For discussion: AMHR: Ponies being

[Getitia]

To provide some food for thought. We started showing at the Nationals back over ten years ago..... A decade is a long time for sure in horse breeding terms and my how the breed has evolved during this time period and IMO for the better!

If you think Pony is a four letter word now, in the early 90's a huge number of miniature people "hissed" when they said the word

. Ten years ago, I was not pleased with the results of our breeding program and coming from a big horse background, I felt that the majority of miniatures to which I was being exposed, had one or more of the following faults: bad croups, shallow hips, steep stifles, short low tied in necks, ewe necks, upright shoulders, poor movement and/or unattractives heads. So I felt we needed to make some changes to our breeding program, thus we began our search for the most conformationally correct, best moving stock available that also had good dispositions - regardless of paperwork.

A friend of mine had went down to Sweetwater in 1995 and purchased some weanlings including a leggy chestnut colt - Dam and sire were both amha only and both were small(the foal was still nursing on the dam), In fact the sire was a 31 inch son of Egyptian King...... When I saw the colt - I purchased him as the new owner did not want to keep a colt that would go over and I felt this colt had so many things "conformationally" that was lacking in our program. Well he grew and grew and grew over the winter. So we turned in his AMHA papers and started showing him in the then AMHR "B" division and he did very, very well......even at the National level over a several year period. Now the interesting aspect of this story is that everyone "thought" by looking at him, he was a Purebred shetland. So if you were looking at this "yearling" photo by today's show standards ten years later - would you guess just by looking that he was a miniature or a shetland?

It really is impossible to tell just by "looking" at a horse how it is registered. Neither can the judges.

 

[Sue_C.]

I actually don't see the problem if it has the papers it can show...... again if the hardship rules bother you that much then lobby for them to be closed..

The double registered one's aren't the problem here are they? I thought this whole post was about registered shetlands showing against registered miniatures in the same classes. If the papers are AMHR, then, yes, they should be allowed to compete, but NOT ASPC in an AMHR class. Did I misinterpret this whole thread. DUH???

Here is the original post...

why are they being shown in the same classes? It is because classes are according to height, if a taller miniature is at the top of a height class, it will compete against a shetland at the bottom of it's height, as in a smaller size shetland. Just how in the world can a judge be expected to judge a class where there are both miniatures and shetlands? Why can't they be separated out??

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

sue yse this whole thread is about a horse with BOTH papers opting to show AMHR and you are right if you have the papers then show away!

This is about people feeling that shetlands (double reg some even triple reg with AMHA as well) shouldnt be allowed to show against those that are single reg.

 

[Miniv]

Getitia, I see your point. Your colt is a beautiful example of what people are showing as "classic miniature shetlands"......registered both ASPC and AMHR.

What it comes down to is what has been posted previously...... The American Miniature Horse is a HEIGHT registry! Period.

MA

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]This is my 32 inch miniature stallion. He is presently registered with amhr and will be amha registered at age 5. He IS 32 inchest tall. Does the fact that he also is a Shetland negate the fact that he is a miniature horse. He has 100 years of shetland heritage behind him and foundation seal papers. Does that stop him from being a mini and showing as a mini?[/SIZE]

No it doesnt! 32" in anyones book spells miniature horse.

Lyn

 

[Buckskin gal]

I just hope people who want both AMHR/Aspc ponies will realize that they may be doing something that will harm the AMHR horse on down the road. As we all know, Shetlands, even though they were large enough to ride and drive, had the market fall on them...prices on them dropped. What I see as possibly happening is if everyone jumps on the bandwagon to have the Shetland / Miniatures soon the market will be flooded with them and again the prices will fall. Only time will tell but I think many of us know that there has been more of a market for Miniatures than Shetlands and the public may just decide they already had enough of the Shetlands and may decide the heck with it. No glass ball here but it is something to think about. Of course what is winning one day will not necessarily win the next so be prepared to another fad in the furure. The leggier, slim bodied horse is elegant if kept in porportion, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to own one. Personally I hope that judges will keep in mind that a Miniature can represent any breed....Arabian, Morgan, Throughbred, appy, etc. so they don't get too hung up on just the look of a Shetland. JMHO

