Felt Scammed?

[Seashells]

Over the years, I've purchased several minis out of state, with wonderful results.

However, several months ago I purchased one mini horse about 50 miles from me and found it wasn't as described (it had bad habits). Yes, I know.....I should have driven out to see her first, but the photos and telephone conversations were really good...I just treated it like an out of state purchase and paid my horse shoer to deliver her to me.

She was so beautiful and I tried to deal with her annoying and tiresome antics, but over the weeks nothing changed... and I was beat up over it (this horse was strong, and set in her ways).

I emailed the seller to ask if he would like to purchase her back, he said no. Then, I advertised her locally and lost a couple hundred in price.... but she went to a home that was informed of her issues and they were prepared and willing to take her (no surprises for them).

That was an frustrating experience for me, and wasn't something I put a lot of money into so financially it didn't hurt.....but now I'm wondering how many others have had similar experiences? Has a horse you purchased sight unseen turned out to be a scam or flop? How did you handle it?

 

[mmmorgans]

I've had a few very bad dealings. In every case - the seller would do nothing to compensate for the misrepresentation. So - it is really hard to trust anyone now - and I am always saying "Buyer Beware"!!!!!!!!!

I have purchased horses that are several inches taller than I was told - horses that have had not handling and have been a challenge - horses that were starving to death - bred mares that were open (and I suspect never had been bred) - a bred mare that ended up having a part shetland colt - not an AMHA/AMHR baby - I could go on - but I think you get the picture!!!!!

I tend to be a very trusting person - as I am completely and totally honest with others. But I guess not everyone is honest and trustworthy. A person should always go and see the horse - not just accept photos. And a contract is of utmost importance - then things will be clear on who is responsible for what, etc.

 

[kaykay]

I dont know the whole situation so really hard to say. But I will say that horses act differently in different environments and different handlers. I sold a stallion years ago and warned the owner that he could be a handful. I also told her he could not be pastured with other stallions/geldings and should not share a fence line with them. She took him home and later sent me pictures of him pastured with another stallion and a gelding! I was in shock.

Another time I sold 2 mares in a package. I told them that mare A was not good with kids and really not a people person and that mare B was very friendly and was great with people etc. Well once they went to another herd their pecking order changed. Mare A she insisted was very good with kids and friendly while mare B was more to herself and not wanting to be petted. Again I was in shock.

But I am sorry you went through that.

 

[Songcatcher]

I dont know the whole situation so really hard to say. But I will say that horses act differently in different environments and different handlers. I sold a stallion years ago and warned the owner that he could be a handful. I also told her he could not be pastured with other stallions/geldings and should not share a fence line with them. She took him home and later sent me pictures of him pastured with another stallion and a gelding! I was in shock.
Another time I sold 2 mares in a package. I told them that mare A was not good with kids and really not a people person and that mare B was very friendly and was great with people etc. Well once they went to another herd their pecking order changed. Mare A she insisted was very good with kids and friendly while mare B was more to herself and not wanting to be petted. Again I was in shock.

But I am sorry you went through that.

What an excellent example of how situations change. Too many people are too eager to accuse someone of misrepresenting a horse when in fact, the horse's attitude may change in different situations, just as a human's attitude may change in different situations. Nothing is ever certain when dealing with a live animal.

 

[Calekio]

I think when you buy unseen you do tend to take some sort of risk. I've had several that haven't turn out to be what i thought.... the classic one was the well bred, papered mare.... who arrived... with a passport... with no papers! Oddly enough the seller wouldn't contact me after that so i ended up selling her on for half what i paid for her!

However had also brought some i've seen.... that the problem have arised when i got home.. one stallion i went to see was very timid and weary, the owners grabbed him to show him to me and he was so much like a coiled spring the whole time, wasn't till i got him home i relise the extent of his fear and the abuse his suffered, they told me he was a very naughty stallion who need very firm handling..., he was in fact totally terrified and was only acting up to try and get away from what he was sure was going to kill him.

