Cryptorchid

[nootka]

Danna, you sound lots like me when I was in my "worrying" phase about my stallion.

I came to terms with it, though, and did the right thing, eventually!

Another thing to note, as I posted earlier, is that NO OTHER horse in this horse's pedigree had this condition, and there are several full brothers of his out there that I personally know, and many half brothers, sisters, his sire, his dam's sire, etc. (heck, you can SEE them in his portrait, both of 'em!).

It happens. Like I said, even my monorchid stallion had three foals that had their testicles fully descended at birth.

Another note is to have a veterinarian look for them. They can be super tiny and shaped more like tubular beans when they are first coming down. It does not feel like what you expect. On my stallion, the single testicle that was always down since I bought him at four months was small about the size of a walnut, and then when he was three, it grew to the size of a large Kiwi fruit and so this is what helped me know the other was never going to happen. It also concerned my vet, though he was concerned when he wasn't fully dropped by 6 mo.

If your horse were mine, I'd wait til he was 2 to be overly concerned and defer to your breeders for some possible mitigation, though if it was not part of the contract, not a lot can be done. You may have yourself a lovely new gelding, and that is the sad part about stallion shopping in the weanie section. I learned this lesson, too. I know how hard it is.

Try not to be too sad, many things can happen between now and then.

Liz M.

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I just know that I'm going to trust everything I was told when I purchased him and since (right up to this thread) and I'm also going to keep track of everything I spend on him as a stallion from here on in. The breeders are 100% aware of everything going on (they've read this post) and I've e-mailed them in the past about this issue and my concerns.
Oh stress.

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If the breeders are who I think they are, I don't think you have anything to worry about and I'm sure they will make it right if things don't pan out like you expected.

 

[dmhstacy]

If he is an exceptional horse and you know you could not buy another one like him give him the time. Talk to the breeder they should offer you an another option. If you are prepared to grown him on ask for a free service from one of their stallions seeing you can not use the one you purchased for that reason - its not your fault you can not use him yet and that is being reasonable (you are feeding him and taking the gamble).

Otherwise ask for an exchange/refund make sure THEY are looking after you! They did breed him its their responsiblity you are happy. (unless you purchased him knowing the 2nd was not there)

But remember you ethically will have to tell anyone who looks at his get or grandget that he was late to drop.

 

[miniwhinny]

I'm sure they will sort things out for me.

I did e-mail them 2-3 weeks ago ...still worrying about his condition and asking if his sire and all of his relatives they they knew of etc were dropped. He was but his half brother, same dam, just dropped this past year and he's 5. Guess after this post I'm left feeling more and more like I'm in a loosing situation

I do have another question regarding a filly I purchased at the same time. I guess while I'm airing Ozy's faults I'll ask your opinions about her. I purchased a yearling filly from the same breeders. I was very specific about making sure that they were not related in any way because both were going to be used as breeding animals. I also wanted show quality as I intend on showing them...I was going to show this year but my Dad is dying of pancreatic cancer and I've been spending every free moment travelling the 3 hours to portland every weekend to be with him. Anyhoo, I purchased a gorgeous bay yearling filly. A few weeks after I got her home I found out mini's can have vertain problems. SO I checked her bote. Her bottom jaw is about 1/4 inch ahead of her top one. I e-mailed the breeders right away and they said her bite was perfect as a baby and to wait that it would come back on. It's now over a year later and her bite is still the same. Will that come back on?

 

[SweetOpal]

Danna M:

Good morning! First of all I want to say that reading this has been pretty informative to me, but one thing I notice is that you keep thinking your little colt will be worthless if he is not breedable. If you love something so much how could he be worthless as a gelding? We have 3 show geldings that we have dragged all over the western US this year and have done totally awesome with. I bought one of them as a stallion and had him gelded after taking my barn blindness off and realized he would make a super gelding and he has.

If you love the guy he would be happier any day as a gelding, and at my house a gelding can stay forever. Stallions have a lonely life, they are not always super loving unless your a mare

I just think you are selling the little guy short. There are thousands of stallions out there and if you did have to geld him im sure you could find one to breed to for a stud fee rather than feeling like you are sinking money into him. If he is a nice stallion (conformation wise) then he will be a super gelding!

JMO

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

The bites can change over time, as long as I believe it's only a half or is is a quarter (?) of a tooth off, it is still within the standards of perfection.