 

[Buckskin gal]

I am amazed that someone will actually say "Judges are paid to place what THEY like best" It probably holds a lot of truth, but really a judge should only be judging by a standard of perfection and not just by what they like the best. If this were truly the case then standards of perfection may as well be done away with and people can just go watch to see what a judge likes best and breed for that!! Sorry Erica, but I truly hope it is not that way! Mary

A horse show is simply "may the best horse win" - so no matter if a horse has "pony" papers, "mini" papers, "pinto" papers, "World Class" papers - the horse is ONLY as good as it's flesh lets it be.  Papers don't mean anything if the "horse" isn't there.  Best conformation, Show attitude, Conditioning, Handling  all come into play out in the Ring, papers don't IMO.  You get a very few judges that will pick people - but I rarely see judges that will pick a horse just because of bloodlines.
Judges are paid to place what THEY like best. 

If I get beat by a good horse nothing is wrong with that, gives you some motivation to breed better ones.

Had to add that I have a Modern shetland mare who is a LOVE, but has "show" in her too.  Alert, Fancy, and Full of Energy, but not at all what I call unhandable.

456683[/snapback]

​

 

[Buckskin gal]

So very true but not everyone knows or accepts that...thanks for saying it.!

Mary

[.. So, the AMHR registry is ONLY CLOSED to HONEST people..

The ASPC/AMHR closed the books to add marketability to the Shetland Pony market... and it worked.

456741[/snapback]

​

 

[user 488]

I am amazed that someone will actually say "Judges are paid to place what THEY like best" It probably holds a lot of truth, but really a judge should only be judging by a standard of perfection and not just by what they like the best.

456792[/snapback]

​

There is NOTHING amazing about judges having personal preferences. You can stick to the standard of perfection and you can stick to what is correct and still pin the "TYPE" that you like. You are absolutely paying a judge for his PERSONAL OPINION. And if you do not what to hear someones opinion on your horse than again, don't show. Nothing has changed about that for all the years I have been showing and the generation before me and before that. As long as people have opinions nothing will change.

I think too many people get "TYPE" mixed up with correctness.

Edited to say.......this is a NEVERENDING STORY...........there are always going to be people that are in an uproar about something concerning showing their horses.

There will ALWAYS be winners and there will ALWAYS be losers.

 

[Margo_C-T]

A lively, passionate, and interesting discussion-always worthwhile, IMO!

My belief is that the AMHR was begun to have a vehicle to revitalize the "small"end of the Shetland market --and that the AMHR always HAS BEEN, and STILL IS, the "Cinderella"of the ASPC(meaning, the poorly-regarded, unappreciated stepchild!)My gosh, look at their practices over the years, regarding such things as directorships....and yet, as has been pointed out, which branch is providing the MAJOR support for the organization?('taint the ASPC....)! Adding marketability to Shetlands ,and/or the prospect of adding to the paying customer base of the registry(as when the B division in Miniatures was created, well AFTER the formation of the AMHR by ASPC-sorry, Susanne, but I don't believe the powers-that-be there were "wisely"positioning themselves to benefit from an as-yet-unrealized 'boom' in interest in driving when they did so)seems to me to have pretty much been the motivating force behind many of the decisions made by the ASPC; perhaps, not always with ANYTHING else in mind....which I think is pretty short-sighted, to say the least. It is hard for me to see evidence, in the manner that the ASPC/AMHR does business, that their first regard is for the integrity/betterment of the breed(i.e., no program for DNA, no requirement for so much as a single photograph for registration.)I have no problem with the reality that Miniature Horses, in the majority, came from Shetlands-though when I first started, it was as has been described by others-NO ONE(at least in AMHA)would acknowledge the Shetland 'connection'. To show AMHR, a horse HAS TO have AMHR papers; thus, a papered ASPC-only horse would have to be hardshipped into AMHR, and thereafter would be entirely entitled to choose to show AMHR instead of ASPC at any given show. I see much validity of feelings on BOTH sides of this issue, and wouldn't presume to say which is "right"....but do understand how those who don't feel they should be having to show in Miniature classes against registered Shetlands, may feel-yes, a very thorny issue, indeed.