Also brought a mare who was a darling when i saw her, perfect in every way, owner loaded her with just a head collar on which i didn't find suspecious till i got home..... put a leadrope on her... and she bolted... turned out she was terrified of ropes to the point you couldn't even lead her with one!

 

[Jill]

Did you ask about any bad habbits? Could these issues have been brought out by the enviroment at your place? Or have been present but not a problem at her previous place?

With a horse that close, really even many tmes that distance, I couldn't keep myself from going to meet / handle and see her in person. So that's maybe a good lesson to remember for next time.

However, I have bought 26 horses so far, unless I've forgotten someone, and I have not ever felt I was scammed or ripped off what so ever. Some times where as I became clearer in what I want to do with horses, the ones I previously bought no longer fit the game plan but the DID when I bought them.

It's hard to say reading your post because I don't know exactly what you found to be issues with the horse, however, in my own experience, the horses I have bought from a distance turned out to actually be better / nicer than I had anticipated and I've been happy with every purchase I have made. The horses were what I wanted at the time.

Additionally, I have made some wonderful friendships with people I have bought from and sold to.

 

[Carolyn R]

I think the majority of us have dealt with sellers that have been less than honest. At that point we need to step up and decide if we are going to try to recoupe what we put out or cut our losses and do the honorable thing. It is deffinately a buyer beware scenario, regardless of the distance.

Wether it be someones first mini and they are looking for a reputable seller (and keep in mind, there are those who appear to be wholesome, good breeders, that are anything but that) or if it is your 50th horse you are buying, you just have to proceed with caution if you are not going in person to get the horse.

With that said, yes, there are deffinately those horses that change behaviors according to the environment they are in.

All you can really do is chalk it up to experiance, cut your losses and, if it is truely a case of misrepresentation, never buy from that breeder again. I would/have even gone one step farther as I would not buy a horse with that farm name on it, even if it was from a third party who had purchased it.

Keep in mind, I can deal with a horse that has behavior issues, I am talking about things that are nondisputable, like bad legs, locking stifles, horrid bites, poor hoof care, old injuries that weren't mentioned.....

I would chalk it up to experiance and move on. Your only foolish if you don't learn from your mistakes.

Carolyn

I wanted to add in response to what is said below, yes, word of mouth does do it's own job, and yes, I also try to represent my horses as honestly as possible.

On the buying end, I don't know if I would call it scamming when the sale isn't as honorable as it should be, but I would say that a sellers integrity is not completely intact, "buyers proceed with caution."

 

[Genie]

I don't think anyone has really scammed me personally and if it happens I would definitely not buy again and also would make sure that "word of mouth" did its job.

In two cases I bought a horse which was going too cheaply at an auction, i.m.o., and because the auctioneer made "glowing remarks" I placed a bid and was the buyer.

That was my fault for not checking the horse before the auction, or checking the horse in the ring once I started to bid.

They both had bad bites.

In one case the auctioneer said to the handler" and that horse has a great bite, doesn't it?" and the handler checked the mouth and looked back to the auctioneer, not saying anything, one way of the other.

In the other case the auctioneer was reading from an owners' write up which stated the horse was shown extensively and the winner of many ribbons. I think there are "bite restrictions" and this horse would not have passed.

I will in future make sure I ask the question" does the horse have any bad habits or "quirks" that you want to mention?"

That gives the seller every opportunity to do the right thing or mention something they may have forgotten for the moment.

When I am selling a horse I will say why it does not fit in my program, or otherwise will say that it is priced that high because it is not a horse I am anxious to sell.

Because we are older our numbers are too high and I would like to get them down, so everything is for sale at a price.

I will always mention everything I know about the horse and my personal opinion of the horse.

I have had a couple of horses who needed more handling and a smaller herd environment.

I will take a loss on a horse to have them situated where they will be happier.

