Enlighten me gently please!

[MountainMeadows]

OK, I guess I am a dumb as a box of rocks -- so please forgive my ignorance, BUT ------ what make a Breed a Breed, vs just being a Registry?

I get that a breed would suggest that the parentage is "pure", product being produced can be traced -- but really folks without DNA-PQ how can we guarantee that at all? I might be mistaken, but I don't believe that ASPC requires that the ponies be DNA-Parent Qualified to get registration papers - PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

What that really means folks that it is the "honor system" -- well, not to be a wet blanket, but we know how well that TRULY works -- I am quite positive that there are many ASPC papered ponies that don't have parents on them that the papers say they do -- just as there are many AMHR horses/ponies that don't have correct parents on them as well, and there are many AMHA that are incorrect, but that is slowly changing because AMHA does require all offspring to be PQ'd nowadays.

So, really, what makes a BREED a BREED if DNQ-PQ'ing isn't REQUIRED of EVERY FOAL produced. Sure you can "claim" something, but that really doesn't make it the truth.

So back to what makes it a BREED? Is it that ALL offspring of 2 Registered parents are then elible for registration papers - regardless of size or type? Again I question -- where is the proof that the resulting offspring IS of the 2 parents specified?

Hope I have all this confused and then I truly am as dumb as a box of rocks -- looking for GENTLE enlightenment folks!

Stacy

 

[ruffian]

Whew - great question - I'm watiing with a worm on my tongue!!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I'd like to hear the explanation as well. Very good questions/points Stacy.

On a side note, I've owned one ASPC pony in my life. I "rescued" him from an auction - he had strangles and was in terrible shape but I couldn't resist those eyes.

As time went on and he eventually fully recovered and finished maturing I happened to become associated with his "breeder." I use that term very loosely. One day I asked was it common to breed full brother to full sister? His question was "why do you ask?" I said "well Buck's parents are full siblings and I just wondered if that was common in ponies." His response was "oh, I really messed that one up! I just pull out registration papers and put down whomever I want the parents to be. I didn't realize I picked full siblings!" And he laughed.

He said the sire was actually a grade pony and the dam was a hackney mare. Had nothing to do with who was listed on his papers.

I learned a lot that day...I lot I didn't want to know. But, having that hackney momma sure explained why Buck was so high-steppin!

FYI, Buck now lives back with his "breeder" and was gelded before leaving my property.

 

[Karen S]

Definition of Breed (Noun)-a group, or stock, of animals or plants descended from common ancestors and having similar characteristics.

Definition of Registry (Noun) - • n office where registers are kept

• an official record or list; register

The ASPC/AMHR Registry is the official office of records (breeding) of the American Shetland Pony and American Miniature horse. A place where the recordings are listed and held and a certificate given showing the pedigree (ancestry) of an animal.

Just like we Americans, we have an ancestry from whom we came from by the evidence of a birth certificate. Are we DNA’d and parent qualified? Some are and some aren’t. The human race probably has some of the same problems with ancestry as our horses do. There are some Shetland members within our registry that already have their Shetlands DNA’d as well as some miniature breeders. There are probably more honest breeders these days than were in the past. I know about my breeding program, why, because I have one stallion and three mares and I hand breed. So I do know when (what day)time of day when bred. I do consider myself an honest breeder and would certainly have no problem with DNAing my horses if I was required to do so. I cannot question the integrity of the breeders before me and their practices. I can only go by what’s on my horses papers to be true and correct and I’m sure that if it was possible to check back into those papers I might find that they are not who they claim they are. All I can attest to is what I have done from the date to which we started our breeding program from the one stallion and the three mares to which I breed every year. The resulting offspring are who they are, but if anyone was to question them I again would have no problem proving parentage of those that I have bred.

Good questions.....my perspective regarding the subject.

Thanks Stacy

Karen

 

[MountainMeadows]

Hi Karen & all - my point exactly -- soooo, what makes AMHA a Registry and ASPC a breed?

