For discussion: AMHR: Ponies being

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well what i meant is exactly what you thought I meant.

I am not one to believe that minis just appeared here one day these tiny little horses that had no pony blood in them a magic breed all unto themselves- dropped from the heavens

They are all ponies are they all shetlands pure bred nope they arent but they all came from larger horses and pony breeds you said it yourself bottom line is neither is PUREBRED all the way back and papers mean you belong to a registry and one doesnt negate the other (that is the table/poodle thing) there is a breed here called blazer ponies.. someone locally in ID got upset with AQHA started his own registry of QH ponies they are to my understanding and i could be wrong on this but using it as an example not saying my facts are 100 percent on this blazer thing- but they are QH's with QH papers originally became blazers with this new registry so they can have years of pedigrees with the blazers (although i dont think it is that old) but bottom line is breeding them thru the years over and over doesnt change the fact they have QH blood thru and thru.

***NOTE AGAIN I AM USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE AND AM NOT 100 PERCENT UP ON MY BLAZER FACTS SO PLEASE DONT GET UPSET IF YOU HAVE THEM AND I AM INCORRECT IN THE YEARS IT HAS BEEN AROUND ECT. WAS JUST USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE TO HELP EXPLAIN WHAT I MEANT**** I was told by 3 people who breed them or own them they are all QH stock with a emphasis on being sound minded childrens horses

I guess I just see that some (and yes sometimes i do this as well) just want to constantly look for differences and point fingers and say this is why i dont win ,this is why i dont show ,those that do are ruining the breed, halter horses are going to be the death of the mini registry (ok these are very general statements and have been said in other recent posts on the same subject)

to me it is no different then the old AMHA is so much better then AMHR and that to is an old argument.

Seems we as a breed cant stop pitting against eachother (again a general statement not meant at anyone) and from the very get go for me 10-12 years ago that was the first thing i noticed as an outsider and to me more then anything else that is a downfall for this breed.

bottom line is we have the ability like others have said to breed what we like, whatever type, style and large horse counterparts we want to imitate those who say fads come and go then id that is a belief you have dont worry this to shall pass right? I have seen many types win- many sheltand/R horses get the gate- sometimes you just never know what will happen and what a judge will do and that is what makes it exciting, learning, and fun.

 

[minicount]

The core of my grip about ASPC is those who control the reins at the association more than the horses themselves.

The 34-38 division of AMHR was not some "insight" from ASPC it was a place to dump their shetlands that were too small. Guess they called their poodles "tables".

Low and behold the minis quickly went from a laughable registration to supporting the parent origination. Even though miniature horses out numbered the shetlands, ASPC was/is unwilling to turn over control to "miniature" only people. AMHR has thrived and flourished even though ASPC has been siphoning off loot for years.

What won at Nationals last year? Hmm. What do you think is going to win this year? Hmm. Now who is in charge of hiring the judges for Nationals? Hmm. I like a good fight but it would be nice if the "officials" would keep it clean.

Creating a "better" horse is easier to do with a horse that stands 38+ so yes many shetlands have better proportions, but for me who does not breed for the "B" division adding the over blood is taking a step forward and two back.

I have never been one for closing the registry but it does irk me that we keep getting the "shetlands are the ones with the pedigree" thrown in our faces. My question is if "all" minis are shetlands why do we need shetland blood to "fix" our croups/hips/necks and so on?

Before everyone gets on me about my "B" comment. I have "B"'s I show "B's", I breed one or two "B" mares. I have never had or ever plan on having a "B" stallion or specifically breeding for them.

 

[Minimor]

Well said Lisa!

I thought the AMHR 'over' division was created for those Minis that went over the 34" limit....

I have no problem at all with registered Shetlands getting their AMHR or AMHA papers and showing as Miniatures. I have no registered Shetlands, so I say that without bias. I was told about this conflict when we got our first Miniatures, and even then I couldn't see what all the griping was about. Yes, I can see that when there was simply the 38" and under limit, it wasn't fair for a 38" yearling Shetland to show as a Mini. But, now that there's a size limit for each age, I see nothing unfair about it.

