cushing mares

[pinck43]

I would like to hear your experiences with Cushings mares. I have tried to get a mare bred for 3 years. Learned about Cushings last year and had her checked. She was put on pergolide, and is now bred and ready to foal. How are the foals from these mares? Do they have issues from the medicine? I was told to take the mare off pergolide about a month before the foal is born. Thanks, dionne

 

[Make A Wish Miniatures]

I have a n 18 year old mare who was diagnosed with Cushings after I had already bred her. She started showing symptoms at about five months into her pregnancy. she is also IR. The mare foaled easily ( she has red bagged numerous times in the past) My Vet said to make sure we did an IGg , It turned out to be really good which surprised the Vet. I decided too retire her after this foal.

 

[Shari]

Why would you try to breed a mare with Cushings? Specially when the mare with cushings can genetically pass this problem on to their foal.

 

[pinck43]

Why would you try to breed a mare with Cushings? Specially when the mare with cushings can genetically pass this problem on to their foal.

Truthfully, I didn't think this was a genetic problem. Will talk to my vet about this. thanks

 

[bevann]

Truthfully, I didn't think this was a genetic problem. Will talk to my vet about this. thanks

I have 3 mares now with Cushings-none bred.2 of them are daughters of a Cushings mare 3rd daughter is OK.I personally would not breed a known Cushings mare.My mares are now in their 20's and I din't know dam had Cushings when I was breeding her.1 mare is on Pergolide-other 1 is on Heiro(herbal supplement) is on D-Carb and Remission and still has very fat 6 ich long deposit on neck-nothing seems to work on her.No founder and no issues for all 3 except 1 on Pergolide eats LOTS to keep good weight on her.It is a challenge to maintain them without founder.

 

[pinck43]

I talked with my vet about Cushings being hereditary. He says there have been no known studies proving Cushings is hereditary. There is some recent studies proving that the older horses have adysregulation of cytokines (proinflammatory mediators) which maypredispose them to developing PPID. It is however, a very common disease amongst our older population of horses with ponies,Arabians, Morgans, etc. It would be along study to determine inheritance as we don't see the disease until horses reach their mid to late teens. He is not concerned about breeding a Cushings mare as long as you have the disease under control and the mare is in a healthy state. Just a little info.

 

[Sue_C.]

I talked with my vet about Cushings being hereditary. He says there have been no known studies proving Cushings is hereditary. There is some recent studies proving that the older horses have adysregulation of cytokines (proinflammatory mediators) which maypredispose them to developing PPID. It is however, a very common disease amongst our older population of horses with ponies,Arabians, Morgans, etc. It would be along study to determine inheritance as we don't see the disease until horses reach their mid to late teens. He is not concerned about breeding a Cushings mare as long as you have the disease under control and the mare is in a healthy state. Just a little info.

Cushing's and Genetics
According to this article by Dr. Harold Schott, there is a strong genetic factor, especially among ponies and miniature horses:

"Currently, we do recognize that some breeds (Morgans especially) and types of equids (ponies in particular) are at greater risk of developing Cushing's disease. These observations, accompanied by the fact that Cushing's disease has been recognized for a number of decades in horses, suggest that genetics likely plays a more important role than environment in development of Cushing's disease."

 

[Ashley]

I would never breed a mare with this. I know of a mare that was not known to have cushings until after she was bred. Being in foal, increased how fast it came on and the sympotoms. The mare presented with the tell tail symptoms in the late winter, the mare had to be put down before she got to foal. Pregnancy is known to make the disease worse.

 

[Hosscrazy]

From what I know, it has not been proven that Cushings is genetic. There is a possibility that IR can be genetic, but not all Cushings horses are IR. The two are not always related. My Cushings mare had 2 offspring that I owned, and neither one developed IR or Cushings. However, once my mare developed Cushings, I chose not to breed her, as her immune system was already compromised and I did not want to add additional stress. I don't know the condition of your mare, and each case is different.

Also, if your mare has a history of laminitis or founder from the Cushings, that could be something you want to talk to your vet about.

Liz R.

 

[alphahorses]

Has your mare actually been tested for Cushings? Or was the assumption made because she is a mini/pony and the symptoms are there?

 

[pinck43]

We had been trying to get this mare bred for 3 years without success. Going to a specialist and everything was ok with this mare. I saw a discussion about Cushings and not knowing what this was, I investigated it. My mare had many symptoms so I had her tested. She is not IR. Put her on pergolide and bam, she is bred and looks GREAT.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I read somewhere that the cushings and IR is possibly related to over vaccination. THe one size fits all approach to vaccination is theoried to be the reason it is more common in minis and ponies. I had a pony that came down with cushings just following a vaccination series.

Don't fry me guys, just throwing out some misc stuff to see what pops up from others. I also heard that some 75% of ponies will develop some sort of IR or cushings in their lifetime, if this is true, I don't believe that breeding an IR or cushings mini would necessarily be the cause of the resulting foal getting IR. I do believe dietary management of miniatures and ponies is one the best you can do to help your horses. There are also some holostic alternatives to pergolide from what I understand. I started doing research when our pony tested positive, but he foundered badly before we could get very far in a treatment plan. I also think that there are more cushings ponies and minis out there that are being managed as IR only and just haven't had the testing to confirm cushings yet but are likely positive... My pony had no outward symptoms either, not fat, not over grazed, slick hair in the summer. Completely came out of left field for us following vaccinations. cheers.