Stac

 

[~Lisa~]

What that really means folks that it is the "honor system" -- well, not to be a wet blanket, but we know how well that TRULY works -- I am quite positive that there are many ASPC papered ponies that don't have parents on them that the papers say they do -- just as there are many AMHR horses/ponies that don't have correct parents on them as well, and there are many AMHA that are incorrect, but that is slowly changing because AMHA does require all offspring to be PQ'd nowadays.

Well you are very correct there heck there have been appaloosa ASPC ponies registered among others and of course the same happens in AMHR and well even with DNA it can happen in AMHA as well.

While starting out with DNA it is really only as honest as the person pulling the mane hairs. When AMHA started the whole DNA and PQ thing I was fairly new andI had more then one breeder tell me ways to get around it. All you needed to do was buy a set of papers is what they told me....

All it takes is a set of papers and any ol horse to be "the horse" on the papers to DNA and now you can PQ your foals to Mr Any horse.. simply cause you had a set of papers and designated them to Mr Any Horse.

have to PQ a horse.. no worries just make sure got a full sibling(on paper) to offspring of MR Any Horse... well go ahead and pull hair from a full sibling and apply results to any offspring of (or not of) Mr Any Horse..

Of course I do believe that the more horses that are DNA'd and PQ'd the harder it gets to cheat with that and I do think it is something we should put in place

Until that point I do not believe there is any part of our association that is a "pure" breed

 

[wildhorses]

I will never, never, never understand how we can breed a miniature to a miniature and then say it is not a miniature!!! This is what AMHA and AMHR does if the horse is too tall for their "standard".

This is what a breed is to me. A registry is simply an organization that keeps track of breeding records and pedigrees...and charges insane amounts of money to do so.

My opinion is and always will be that no matter what if I breed my registered miniature stallion to my registered miniature mare, the resulting offspring should be a miniature horse...no matter the height.

Works for APHA, AQHA, etc. There have been some huge lawsuits with breed registries relating to this in the past. I think in the future the same may happen in AMHA and AMHR. It's time to get rid of the height restrictions. THE TIME HAS COME! We need to recognize all our heritage in our registries. I am tired of my horses that are 34.50 inches being not good enough to be registered AMHA.

Until this changes we will never be recognized as a breed, only a registry.

I will never understand who decided that 34 inches was the perfect maximum height for AMHA horses and 38 inches for AMHR horses. Was this number just drawn out of a hat???

 

[valshingle]

Just my humble opinion....

To me AMHA and AMHR can't decide if they want to be breed or height registries. I am not familiar enough with ASPC to comment. I don't think that they can have it both ways. Either all offspring of registered parents receive papers, regardless of their height (Breed) OR all horses at or under 34" or 38" (depending on association) are eligible for registration with continual hardshipping allowed (Height Registry).

But that's just my opinion...

 

[Devon]

Just my humble opinion....

To me AMHA and AMHR can't decide if they want to be breed or height registries. I am not familiar enough with ASPC to comment. I don't think that they can have it both ways. Either all offspring of registered parents receive papers, regardless of their height (Breed) OR all horses at or under 34" or 38" (depending on association) are eligible for registration with continual hardshipping allowed (Height Registry).

But that's just my opinion...

Agreed completely makes 100 percent sense

 

[disneyhorse]

Just my humble opinion....

To me AMHA and AMHR can't decide if they want to be breed or height registries. I am not familiar enough with ASPC to comment. I don't think that they can have it both ways. Either all offspring of registered parents receive papers, regardless of their height (Breed) OR all horses at or under 34" or 38" (depending on association) are eligible for registration with continual hardshipping allowed (Height Registry).

But that's just my opinion...

I also totally agree with this!

 

[Minimor]

Whether it's a breed or not has nothing to do with DNA. After all, Morgans were a breed long before there was any DNA testing, or even any bloodtyping--same with Arabians and Saddlebreds and Welsh and any number of other breeds.