 

[Leeana]

I honestly represent my horses, i like when the buyer emails me photos and lets me know how they are doing and my #1 goal is to make that person/family/farm happy with that horse.

I have been very lucky thus far to have not be lied to when buying a horse, ive been very happy with all of the horses i have bought.

Additionally, I have made some wonderful friendships with people I have bought from and sold to.

Im like Jill, most of the people i buy from / sell to, i end up becoming close friends with and keeping in touch atleast once or twice a month.

 

[Bess Kelly]

I would like to ad one thing to the above wonderful facts........we must all remember that the handler's experience and personality can also play a part in the actions of an animal.

So, some things are interpretations or interactions that can change, between animal, handler, location, other animals at/on site, etc. Just ask Bonnie

While things -- such as he was gelded, not crypt, been bathed, been driven, "XX" tall (and clearly 3-4" different, not 1/4-1/2"), has had a foal for them ,etc........can be misrepresented and clearly not change by association with other outside issues -- personality can, opinions can, interpretations can.

Something to consider when buying or selling. An animal will "read" you and make own decisions.

 

[RobinRTrueJoy]

I agree that when environments change, so may personalities.

I once bought a mare that I was told would be quite a handful, but bought her anyway. She turned out to be the sweetest mare ever.

I have bought a 30" mare that suddenly was at 34" when she arrived. What stick were they using??

I recently sold a little mare that was very shy( I bought her that way) She improved some for me, but I thought would never be a cuddly girl. I told the new buyer about her. She is at her new home being kissed and loved on and is going to be a butterfly for halloween. Go figure!

Its always best, if a horse is within driving range, to go see it.

Buying horses and horses in general are not like mathematics. 2+2 doesn't always equal 4 with horses. Live creatures react differently to different situations.

Sometimes we may all feel a bit scammed. But sometimes its not the sellers fault.

Robin

 

[ohmt]

I do think alot of the personality stuff is just the handler and/or the environment. I've bought two stallions that were HUGE handfuls! The first one would not behave for the man that owned him. He was terrible when the man unloaded him off the trailer and was very bad about pulling. But he's always been an angel with me. I actually call him my marshmallow man...he's the one that I give to the small children that come that want to play with a horse. I'd trust him with anybody now.

Another stallion was young and was still a handful when I got him. He had a rearing and biting problem and was terrible about pulling (Can you tell I don't like it when my horses decide to lead me??). The biting stopped fast after i would smack him on the nose when he'd do it. The rearing stopped after I held him up a couple of times. He still pulls a bit but he's young and full of testosterone...he's TONS better...a very good boy!

Last year we picked up 2 mares in Minnesota for a friend that lives in Wyoming and brought them home and bred them to one of our stallions. The two mares were supposed to be appaloosa and AMHA/AMHR. The small one was supposed to be 31" and the tall one 33". Well...only one was appy and she just had mottling and striped hooves. They were both AMHA/AMHR but the small one was 33" and the tall one was 36". Yeah...ummm...that was actually a shock. That supposedly 33" mare was the biggest horse on our farm and I have a 34.5" mare and a 35.5" mare. Plus, the big one was very very skittish. She was very athletic and fit and boy could she run (and run me over!). It was terrible trying to catch her and I didn't want to make the situation worse so it'd take me a good hour to get her. I round penned her for about a month and worked with her legs (she would not let anyone touch her legs...she'd kick like crazy and get really nervous). She still didn't like being caught but I think by the end of she trusted me so it wouldn't take so long and she'd let me touch her. This summer I went to visit her and her beautiful and TINY black blanketed appy filly and she came up and let me touch her nose

It was very rewarding for me.

---Hope you have better experiences with purchases. I definitely would've gone to see the mare if she was that close to me before buying. I once drove from ND to Illinois to look at a colt and then had to make the trip again to pick him up. Another thing that I always ask for when I can go look at a horse in person is references. And get at least 2 of them. I also always ask about temperament and quirks. They don't usually turn me off as I kind of like challenges but it's always nice to know what you're getting yourself into beforehand.