Let me say that NO breeder can guarantee any horse will turn out to be show quality when they sell a baby. It's only their best guess based on their experience with that cross. What looks correct as a weanling can turn into a very ugly, albeit sweet, animal when it's grown. And one person's show quality is another's cull, it's all so subjective.

Relax, have fun and learn. You will find as you become more experienced that your "eye" will change from what you think looks good right now anyway.

IMO and please don't get upset but I think it's a disaster waiting to happen those new to horses, or any species beginning their experience by breeding them. As I've always said foals are not cookies and you can't eat your mistakes. Well I guess you could but that would be gross.

If I were you, I'd show them both heavily, at regional shows at least, see how they do then make the decision whether you want them to be the start of your herd.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok well my take for what it is worth is while I know you purchased him as a stallion prospect alot of times that just doesnt work out with young stock be it testicles, bite, or conformation that changes- doesnt make it easier on you but I must say i totally agree with KWJENNY

why is it in this breed alone a gelding or mare who has repro issues is a give away horse....

Anyway back to the subject I would before getting all concerned here - there are people with there own views and opinoins and strong ones at that I would talk to your vet see if he can feel them sometimes on a young horse they even need to sedate them a bit to see if they can feel them I personally would go from there and see what he or she says.

 

[miniwhinny]

jwjenny,

I agree wholeheartedly with the gelding advice. However in this case I didn't buy him as a gelding, I bought him as a stallion and paid the price that came along with that. I'm also looking at way more money now to geld this guy even if I wanted him as a gelding. I have nothing against geldings almost every full sized horses I've ever owned was one.

I'm also not new to horses or breeding, just new to mini's. Boy have a learned a lot recently.

As for buying a young horses that doesn't work out..oh gosh, I understand that. I'm not wanting a guarantee of a horse I'm told could easily go top ten (thats what I was told of ozy) to really turn out that well. I just want to make sure that if I buy a horse specifically to be a stud that he has plumbing. If he turned out not to be nice enough in type, attitude or whatever that's not the breeders responsibility (imo) that's a risk any buyer takes. BUT, to buy horses for specific reasons and to not be able to use them for those reasons because of underlying possibly genetic conditions is hard.

My vet hasn't seen ozy but they did say (after talking on the phone) that at 18 months with only one testicle that he is a monorchid and should not be bred. From a number of private PM's a large number of breeders also feel that even if he dropped at 2 I shouldn't breed him especially as his genetic half brother dropped way late also.

I'm not opposed to gelding Ozy, I adore him, but as I'm gelding him because I have to not because I want to I think the breeders and I have some working out to do.

I've learned a lot from this thread and I just want to thank everyone who responded privatly for your support. I know if I ever buy another mini I'll be checking every orofice (sp) first hehehe

The sad thing is that when newbies have things like this happen...being told that genetic problems are okay and then finding out you didn't get what you were told you were buying it taints all breeders with the same brush. I'd sure be leary buying another mini I couldn't see in person and from the PM's I got a lot of folks feel that way too.

I know in one of the breeds I came from their horses are inspected for registration and no horse with a genetic fault would be accepted, maybe that's the only way to prevent these problems being perpetuated.

Trying to keep happy, and STILL loving on my 2 mini's

 

[miniwhinny]

why is it in this breed alone a gelding or mare who has repro issues is a give away horse....

Oh they are not, they are not, they are not. I wouldn't be opposed to gelding my colt OR spaying my filly and they'd both be just as loved and just as valued. But, and this is what this is all about, they were purchased as show/breeding horses and prices were paid accordingly for show/breeding quality animals. I certainly wouldn't have paid top dollar for my filly if she was spayed or if I knew about her bite when I got her and knew she shouldn't be bred. And to be honest, which is why I did buy the horses I did, I am not looking for a gelding or a non breeding mare at this time. Nothing against them, just not what I was after.

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I can't tell you guys how much this thread has upset me. I came into it yesterday all happy and assured of my colts "condition" being normal for mini's. I was told in person and by e-mail that this was normal everytime I brought it up because it has worried me being new to horses (hubby was told too).

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Sorry I guess I misunderstood this, I read it as you are new to horses not that you have breeding or experience with horses.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

why is it in this breed alone a gelding or mare who has repro issues is a give away horse....

Oh they are not, they are not, they are not. I wouldn't be opposed to gelding my colt OR spaying my filly and they'd both be just as loved and just as valued. But, and this is what this is all about, they were purchased as show/breeding horses and prices were paid accordingly for show/breeding quality animals. I certainly wouldn't have paid top dollar for my filly if she was spayed or if I knew about her bite when I got her and knew she shouldn't be bred. And to be honest, which is why I did buy the horses I did, I am not looking for a gelding or a non breeding mare at this time. Nothing against them, just not what I was after.