Miniatures ARE a height registry-and I am one who does appreciate the fact that within that parameter, various types are perfectly acceptable-though I strongly disagree with the notion that one "must" follow the trends of what is currently winning-the flaws in THAT thinking are being discussed fully on another thread!

(With all due respect to the person who mentioned it: As for AMHA having "tighter height restrictions"-surely, you jest? Have you been to an AMHA show, at any level, lately, and observed the measuring??)

 

[Buckskin gal]

I didn't say that it is amazing that judges have personal preferences...I know that clearly!!

There is NOTHING amazing about judges having personal preferences. You can stick to the standard of perfection and you can stick to what is correct and still pin the "TYPE" that you like. You are absolutely paying a judge for his PERSONAL OPINION. And if you do not what to hear someones opinion on your horse than aga, don't show. Nothing has changed about that for all the years I have been showing and the generation before me and before that. As long as people have opinions nothing will change.

I think too many people get "TYPE" mixed up with correctness.

456798[/snapback]

​

 

[user 488]

Buckskin......I KNOW you didn't say it.......I was just quoting from you and taking it further. But you did say:

It probably holds a lot of truth, but really a judge should only be judging by a standard of perfection and not just by what they like the best.

I don't see what you are getting at...............again, they are judging by a standard of perfection. It's just sometimes not your standard of perfection

(and I don't mean that personally)

Bottom line........You enter a show to be judged by a carded judge. You are only paying for that opinion. That is all it is. If you cannot deal with it then I suggest you don't waste your time or money.

 

[runamuk]

With all due respect to the person who mentioned it: As for AMHA having "tighter height restrictions"-surely, you jest? Have you been to an AMHA show, at any level, lately, and observed the measuring??)

That would be me and simply said because at this point the vast majority of aspc's are in the 34-38 category.......there are some that qualify for the 34 and under however AMHA only allows up to 34 so my logic is that if you don't want to compete with ALL those shetlands show amha

and the honesty of measurement and over horses showing is a whole other heated debate in itself...we all know it isn't too tough to bring permanent any horse and fudge on the papers as long as it isn't showing who's to know

all goes back to dna, pictures, etc...truly only keeping the honest folks honest

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think some people may forget that a "correct" horse is a "typey" horse!!

I am amazed that someone will actually say "Judges are paid to place what THEY like best" It probably holds a lot of truth, but really a judge should only be judging by a standard of perfection and not just by what they like the best.

456792[/snapback]

​

There is NOTHING amazing about judges having personal preferences. You can stick to the standard of perfection and you can stick to what is correct and still pin the "TYPE" that you like. You are absolutely paying a judge for his PERSONAL OPINION. And if you do not what to hear someones opinion on your horse than again, don't show. Nothing has changed about that for all the years I have been showing and the generation before me and before that. As long as people have opinions nothing will change.

I think too many people get "TYPE" mixed up with correctness.

Edited to say.......this is a NEVERENDING STORY...........there are always going to be people that are in an uproar about something concerning showing their horses.

There will ALWAYS be winners and there will ALWAYS be losers.

456798[/snapback]

​

 

[shminifancier]

judging by a standard of perfection

Yes I agree BUT a miniature horse is because of no breed standard and only a height standard to go by.. You judge a mini by what a full sized one looks like then using a DeMagnifying glass that mini should look just like that big horse.. OK now what kind of a big horse? A Quarter horse? Many Quarters horses look different also, A real stocky ranch working quarter horse? Or a English type driving Quarter horse? OK maybe looking like an Arabian... What kind of an Arabian? Maybe a real refined type or a muscular power house of a Park Arabian?? Many different types of Arabs are also out there... So without a Breed Standard you will always have Different Judges seeing the SAME Animal different ways~! Just food for thought I guess. this is caused because no breed standard to go by just what that mini would look if a full sized one was made in miniature..