Why is everyone okay with a grade pony being hardshipped, but it's a bad thing to have a Shetland that is also registered as a Miniature?

After Nationals year before last, I heard a lot of complaining from an exhibitor about how the Shetlands were winning everything. My view of this complaining? Sour grapes.

I've written this out 3 times & it never comes out right; I'm tired, so I'm going to give up, end here, & go to bed!

 

[Belinda]

The core of my grip about ASPC is those who control the reins at the association more than the horses themselves.
The 34-38 division of AMHR was not some "insight" from ASPC it was a place to dump their shetlands that were too small.  Guess they called their poodles "tables".

  Low and behold the minis quickly went from a laughable registration to supporting the parent origination.  Even though miniature horses out numbered the shetlands, ASPC was/is unwilling to turn over control to "miniature" only people.  AMHR has thrived and flourished even though ASPC has been siphoning off loot for years.

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Please refer back to my post earlier on the formation of the B division

Again it was not Added to accommodate the Small ASPC horses.. It was put here to take care of the OVERSIZE MINI'S..

I Would like to know how ASPC can as you say siphon off loot

Of something that they own and always have owned.. The ASPC/AMHR has and still does try to give back to their members.. They have a very nice Amateur Program now that does alot , Thanks to Karen Shaw and some others that spend lots of their own time to see that the program grows..

AMHR did not form ASPC !! ASPC OWNS AMHR , for those that did not want to be owned by the Shetland Pony Club , They formed "AMHA"" OH but then those people are not happy about how their Organization is ran most of the time either..

The American Shetland Pony Club has been in around for over 100 years , so believe it not they have got to be doing something RIGHT..

 

[Buckskin gal]

Uhmmm,

well I guess I understood you better than what I was giving myself credit for!

when I studied the history of the horse, it wasn't small coming from big, it was smallest to start with and then big! Oh well that is just history. As for anyone pointing fingers and pitting, I don't see it and maybe that is because I look for the good in something and not the bad. We all have the right to speak the best we can and asking questions and getting answers is one way of learning. If you point fingers such as pointing to someone because you don' like what they have said, just remember there are those three fingers pointing back at you! We aren't to control what others say, we can only control how we react to it and what we say. I don't see anything wrong in disagreeing with someone else nor do I expect everyone else to agree with me. And I will have to disagree that it will be what you call the constantly looking for differences, the pointing of fingers,the saying of this is why I don't win or this is why I don't show will be the ruin of the breed and that the halter horses are going to be the death of the mini registery. That is giving a lot of power to those few who might express themselves in a manner you don't like. Did you ever stop to think, Lisa, that just maybe what you are saying about these people is more deterimental than what they may have or may not have said? Why be so harsh with those few who have different thoughts and opinions then yourself? Who is against who here? It is the miniature horses that have brought this group together and no one is trying to put to death the halter horses nor the registry. I give this group, for the most part, a lot of credit for being open and honest in stating what they think and feel. I can't speak for everyone here, but I do sense a frustration from some with what may happen to the miniature horse and I also think there is some frustration with the way some judges place horses. They have a right to their feelings. Even the best have judges they won't show under a second time. Judges aren't perfect and we don't need to pretend they are. Thanks for taking the time to explain and I do hope you eventually feel better about those who you think are ruining things. I will try to see things from your prespective and maybe you can try and see from theirs also.

Mary

well what i meant is exactly what you thought I meant. I am not one to believe that minis just appeared here one day these tiny little horses that had no pony blood in them a magic breed all unto themselves- dropped from the heavens

They are all ponies are they all shetlands pure bred nope they arent but they all came from larger horses and pony breeds you said it yourself bottom line is neither is PUREBRED all the way back and papers mean you belong to a registry and one doesnt negate the other (that is the table/poodle thing) there is a breed here called blazer ponies.. someone locally in ID got upset with AQHA started his own registry of QH ponies they are to my understanding and i could be wrong on this but using it as an example not saying my facts are 100 percent on this blazer thing- but they are QH's with QH papers originally became blazers with this new registry so they can have years of pedigrees with the blazers (although i dont think it is that old) but bottom line is breeding them thru the years over and over doesnt change the fact they have QH blood thru and thru.