 

[Sue_C.]

I read somewhere that the cushings and IR is possibly related to over vaccination. THe one size fits all approach to vaccination is theoried to be the reason it is more common in minis and ponies...

I did find one mention to this...but it refers to much more than the regular yearly preventiative innoculations...rather the full-scale regimen of many highly-stressed performance horses.

Cushings info

As stated in this quote:

Drug and vaccine useThe overuse of drugs and vaccines is rampant in many horses, especially horses used in competitions. Many competition horses receive multiple drugs during a show, and many live on a variety of non-steroidal anti-inflammatory (NSAIDs), antibiotics, steroids and bronco-dilators all the time. The level of internal stress created by the use of such a large quantity of drugs has a negative effect on the entire immune system, the health of the gastro-intestinal system and the ability of the horse to digest and absorb nutrients correctly.

The overuse of vaccines is understood to create problem with the immune system, though there is little human research to prove a connection between vaccines and insulin resistance. There are some reports of vaccines as part of the possible cause of insulin dependant diabetes (19 Ovetchkine), but very little proof. Clinically, however, many of the homeopathic remedies that fit the Insulin resistance and Cushing’s horses are the vaccinosis remedies. The vaccinosis remedies produce some excellent results, though some cases require other remedies not related to vaccinosis.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Thanks Sue_C for the link.. I read as much as I can on cushings, founder and vaccinosis. The cushings onset on my pony was so timed after a series of vaccinations I will always wonder. I highly recommend that people do not vaccinate geriatric animals in full series doses. I had a vet that insisted on full series of shots, one month apart for three months in a row on a 15 year old pony that was healthy and did not go anywhere but our farm. Cushings and founder followed. I will always wonder if trying to be diligent, that my efforts resulted in my problems.

 

[Sue_C.]

I am so glad we live where we do. The shots that my horses need, are far-far less than the horses of the southern States.

 

[GypsyMoonMinis]

Thats very interesting about the vaccinations, I would love to find more information about that.

Where i work we have Arabians, Egyptian and polish. Arabs have quite alot in common with minis and ponies, given the state of their metabolism and over all hardiness etc. One of the foundation mares came down with a serious case of laminitis a few years ago and it is now chronic. She has also been tested for cushings and was surprisingly negative for it. She is however insulin resistant, thus the chronic lamanitis flair-ups. it is so bad she cannot even have 15 mins of green grass, the sugar in it just sends her over the edge.

Now in regards to genetics, while this isn't exactly cushings, there are alot of similarities. Her 6 yr old daughter has shown signs of insulin issues as well as increased skin allergies and her 5 yr old son was just diagnosed anemic (which i found out is fairly common in hot blooded horse breeds). Is it all related? it may or may not be. All three of these horses have multiple championships under their belts and were shown over much of the US. The dam with IR is now 13 so naturally no one knew about this at the time she was being bred. There is another son of hers on the farm, but he's only 3 and her last foal. This far he has no issues at all. She will not be bred again and is living her life as comfortably as can be as a well loved pet.

So just from my own experience, I would not really want to bred an animal that has any kind of issue, even if it isn't genetic. Food for thought anyways. I hope all turns out well for you and that the baby is healthy and sound

 

[shorthorsemom]

From what I have found from studying dogs and vaccinosis is that there is a theory that you can have a genetic link for reaction to vaccines. Dogs can develop and maintain very high titers to vaccines and most dogs are vaccinated for life on their puppy shots. Dogs with high titers that are vaccinated over and over again, begin to develop problems as a result. Might explain why when some can vaccinate their horses yearly 5+ shots at a time and have no issues and some get a reaction every time they vaccinate. My friend had a bearded collie that started going "off" at his 2 year old shots. He lost hair, got aggressive and got hot spots etc. every time he got a booster. My friend did much research and after many years of frustration seeing her dog have issues with vaccinations started doing some reading about the subject (Jean Dodds) and titering because she was getting alot of crap from her vet for not wanting to vaccinate. What has found on her own through titering is that this dog was "off the charts" on titer levels. By vaccinating her dog with such high titers she was essentially sending this dog into a tail spin every time he got a shot. This dog even reacts to rabies vaccine which the vet insists on giving because it is required by law. Interestingly enough this dog with an unusually high titer has developed cushings in his old age.

Until they do the studies on horses and develop reasonably priced titering and get the information flowing, horse people will continue to vaccinate as recommended by their vets. If I were in vet school I would be testing horses ponies and minis and running titers and getting the vaccination data for horses and find the genetic links. We as horse people already know in our hearts there are links, just need the supporting data. I don't believe in no-vaccination, but I do believe in reduced vaccination and titer checking.

cheers. PS, The american veterinarian association is already recommending 3-5 years apart on dog shots now. Any vet that suggests a vaccine protocol at less than 3 year intervals is just in it for the money IMO.