any results.

I agree with Dr. Taylor. While in some cases, I think it is genetic I do no think it is in all cases. What if some colts just have a lower testosterone level or deficiency that is preventing them from dropping? What if it is caused by something in there diet or lack of something in their diet? I think there is just too much we do not know about genetics to be passing judgment. Unless you know for sure that it is running in that line of horses, I don't think you can say for sure until they have a DNA test for it.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

Sorry, I have some confusion in your use of the word 'testing'.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HcG), can be used to 'test' to see if a male has any remaining testicular tissue. It stimulates the teste to produce testosterone, testosterone is measured pre and post HcG injection.

Many different protocols are described using HcG and/or Gonadotrpoin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) to 'treat' a retained teste. Reports suggest 5-50% success rate. Likely the wide variation is due to sample selection. Meaning its quite possible that many that were 'cured' would have descended on their own.

It is thought that the treatment needs to be done before 18 months old and only on inguinal tests. Well if it only 'works' on young studs who have almost descended testes, then how well does it really work??

I don't mind the attempt (I've done it myself and likely will again in the future) and I'm glad to hear your horse now has at least one teste, but its debatable how helpful it really is.

I have a joke (stolen from a mentor of mine) where I say 'if we rub mustard on the end of your nose and your cold gets better, does that mean the mustard worked?'. My point is one action simply following another does not produce cause. I want people to pay attention and make good decisions based on good information.

Dr Taylor

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Sorry, I have some confusion in your use of the word 'testing'.

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HcG), can be used to 'test' to see if a male has any remaining testicular tissue. It stimulates the teste to produce testosterone, testosterone is measured pre and post HcG injection.

Many different protocols are described using HcG and/or Gonadotrpoin Releasing Hormone (GnRH) to 'treat' a retained teste. Reports suggest 5-50% success rate. Likely the wide variation is due to sample selection. Meaning its quite possible that many that were 'cured' would have descended on their own.

It is thought that the treatment needs to be done before 18 months old and only on inguinal tests. Well if it only 'works' on young studs who have almost descended testes, then how well does it really work??

I don't mind the attempt (I've done it myself and likely will again in the future) and I'm glad to hear your horse now has at least one teste, but its debatable how helpful it really is.

I have a joke (stolen from a mentor of mine) where I say 'if we rub mustard on the end of your nose and your cold gets better, does that mean the mustard worked?'. My point is one action simply following another does not produce cause. I want people to pay attention and make good decisions based on good information.

Dr Taylor

I guess I should use the word "studies" instead of testing.

In one of the studies that I was referring to, half of the colts that had the testes above the inguinal ring had them descend after receiving hormone injections for a month.

There have been several studies on using different hormones such as hCG and GnRH to help testes descend.

Yes, it is true that the colts that descended might have descended eventually on their own however you cannot know for sure. So it is definitely debatable and It needs to be studied further. With my colt, one of his testes could not be felt at all when sedated. The vet thought it might be in the abdomen. But, now we can feel the tip of that one as well.

So, yes I do agree it is debatable however it needs to be studied further and I don't see the harm in giving it a try especially when it is so affordable.

 

[D W 2]

Thank you for all of your help, I know that it is very debatable and I have seen a few Crypt quarter horses but am not that great with minis in that area, he has a few months yet as he is not quite 3 yet, I dont mind ones that descend late as I wont use them until they are 3 and I can still show them. Its just to spend a bunch of money on a stud and get a gelding is not quite what I was looking for, I do geld my colts before they go to be sold but I have never heard of the females passing it on? It is nice to hear a vets opinion as well so thank you Dr. Taylor for the input.