***NOTE AGAIN I AM USING THIS AS AN EXAMPLE AND AM NOT 100 PERCENT UP ON MY BLAZER FACTS SO PLEASE DONT GET UPSET IF YOU HAVE THEM AND I AM INCORRECT IN THE YEARS IT HAS BEEN AROUND ECT. WAS JUST USING IT AS AN EXAMPLE TO HELP EXPLAIN WHAT I MEANT****

I guess I just see that some (and yes sometimes i do this as well) just want to constantly look for differences and point fingers and say this is why i dont win ,this is why i dont show ,those that do are ruining the breed, halter horses are going to be the death of the mini registry (ok these are very general statements and have been said in other recent posts  on the same subject)

to me it is no different then the old AMHA is so much better then AMHR and that to is an old argument.

Seems we as a breed cant stop pitting against eachother (again a general statement not meant at anyone)  and from the very get go for me 10-12 years ago that was the first thing i noticed as an outsider and to me more then anything else that is a downfall for this breed.

bottom line is we have the ability like others have said to breed what we like, whatever type, style and large horse counterparts we want to imitate those who say fads come and go then id that is a belief you have dont worry this to shall pass right? I have seen many types win- many sheltand/R horses get the gate- sometimes you just never know what will happen and what a judge will do and that is what makes it exciting, learning, and fun.

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[Michelle@wescofarms]

It really sounds like sour grapes to say 'I don't want to show against a Shetland as they always win'. But I've seen that at shows - the ASPC/AMHR shetland/minis do place consistently over the minis in the B division.

I don't show B nor do I own Shetlands, and although it is legal as long as the shetlands have AMHR papers (or AMHA), I'm not in favor of the flip flop this weekend I'm a shetland, next show I'm a mini - but that is a personal feeling, and it isn't breaking any existing rules. So, if I was to show B, and I didn't want to show against the Shetlands, I wouldn't period! That might limit my show choices and possibly ruin my B's show careers, but if the judges really like Shetland's and that look - well that would be my problem. I could follow that trend or breed for what I like and feel is a correct Miniature Horse.

Saying that, I breed American Miniature Horses. I'm very grateful and proud of my Minis that have Shetland breeding/bloodlines, and have always stood behind that, but I don't chose to breed Shetlands - I chose to breed Minis. I would like to see the American Miniature Horse be a true breed not a height registry which will require at some point in the future closing the registries. Maybe not yet, but it will be necessary at some point. That is my personal choice.

If people do not like the way shows are run and or the registries - get involved and make your voice heard to change it.

 

[stormy]

And I will still ask why migrate all the small shetlands into AMHR because they can not compete against the taller shetlands instead of adding a smaller height division to shetland and allow each breed to go its own unique course. Shetlands are not better conformed or more beautiful than minis any more than arabs are better conformed or more beautiful than morgans or thoroughbreds, they are just differant breeds!

 

[Sue_C.]

And I will still ask why migrate all the small shetlands into AMHR because they can not compete against the taller shetlands instead of adding a smaller height division to shetland and allow each breed to go its own unique course. Shetlands are not better conformed or more beautiful than minis any more than arabs are better conformed or more beautiful than morgans or thoroughbreds, they are just differant breeds!