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I am sorry I should have been more clear I didnt mean this at you in this instance I realize you bought them as show and breeding stock.. been down that road before to be honest

you bought them as BREEDING STOCK and i totally understand your disappointment.. I was stating that as a very general statement not really related to your situation at all sorry my fault for not being more clear

 

[miniwhinny]

being new to horses

I'm sorry... I meant to say new to mini horses..that was my fault. Too much typing and not enough brain left hehehe.

 

[ohmt]

What a very informative thread!! I guess I'm not with many of you on some of these issues though. We HAVE waited for a stallion to drop when he was 4 once. We're actually using him now and he gives us gorgeous babies. His first colt dropped as a yearling and we have a few more born this year that we'll wait and see on. We would never ever even think about gelding him. We don't use our stallions until they are 3 anyways (same with our mares) as we feel they need time to mature and learn the ropes so to us if a stallion doesn't drop until they are 3 then it doesn't matter. We've never bred bigger horses and I've heard that they must be dropped by 6 months or 9 months or ladi dadi da. If a stallion does not drop until they are 3 then how is that wrong? I guess I just don't get it. I can also see how people that keep breeding short necks, long backs, big headed horses can be called shameful (breeding purposely of course) but REALLY-breeding a stallion that doesn't drop right away is SHAMEFUL?? Okay, I would never breed a monorchid or a cryptorchid but if the stallion's got his stuff and I like him then I'll use him. When I buy a stallion I ask the owners if he's got them both down and if he's proven not "Did he have them both when he was born??" or "When EXACTLY did he drop" or "Man I really like him but he didn't drop until he was a whole 24 months old.....gosh I don't think I'm gonna buy him, even if he is a National Champion sire because he dropped about..let's see...4 months late." Sorry, but I'm stickin with what we got!! Oh ya Danna M..I say if you like him then wait until he's 5 to drop. Do of course be honest if anybody ever asks you WHEN in case it really matters to them.

 

[dmhstacy]

I have a horse that had a perfect bite as a babyat 2.5yrs when her teeth were changing her bite went out by quite alot (i could fit a finger betweeen the gap)

I panicked and took her back to the breeder. But was given the option to giver her a bit of time for the teesth to change. After 2 months her bite was good again now it is less the 1 mm out - amazing!

But if you purchased the horse as a show horse - and you are not happy with the bite - take it back! swap it for something else!

stacy

 

[tuffsmom]

"Here a normal gelding is about $400 and gelding a mon or crypt can cost up to $1,500. I can't imagine being stuck with a useless stallion that needed to be gelded for $1,500 I would be a MOST unhappy customer"

SO how long do I wait? When does my gorgeous stud colt become a worthless stallion - and $1500 to geld a horse I was not going to geld because of what I was told???!!!

 

 

Is he passed that stage already at a year...or am I still within the "normal" stage?

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FOUR HUNDRED dollars to geld a horse??!?!?!?!!?

It costs us $60 bucks, that's with the vet coming to our place, with drugs, the whole 9 yards. That's price gouging at it's finest, LOL.

 

[Tammie-C_Spots]

I had a stallion that didn't drop till real late (4 I think it was) and his son also didn't drop till 3 yrs. I didn't want to have to wait 3-4 yrs for a colt to "grow up" and the dropping late was one reason for gelding the stallion. I sold his late-blooming son and emphasised to not breed him and have him gelded.

I have a 2 yr old that didn't drop till just about his two year old birthday. If you think I'd geld him just 'cause he didn't drop earlier- I'd be crazy to to that. This 2 yr old is quality all the way with excellent bloodlines. I think waiting till three is about the latest I'd wait before deciding to geld. Now that I've been into minis for so many years I would not be as tolerant now of a real late bloomer. I do think it's genetic and don't want to pass that tendancy on.

I also agree with those who noted that getting something in writing is the best option when purchasing a horse for a specific purpose. I know I'd take back, without any problem, a colt that didn't drop that was bought as a breeding horse.

As for bad bites- I think that is also highly inheritable. I won't breed a horse with a bad bite. I have seen very few perfect bites. Most are very close being slightly over or having a crooked tooth or retained baby teeth that put things out of alignment.