A registry takes money from owners and gives out registration papers, but the animals that registry registers may not be an actual breed--they might be crossbred, or perhaps of completely unknown breeding. They just need to be a certain color (palomino, or buckskin, as two examples) or maybe have a certain eye color (isn't there a registry for blue eyed horses?) or be a certain size (Miniature).

The Mini registries are closer to a breed than some registries are--with hardshipping closed (or soon to close in AMHA) at least any foals registered will need to be off of two registered parents--I'd say that's a step closer to being a breed. However, in order to achieve real breed status IMO the Mini registries are going to have to accept that any foal that has two registered parents is eligible to be registered and will keep its papers no matter how tall it is at maturity. Being a breed means--or should mean--that papres are not revoked if the horse goes over the height limit for that breed. The horse may not be eligible to show, but it does keep its papers.

 

[kaykay]

Im all for DNA and I do think we will see that happen sometime in the future for ASPC/AMHR. But as said nothing is fool proof. I am starting to DNA mine as I have the money and will continue. I just think when its implemented it has to be slowly so that people have time to spread them out and DNA them so its not a financial hardship. I also wish we could all use the same company for DNA so it crosses for all 3 registries but that probably wont happen.

There have been breeders that cheated on papers for AMHA ASPC/AMHR cheating knows no boundaries unfortunately.

I do think part of the reason that AMHA and AMHR have waited to become a "breed" is because of the height limit issues. We all know once they become a breed you can no longer oust a horse because it goes over a size limit.

ASPC horses that go over the height cannot show but they do not lose their papers.

I have also heard other people say that to be a "breed" you have to set a type and the type has to be consistent. That would be very hard to do in miniatures unless they were separated into divisions. And as many know that show ASPC the divison/type thing doesnt always work either.

I know if you read John Eberths statements he doesnt feel the gene pool is big enough to close yet, but as with anything else some disagree with that.

I do wonder if AMHA will really close? I get why it was done but I think they maybe shooting themselves in the foot as they do make quite a bit of money hardshipping.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I agree it really doesn't have much to do with DNA its a matter if AMHA and/or AMHR decides whether or not they want to stick to height where all miniatures are 38" and under or allow to become a breed where even if you go over 38" you are still allowed to breed that horse and the foal will still allow registration. I think thats whats really going to determine if you are a breed or not. Also you have to close the registeries from hardshipping. If you just want to go by height then you might as well open the registeries back up and allow unregistered horses in too. DNA will be seen in the future with AMHR/ASPC IMO. That will be another step towards the right direction.

Ask yourself this and I have been repeating this over and over again. Whats the difference between a height registry and a color registry? Not much honestly. Shoot even in color registeries they still allow breeding papers on solid colored horses out of pinto horses. So should we as AMHA and AMHR be stuck in the gutter and compare ourselves the same as a color registry? Its time to step up.

Also as Kay has said it may very well be hard to set a breed type, there is so many different types, but I think the above info would really help out alot.

 

[stormy]

Not sure the type thing is relevent, standard of perfection yes but don't know of any breed that has only one type in the registry. Also papers may be retained however could be non-breeding and non-showing papers. There is precedent for this in AQHA.

 

[txminipinto]

Lisa, I would like to know what appaloosa's or POA's have been registered as shetlands because I sure haven't seen any!

Like others have said, as long as AMHA and AMHR define a miniature horse based on its height, the miniature horse will never be taken seriously as a breed. In my eyes, I believe it is a breed as we can repeat type and height to some extent however, as long as papers are pulled we are doing a disservice to the miniature horse as a breed.

 

[stormy]

Just a thought...what would happen with visible dwarfs born to two registered parents in such a registry??