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Very interesting topic. I dont show my minis but I will put my 2 cents in for what its worth anyways.... I did show gaited saddlebreds and arabians for years, then the 1/2 arab-1/2 saddlebred became a overnight breed-- The national showhorse, I seen the good and bad of that happen at shows across the midwest. Now you have the minis--I dont have a problem crossing a GOOD shetland with a good mini IF its going to improve on the resulting foal. I have seen some minis and if I didnt know anything about minis I sure would think these were all just grade shetlands, now I am having people come over to me to buy and ask me if these horses being sold are truly minis or shetlands. These people are all new to minis and even they can see the differance. These minis have height, extreamly heavy necks, no good top lines, and all in all look like the old grade ponies everyone use to have with the exception that they are smaller in height , but all of them are AMHR registered. A good horse is a good horse regardless of its ancestors. Even tho the minis are descended from shetlands, the "height" breed has come along way from the old standard shetland. I would like to see the American Miniature Horse become a breed....they have done this to several other cross breed horses so why not the miniature??? All breeds have there good points, and the shetland has incorporated many of there fine traits in developing the miniature. I think its time to speak up to the registries and have the miniature horses become a breed not just a height regisrty! Corinne

 

[Getitia]

And I will still ask why migrate all the small shetlands into AMHR because they can not compete against the taller shetlands instead of adding a smaller height division to shetland and allow each breed to go its own unique course

That is a great question, and actually shetlands have an under and over division as well as a foundation division. Just like AMHR has an over and under division.

Perhaps AMHR should consider a foundation "miniature" division as well.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I am one that shows the shetland/minis. I dont flip flop I show the amhr reg ones only amhr..... I will bite the bullet and pay the 1200 and go to some amha shows when Sweet Tart is 5 just to prove that shetlands are minis because a 32 inch horse IS A MINIATURE HORSE BY DEFINITION. Funny how in all these threads the shetland people and the shetland/mini people dont care when we are beat by a nice mini only horse. we congradulate the owners and move on but let our shetland mini beat their horses and we are blasted for being in the ring against them! [/SIZE]

No matter what anyone says the minis are height only requirements, they dont have a breed standard and any horse pet or show ugly or not can be registered as long as it measures in to amha ...except for obvious dwarves and then on to amhr from there. The ones that are over 34 and not reg are the only ones really penalized. I have two mares that had amha reg parents that out grew their amha papers and thank god that AMHR gave them a place to go. My short shetlands can always go to the shetland shows and the foundation classes are usually shorter classics anyway. Ive got news for all of you except maybe Rabbitfizz because she has seen the uk shetlands for real.....NONE of the American shetlands OR minis look anything like them over there! Read Scott Uzzels book Our Shetland Heritage and you will learn TONS about both the shetland breed AND the miniatures.

GET OFF YOUR MINI ONLY HIGH HORSES and accept our horses for what they are.

Miniatures just like yours only with another set of papers!!!

Flame away off my soap box now.

BTW Our short shetlands win in the shetland ring too even against the taller ponies because a good horse is a good horse.

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

you know buckskin gal one has to wonder why it is you are choosing to make this personal- i never said anything about anyone having different opinions being horrible and that they had no right to state them all i can say is perhaps you havent been here nor read the conversations I am talking about and simply brought up not started but really you are the one that seems to take disagreeing opinions (mine) and want to make it a personal issue one that I refuse to take on any more.

bottom line to everyone is yes there is always frustration on where the breed is going and who places and how and where they place again that is part of showing and breeding and really all you can do I will say again and like others have said is do your part with what you believe in and breed what you feel is best for the breed.

 

[Frankie]

I will bite the bullet and pay the 1200 and go to some amha shows when Sweet Tart is 5 just to prove that shetlands are minis because a 32 inch horse IS A MINIATURE HORSE BY DEFINITION.

Lyn, I have been to many many AMHA shows, and THAT is already being done, by many a breeder. I know because I ask about breeding. It has been done for many a years too.

but let our shetland mini beat their horses and we are blasted for being in the ring against them!

JMO but I do not see that here. Nor was I doing that. Just to be clear.

What I read and see in this thread with some who disagree, is,

If a smaller Shetland, papered, makes a choice not to show at a Pony Show, they can go AMHR,,,,,,,,,,,,,,if an AMHR Miniature makes a choice not to show against the Shetlands,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,they stay home. They have no options to go else where like many other horses of a certain breed can do.

I am not asking you to agree or disagree with where a Shetland should show, but can you step back for just a second and just agree to see the point that is being made? An AMHR horse can not go elsewhere to show.