 

[minie812]

Gosh...If you were that close it probably would have been good to go look at her. Horses sure can change in a different envirorment and different pecking order for sure. I have one mare that will not be handled at all but I was told in advance but boy she sure throws some beautiful babies. I have bought several sight unseen and really asked for photos and asked lots of questions and if I picked them up myself then final payment was given AFTER I checked the horse out!

 

[Katiean]

I have bought 3 mares so far. Two were pergnent and only one of them I saw and handled before I bought her. She was afraid of everyone and I knew it. My neice would take her for walks and she learned to trust her. She hates everyone else. She will allow others to handle her but she took a big hunk out of the farriers arm (can you say "get a new farrier?"). My second mare was a love from the time she got off the trailer. Her one BIG bad habbit is she opens gates. I mean latched and chained gates. Then there is my 3rd mare. I didn't see her until she was 1/2 paid for and I brought her home. Jessie went out in the round pen with the mare and she was easy to handle. At that point the former owner told me the mare has a hard time when it comes to change. She said she got diarea moving from a stall to a paddock. I took her home and there is so much going on around here that she got a little soft for 2 days but then hasn't had a problem since. I don't think I have been scammed yet.

 

[Kendra]

We've bought a number of horses, particularly over the internet, that didn't end up being what we wanted. Generally though, it certainly wasn't because they were mis-represented! Horses that grew after we got them are certainly not the sellers fault, and the seller of the one that ended up costing extra to geld as he was cryptorchid probably didn't even know. The only one where we feel scammed ... well, I'm still not sure the fact that an unproven (if expensive and well-bred) stallion turned out the be a very poor producer is the sellers fault. The fact that he was sold as broke to drive and is absolutely (and dangerously) terrified of carts on the other hand .... what if we'd been beginners and had just gone ahead and hooked him up? We've had him for about 2.5 years now (been gelded for 1.5 years) and though we've hooked him a couple times to a wagon with a second, calmer horse with him, he still needs a lot of work to get over whatever it was that made an otherwise quiet and sensible boy so frightened.

I'm not sure that behaviour is something that can be mis-represented. After all, behaviour that I find unacceptable, someone else might think is cute, or vice versa. And a horse that one person gets along with, another might not at all ... we have a horse that just knows how to push my buttons, but he's a sweetheart for everyone else around here.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

The biggest hits we took were in the beginning when my grandparents were first buying minis and didn't know enough about them to ask the right questions. I think before the internet people could actually get away with much much more. The online studbook has been invaluable to me when checking a horse's production record. For example, in the 80's we picked up a half-sister to Egyptian King for $8500. She was advertised as a "great producer." Yeah...We had her for over 15 years without a single foal. The studbook shows her as having one foal as a three year old and nothing after.

Another way the internet helps is through word of mouth. It's a lot easier now to ask around and find out about unethical sellers than it was back then. One of the big early breeders sold us a mare for $10,000. He advertised her as Nationals quality, a great producer, and confirmed in foal. What we actually got was an unproven, open draft type mare who produced one foal in her lifetime and then only with the assistance of regumate and a reproductive vet. Since coming online several years ago, I've heard some pretty interesting things about this breeder that might have prevented the sale back then.

When I was still a teenager and looking for a show horse, we bought a yearling stallion that was advertised as being suitable for an amateur and "very showy...Mr. Personality." Word to the wise: Mr. Personality apparently means "a head shy biter and kicker." At his first show with us, he broke his halter in the ring; it took three people to corner him. At the other end of the spectrum, a more honest seller sold me a mare a few years ago with the warning that she was hard to catch. In truth, she had had a nerve halter used on her and just had very negative associations with haltering. Years of gentle handling have brought her around, and she pretty much halters herself now.