 

[uwharrie]

To me ( coming from dogs and big horses) a Breed is an animal that comes from a generations of animals of the same breed. They breed true. There is a written standard of perfection. offspring is easily to identify as being that particular breed. Stud books are rarely open ( it has happened with some AKC dog breeds but only under careful control)If offspring are from two registered parents they too can be registered. With dogs if they have a disqualifing fault (size, color ect) they are still registrable, they just cannot be shown.

I don't know that minis will ever be more than a height registry since there are so many different types (almost sub-breeds or as in dogs varieties)

 

[~Lisa~]

Lisa, I would like to know what appaloosa's or POA's have been registered as shetlands because I sure haven't seen any!

Yes Carin there was I will not say by whom here on a public forum as I only have the names 2nd hand they are out there though which is why the conversation came up at Convention... - a bizzare conversation to say the least - when they were discussing I am not sure who it was from the office at this moment have to think about that- that an appalossa would have to be registered as a pinto since there is no place for appy coloring made several of us do a double take for sure.

 

[Margo_C-T]

About visible dwarves---it should not be a problem to make a case, rule-wise, to exclude from registry animals with genetic deformities, because, how could any good argument be made that it was ethical to risk perpetrating such deformities? These ARE domestic animals, and mankind is nowadays largely responsible for the direction their reproduction takes; given the proven health/wellness/soundness problems for such animals, it should only be common sense to not deliberately create them!

Time was that many if not most/all equine breeds WERE of a pretty singular and usually, distinctive and quickly-identifiable, type. This is, for good or bad, not nearly as much the case anymore...case in point, the American Quarter Horse. I was around when the 'type' was much more singlular, believe me...now, most'halter' horses look like beef cattle, many WP horses look like slab-sided TBs, etc...JMO, before any of you start screaming....and many,MANY are NOT the ATHLETIC, ALL-AROUND animal that was once the vision. I think this is a HUGE loss...but, I digress.

Point is, the QH(and I'm not including the 'Foundation' offshoot in this assessment)is certainly NOT of singular type nowadays, and as far as I can see, neither are a number of other breeds. So, having multiple types is not without precedent, and is clearly widely accepted in the equine world today(I would add--it should be a 'given that GOOD BASIC conformation must always be the major consideration!)I know that I personally do not want a 'mini Arab' type, at least what is often being called that currently;in miniature horses, I like a truly 'middle of the road' in type, leaning toward the originally ATHLETIC QH with perhaps a dash of a Morgan look...and would really NOT want there to not be plentiful quality choices in that regard!

I agree with those who have opined that the miniature horse registries need to decide what they want to be! I am with those who favor a BREED, meaning NOT losing papers when the horse is genuinely the product of a registered Miniature sire AND dam. OK, don't let them show in breed-sanctioned classes, but do NOT unfairly(IMO)deprive them of their heritage by 'pulling' their papers. Allow them to be bred(or perhaps, just ADULT mares that fall into this category, nothing under 3 years at breeding, no stallions?), then require the offspring to wait until age 3 AND an 'official' measurement to be shown in a sanctioned show? Among other things, this would help keep the available gene pool larger and more diverse! Anyone who is a serious horseperson and has decent experience in miniatures knows that taller parents OFTEN produce shorter offspring...and sometimes, just the opposite. It is very short-sighted to summarily eject horses on this basis alone.

That said...personally, I believe there is a lot of 'double-standard/hypocrisy' in the 'fear' of allowing 'oversized' horses to remain papered....how many that ARE actually 'oversized' do you think are at home being bred? How many in the past? How often do horses taken to sanctioned shows ACTUALLY 'measure out', and of those, how many do YOU know of that had actually HAD their papers 'pulled'?? IMO, there is a LOT of 'envelope-pushing' happening, with the aim of avoiding having to actually ENFORCE the rules that are staunchly defended and promoted(i.e..'NO horses over...(fill in the blank) inches tall), yada, yada....

Margo

 

[Tony]

Margo, you always write so well! Thanks.