For the emails I have recieved. I have heard both sides for a long time, I put up the thread to see what others truly thought and to listen to and hear both sides. I am not one direction or another. And no, not being jealous here as some have suggested, my mare beats papered shetlands on a regular basis. Which is why I MAY not see the side of those who are not. Nor do I see the side of the Shetland owner, as I do not own one. I learn by asking and that is what I was doing. As for how I know if a horse is a pony, again, I ask.

We all make typo's, me included, but Lyn, PLEASE take your "D" out of congratulations.

 

[Sue_C.]

Ive got news for all of you except maybe Rabbitfizz because she has seen the uk shetlands for real.....NONE of the American shetlands OR minis look anything like them over there!

I am pretty sure there are more than two people here who have seen the "real" Shetland. There are breeders right here in lil 'ol Nova Scotia.

and you certainly don't want me to write here what THEY think of the American Shetland.

If those original Shetlands are what the Miniature horse breed has developed from, then the breeders have done a fine enough job. And it has been done without having to "hackneyize" the Miniature Horse to "improve" it.

I know the ability to "cross-over" is there...I just don't understand the NEED. If I WANTED registered Shetlands, that's what I would have bought to begin with. If Shetland owners/breeders want Miniatures, they too can buy them...why try to make one into the other? The real injustice is that although there is an "over-under" for Shetlands, they are still able to slide into the AMHR, yet,our AMHR horses that go over, are simply grade-ponies. So ya want your cake and eat it too?

This has nothing to do with showing in my opinion, it is a fairness issue.

And I do NOT agree that the new Shetland will "improve" our breed at all, so you can quit doing me any 'favours". I don't find a large part of the Shetland itself improved...look beyond the neck...

 

[kaykay]

frankie when you started this thread here is what you said

I don't think there is any dissagreement, a pony/shetland is different than an actual miniature horse. That being said, why are they being shown in the same classes? It is because classes are according to height, if a taller miniature is at the top of a height class, it will compete against a shetland at the bottom of it's height, as in a smaller size shetland. Just how in the world can a judge be expected to judge a class where there are both miniatures and shetlands?

Why can't they be seperated out????? As I heard many MANY say this weekend, if I wanted a Pony, I'd buy a pony. My choice is to raise miniatures, so why if my choice is to show it has to be done against a Pony.

This is very different from what you are saying now

Now your saying they shouldnt show because an amhr can only show in one division.

If i own an ASPC/AMHR horse then why on earth shouldnt i be allowed to show it AMHR. It IS by definiton a miniature horse. No doubt about it. Also where do you divide it?? What about horses like mine that are born both apsc and amhr. He wasnt hardshipped in he was born into amhr. So he shouldnt be allowed to show??

Bottom line is this: if we exclude an AMHR papered horse from showing just because its winning then how are we bettering the breed?? It just makes no sense.

 

[lyn_j]

Frankie, The computer types what I SAY to it....Thats the way I say the word, sorry if the way IT spells what I speak to it is offensive to you.


Lyn


also sometimes I forget to say close all tags

 

[Getitia]

Over all, in general, most of the time, a miniature can not beat a pony in a class. They are more refine, they do have more necks and most have much better movement

Frankie, I went back to your original post - and the above statement is why we decided to make changes in our personal breeding program many years ago - I wanted more neck length to balance the horse, I wanted the necks to tie in better, I wanted better movement and more slope to the shoulder and more refinement. And I looked and looked for "any" breed of small equine that could help me add these traits into our breeding program. And we also wanted to breed horses with wonderful dispositions - as we have many young grandchildren and safety is always on my mind.