These were all in-person sales. I've purchased at least ten horses through the internet and only had one that I felt was significantly misrepresented. (Her sellers repeatedly assured me that she was open only for her to foal the week before transport was scheduled. Then she showed up so skinny that her spine and hip bones looked like a shovel.) Then again, I'm huge on questions. There have been times when I have inquired on a horse and it was clear that the seller had every intention of "scamming" anyone they could, and other times when the owner clearly just didn't know any better. In my experience, the top three issues for false advertising seem to be:

1.) Height

2.) Production Record

3.) Show Quality

 

[Jill]

I hope this is okay to say (mods if not, I know you will take care of it...)

Personally, I've never been scammed but I know of some people who were not dealt with fairly in a purchase. When the sales are from LB's Sales board and valid issues brought to ML's attention, she will not allow a dishonest seller to advertise on LB's Sales Board. She really does do what she can to look out for "us", but remember in buying horses, there is a lot of room for a seller to have one opinion of a horse and the buyer to have another -- without either of them honestly being wrong.

 

[ruffian]

My biggest scam was buying a 2YO colt from a "reputable" breeder only to find out that he was missing one rather important part. Took months of e-mails and letters to get compensation for what should have been a herd sire but ended up a $700 vet bill for cryptorchid gelding.

I had one person who was very interested in a stallion I had as a yearling. She came up and visited, and I told her he was a handful and needed firm handling. Not mean or rough, just to know who was boss. I asked what her fencing situation was and was told he would have his own pen and get daily attention. Yeah, well. after one week, she called wanting to bring him back. He was unmanageable, breaking through fences, couldnt' catch him. I was ticked, but told her to bring him on back. The person who came with her gave me the true story. She put him between 2 mares IN SEASON in a double strand of electric fence. My stallions are in paneled runs, and I had told her he had never seen electric. Duh - he's going to run through the fence and never feel it, and then certainly be hard to catch!! Also found out she had 2 horses one old mare and one old gelding that she had owned for 2 months, but had advertised herself as "experienced" with horses.

I had told her I would give her credit on another horse, but after finding out the facts decided to just give her the money.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Another point is did you ask about habits and did they say there were any/not any... a seller is not required to disclose anything negative about their horse, but if they specifically LIE about it they can be held accountable. But many times with bad habits/medical issues its didn't ask/don't tell... They technically may not be in the wrong, but its not exactly moral in my opinion. I try to make exhaustive lists of questions and get it all in writing (my sales contracts are upwards of 8 pages long).

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

As a buyer/seller - what I might find as easy to handle might be difficult for someone else and vice versa. Horses do change personalities in different settings especially going from a small to large herd environment or large to small. A horse I recently aquired kicks - I'm so not use to that - he double barrelled me once - I don't think he'll be doing it again, but I'm not use to kickers as my herd doesn't kick/bite aggressively (okay a couple of overzealous mares with newborns have thought about it!) But this guy caught me off guard!

I've had a few 'misrepresented' purchases - a mare that foaled at the sellers had the cutest tiny colt - a dwarf! This mare has a bit of an attitude - can we say @#$@#$ on hooves! Great broodmare - oh we forgot to mention the horrid diastochia and she's infertile? Those are misrepsentations IMHO, but you learn to ask the right questions, and you learn what type of seller you want to be by NOT acting like a @#$#@ that some thing is okay to do. Omitting known facts, to me, while maybe not illegal is just as bad as lying.

Personally as a seller, I would rather be as truthful as I can (you can't always tell about personality changes), as I want the horse to have a permanent home not be sold numerous times or mistreated.

I'm going today to bring home a mare that the buyer can't keep for personal reasons. I could have said no, but I would personally stress about where this mare went and would rather have her back here than worry.

Nathan - too funny about the sales contract!! Mine use to be 2 pages and I felt it was too short, but people complained so I've trimmed it to one page unless there are specific warranties being addressed.