JMO

Tammie

 

[Miniv]

This is Larry Cerullo. The horses that Danna is speaking of are of our breeding. We have been communicating with Danna all along with information based on our fifteen years of breeding experience. The colt Danna is referring to, Ozy, is an animal that Maryann and I were planning to keep as a future herd sire. He is a Buckeroo grandson. Danna and her husband talked us into selling him to them for what we felt was a bargain price. At that point, he was just about four days old or so and BOTH his testicles were descended. WE RETAINED A NUMBER OF BREEDINGS TO THIS COLT because we were so sure of his quality. When Danna was negotiating with us to buy a herd sire, she changed her mind more than once when looking at colts of far less quality.

In my experience in the mini world, it is NOT uncommon for colts to retain one or both testicles until they are AT LEAST two years old and sometimes three or four. This has been verified by MANY respectable and lLONG TIME miniature breeders including breeders of such emininence as Scott Creek Farm's Larry and Joanne Ross. I have seen and handled many thousands of miniature horses over my career; I have talked to hundreds of breeders and most feel that this is a non issue. There ARE late bloomers in our breed and some have gone on to become National Champions and producers of marvelous get THAT MANY OF YOU OWN!

Regarding bites on minis, I maintain as will a number of other LONG TIME mini breeders that they change sometimes monthly until the adult teeth come in. The best indicator is how their gums line up at birth as well as the bites of the parents. I also am aware that the horses' jaws grow at different rates as the horse matures. The filly that Danna owns had gums that were lined up at birth. The filly's parents are two of our best horses and their bites are fine.

The veterinarians in this area have little experience with minis. There are a couple who have had exposure to a number of them because they were our vets. Most vets here treat the minis as big horses and are unaware of the problems that inherent with our man-made breed.

Danna has made it sound like we have tried to "screw" her from the beginning of our relationship with her and her husband. Most of you know that Maryann and I are reputable and stand by our word. We will stand by our word and will stand by our reputation AND contract.

Larry Cerullo

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

Larry and MA,

I'm sorry you felt compelled to come on the forum to defend yourself. Miniature Ventures has a long and impeccable reputation. I just hate it when the forum is misused in this way and it's been happening way too often.

Business dealings should be kept private and when it's not I think ML or the mods should put the kabash on it immediately.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

DannaM -

For what it's worth, we've foaled out over 100 foals here, and only a few (three to be exact) have been born with offbites of more than 1/2 tooth (only one of our breeding - his bite). They do go off and come back often in the first few years of life, BUT if they were even (the gums) when they were born, it's usually a mechanical or growth issue. Get a true equine dentist, not the local DVM, but one that knows horses - there are a few good ones in Oregon (Porland area) to check you're mini's bite if it is a concern.

Plus depending on the angle you hold a horses head, you can manipulate a bite to look dead on or close to it - lots of trainers use that trick in the show ring - so be careful to assume a horse's bite is off or on without a vet check. Think about your own bottom jaw and how far foreward/back you can move it.

And as far as the whole retained testicle - I'll stand by my position and that of many breeders and vets that are familiar with Miniature Horses - 2-3 years is NOT late to drop. I wouldn't breed a stallion until he is fully descended (and mentally mature enough!), but I wouldn't call a horse a cryptorchid until all the evidence is in from a vet's thorough exam/xray to determine where the testicle is located. For goodness sake AMHA doesn't require a stallion certificate until they're third year - showing as a senior stallion!

If you do your independent research, you'll find there are many articles that address cryptorchidism online written by vets. As you mentioned you were buying to show and I assume breed - ii behooves you to educate yourself on issues that will affect your future reputation as a breeder, not just accept our opinions, experienced or not as they may be.

On a personal note - I'm sure the Cerullo's would be happy to work with you PRIVATELY to address your concerns as any reputable breeder would. I've never personally done business with them, but do know they have a good reputation from everyone I've spoken too.

 

[nootka]

I had to say that when I realized whom they were referring to, I had no problems figuring things would be handled in a fair manner, and that is not to say that the buyer is, unfortunately, in some situations, the one who loses out because they did not have a contract stating such. I had no feelings that the seller in this case would do anything to leave their buyer with that outcome, and would do what is fair to make it better.

I have been through this situation as a buyer, and I did not have a contract for testicles, but I did for height, go figure, live and learn. I did learn a lesson, and while it wasn't cheap, I don't know that even the sellers in that case would have known to worry about it as none of this stallion's relatives exhibited this defect (single retained testicle).

Maybe this thread had best fade away and the involved parties can handle it privately.

Liz M.