Remember the B gelding we were showing Sunday - Lightening - well his dam is an AMHR/AMHA Miniature and his sire is an AMHR miniature who also happens to have ASPC papers and PtHA papers. This breeding was made with no regard to his AMHA and ASPC papers - I wanted to produce a usable, attractive competitive AMHR show horse. He is all of that and more...........................(thank you Connie for training him to drive for us

)

There are many other breeders out there doing the same thing, trying to improve the "horselike" appearance of the small equine. Some are using ponies - some are not -

We have amha/amhr, amhr, aspc, and aspc/amhr and amha/amhr/aspc horses in our breeding program, I cannot tell just by looking if a horse is half shetland, pure shetland, 3/4 shetland on paper - or listed as "hardship" background unknown. Everyone thinks Lightening is a shetland - is he? He is 1/2 shetland - but also 1/2 old bloodlines AMHA mini - I have some shetlands that look like the "old style minis".

The only thing that I know for sure is that the AMHR competition is increasing in leaps and bounds each year. The stock being exhibited at all ages, is becoming more and more horselike in conformation each and every year. Some of the horses that won 5 years ago at the Nationals would have a tough time competing today. ( I can say this as I own a few)

Those who are attending the AMHR Nationals who have never been before are in for a treat . As you will see many classes with 40+ entries in which 10 of them could be champion of champion at any open show...........

 

[Cathy_H]

am curious, to those who breed and show shetlands. If they are registered both, why do you show AMHR shows

Because we can............................... We started showing AMHA in 86. When the R shows/horses started getting better we went that route. Now we are showing R / shetlands. Since we preferred the taller horses & seeing that the opportunities were increasing to show them more we seized the opportunity to do so. Both because of preference & they are easier for Lee to work with because of his back.......................................... My opinion, I feel the miniature horse business (blanket statement) was becoming stagnant.

I'm glad the opportunity was there for Lee & I to buy quality R/shetlands so we could continue to show, enjoy & breed them if we wish... We've always been a small farm but if we owned dozens of miniature horses we could not have made the move to R/shetlands...... You can stay where you are in your breeding & showing program because you prefer it or because you cannot afford to change but change IS going to happen. Where the miniature / shetland business will be in ten years is going to be up to a lot of you reading these posts...... BTW, we still own A/R mini's & probably always will.

 

[Ginia]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Frankie and Margo, but this is a trend and we are going to have to either (a. Accept it and adapt, (b. stick with what we have and love and try to better our stock to be competitive, (c. stay home and enjoy our "miniature only" horses as pleasure driving animals, pets and good-will ambassadors to childrens wards, nursing homes, etc., or (d. get out!!!!! Know that this is not going to go away, it is only going to accelerate. I saw it happen in the Arabian industry, which I was a part of, in the l980's when the National Show Horse was concieved. I had for a number of years enjoyed small stock-type Half-Arabs as western pleasure horses and in costume classes. Enter the Arabian/American Saddlebred cross --- PRESTO----National Show Horse. It went wild, and pretty much shot the little stocky Half-Arabs right out of the water. Did I like it? Did any of the other exhibitors with the more traditional little Half-Arabs like it? NOOOOOOO. Did it happen anyway? YESSSSSS. Did it continue on into the next decade, and the one after that, of course it did. I choose to follow the (b. route above. I'm trying to acquire and breed into the miniatures I own the refinement and type that the Shetland is infusing into them, and yes, I'm realistic enough to know that that very refinement and type STILL probably came from Shetlands in their background.

 

[Mini_Bre]

As for AMHA having "tighter height restrictions"-surely, you jest? Have you been to an AMHA show, at any level, lately, and observed the measuring??)

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Hmmmmm anyone see measuring at AMHR Nationals last year? The people in front of us were pushing on a horse’s back while they were measuring just trying to get them in the B division...and they did. At least AMHA video tapes... you may not touch the horse after you have set it up..ect....but this is a whole other subject...

As for ASPC registered horses showing in AMHR its happening and its not going to stop any time soon I am personally not for it but hey what you going to do. I think in a way we are taking a step backwards...wasn't the whole point of AMHR to create the smallest and best conformed horse possible? Atleast it states some what in the rulebook that is they are equal in type then the smaller horse should win? I don't care if miniatures are a height breed but there is definitely a difference between a miniature and a Shetland. they have different characteristics, different strong points and different bad points.

Count me in on the whole "Cinderella" theory as well....felt that from the very beginning but thats just me.