 

[Buckskin gal]

I sure agree tht a miniature horse can represent any large breed of horse and therefore a miniature horse judge would need to know the breed standards of many different breeds...and yet there is a standard of perfection for a miniature horse which is in the rule book on page 240.

judging by a standard of perfection

Yes I agree BUT a miniature horse is because of no breed standard and only a height standard to go by.. You judge a mini by what a full sized one looks like then using a DeMagnifying glass that mini should look just like that big horse.. OK now what kind of a big horse? A Quarter horse? Many Quarters horses look different also, A real stocky ranch working quarter horse? Or a English type driving Quarter horse? OK maybe looking like an Arabian... What kind of an Arabian? Maybe a real refined type or a muscular power house of a Park Arabian?? Many different types of Arabs are also out there... So without a Breed Standard you will always have Different Judges seeing the SAME Animal different ways~! Just food for thought I guess. this is caused because no breed standard to go by just what that mini would look if a full sized one was made in miniature..

456816[/snapback]

​

 

[shminifancier]

I sure agree that a miniature horse can represent any large breed of horse and therefore a miniature horse judge would need to know the breed standards of many different breeds...and yet there is a standard of perfection for a miniature horse which is in the rule book on page 240.

Yes true BUT Just how many Judges are card caring Breed cards?? I know my friend ans his X wife is but they are also very exspensive...You get a Judge for a one day show for 250 dollars I can just bet you they only have miniature cards and no other BREED cards....And that is what you have to find out when showing just which judges KNOW what to look for and how many care about getting knowledge of other breeds as well...

 

[horsefeather]

Interesting topic.I had a Mini mare who went to 40".I can't show her as a Shetland because they don't hardship.so now she is a grade pony.If you look at photos of Shetlands from 70 or more years ago they looked much like our Minis and were shorter than present Shetlands.they weren't real marketable since the kids outgrew them for riding quickly.Smart breeders used Hackney, Welsh, small Arabs and anything else to get a larger more saleable pony.  Quick  fix to a problem.Sales got better-ponies looked pretty.Look at some of the old original Shetlands from the British Isles.They didn't look like the modern beautiful Shetlands.  I love the Shetland ponies-I just don't think it is fair to have to show 2 different breeds against each other.I have heard breeders say that they will show the animal this year to get Hall of Fame as a Mini and next year show Shetland to get Hall of Fame as a Shetland.I think we should call them SHEMINIS. Start a new class.  I have had Minis since late 1980s and have seen lots of improvement in the breed, but I still feel that Minis are treated like second class citizens with the ASPC/AMHR Registry. If you go to convention and see the financial statements the money income is 10 to 1 from the Minis.Give us a break and call a spade a spade.  I have a real problem with a parent organization that can't give money to our youth to be Ambassador Queen, etc but can give $10000 to a Shetland Pony who might win some big national jumping title.Where are the priorities?

[SIZE=14pt]Wow!  You hit the nail on the head!!  I SO agree with you, expecially your last couple of sentences!!  I also agree with Sunny.  And, please, most us KNOW it is a HEIGHT[/SIZE]

456707[/snapback]

​

 

[kaykay]

bottom line is that if an aspc horse measures 38" or under and has AMHR papers IT IS A MINIATURE HORSE!!! And miniatures can show as a shetland if they have ASPC papers.

For example the colt i just bought was BORN apsc/amhr. So according to some people hes not a miniature horse?? I shouldnt be able to show him in the over division?? Thats just ridicules! For sure we will be showing in the AMHR over division in 2006.

We can all argue until we are blue in the face but you know what?? ASPC/AMHR horses are here to stay. And if you are going to show you will have to show against them.

The thing i really dont get though is almost everyone admits that they are better conformed and much more horse looking. So why would anyone ever think its a bad thing??

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I still dont see why the double reg thing is an issue and have yet to hear a reason from the "other side" (by the way i dont own any ASPC/R horses)

I mean what if these same horses opted to give up there ASPC papers and only carry R papers then would your issue still be they shouldnt show against miniatures casue they have the lines? and if that is the case then I will ask again when is enough lines on paper to much? anything with ROWDY in it ? take all of them out cause we know those are shetlands? anything with gold melody?

It comes down to the fact that a nice horse is a nice horse I have a couple people are sure are ASPC papered due to there look but they arent in fact there parents arent of that "type" either.