Gelding those colts.

[JMS Miniatures]

Many think if your horse doesn't win (at what level? Regional or worlds?) Then he is not breeding quality. What do those horses look like without necksweating, belly wraps ect...? I have seen some of the tricks that are used to make these horses win. What would they look like if they were allowed to run in a field on there own? The sun would fade those beautiful coats. Those white tails would get yellow. Those top horses don't look that way naturally. They won't produce foals that look like that unless they live the same life as that stallion.

You same to them "what a beautiful coat!" They may reply "It never sees the light of day." If you see what looks good just out in someones pasture, you are seeing what they really look like and what they really produce.

Without the breed shows how do we as breeders know what we should strive to breed for? You always try to look your best for an event you go to well so do the horses. I only have geldings, my 3 boys are not out of well known stock, well except one after I bought him his sire went on to show and got several wins in Pinto Championships. So its not always the rule go out and buy from show winning stock, cause you can never guarantee yourself a winning foal. But if you are showing a stallion that just can't win in halter or driving no matter how many times you show him then something is wrong. I think thats what everyone is trying to say.

I just want to say I do not stall my show horses. They are out 24/7. They are not currently neck sweated, I probably should and will for Nationals, they are not weighted. They are just regular horses that do get trained and worked but they just get pulled out of the pasture and shown. Now what can I change if I had a barn I would probably stall them, but not 24/7.

Other than the futurity and Super Gelding program, does AMHA or AMHR offer any other incentives?

Lower registry fees for geldings.

 

[shelia]

You are right. Without the shows we would not be able to show how nice our breeding stock is. i just wish some people did not go to such extremes to make their horse win. If you are coming in last all of the time then of course something is wrong. That person would need to find someone who could tell them the truth about their horse. Is it the horse or the handler? We all know that most of the time the taller and younger horses have the best chance. People who want to win at all costs will follow what is winning. If your horse is 1/4 inch from the height limit and it is the shortest horse in the class you have to wonder just how far do you want to go. I see horses going in the ring that seem to be in so much pain from having the hooves trimmed too short. Why don't the judges see that? Everybody says temperment is a big issue, but I have seen horses trying to kill their handler, and still win. I have noticed lately that many of the stallions seem terrified. Of course if your horse is too calm, he surely won't win.

 

[CharlesFamily]

I still stand by my statement - that if your horse is not winning in a sanctioned show ring - and I did not specify halter - they should not be breeding. I include CDE events in here, too. I think those are an awesome testament to the mind and soundness of a horse. I am of the opinion that we also need to be breeding for horses that do more than look pretty in a halter ring and all they know how to do is walk and trot on the end of a lead and stand still. I love versatile performance horses that can do well in a halter ring, but then go out and compete in performance classes, too. Coming from a Quarter Horse background, I love seeing the performance halter classes - where the horses have to have earned an (I believe) ROM in a performance class to compete. Not only do those horses look good, but they can do something!

As to judges placing who is on the end of the lead rather than the horse, I am sure that happens, but if you are consistently getting shut out of the ribbons every show you go to, then you have to look past "politics" and look at your horse. However, if you have a truly spectacular horse, and in my opinion, in order to be a breeding stallion you need to be truly spectacular, then in spite of the politics you are going to see some success in the show ring.

I love the idea of the "Great Jewel Heist!" Fantastic name!

Barbara

 

[Tremor]

^^^^ Ditto what she said.

 

[Minimor]

I have to say--a show record doesn't always mean much in terms of quality. There are horses with National titles that I wouldn't want to own--you couldn't give them to me--and if for some reason I did own them I would not be breeding them--one mare that went National Champion (halter) the one year WADDLED when she walked--terrible movement on that mare, and I have no idea how she ever won the class. I guess movement counts for nothing in the AMHR halter ring so perhaps the waddle didn't matter? But still...I would never breed anything that moves that badly, no matter how many National titles it might have.

In terms of geldings--we like our geldings here--we have gelded quite a number of Mini boys, 18 or 19 I guess. I was happy when the AMHR/ASPC stallion to gelding fee was dropped last year--I have always said that fee should be dropped. $10 wasn't much, but still it adds up when you're gelding a number of horses & want to update all their paperwork.

I am of the opinion that if one figures it is too expensive to geld, so you can't afford to geld your colts, then one shouldn't be breeding. We're lucky that here we pay only about $70 to geld a Mini--and still that does add up after 18 or 19! I can say for sure, though, that if it cost us $300 per gelding we would not have raised as many foals as we did, simply because we could not afford to pay $300 for every colt we gelded! I don't believe in selling on a gelding contract, and I sure wouldn't be keeping a pile of stallions simply because I couldn't afford the cost of gelding...

 

[horsehug]

I thank you for your post, Diane (Castle Rock Miniatures)

I think a huge number of miniature horse owners and/or breeders across this country will identify with all or parts of what you have said.

Susan O.

 

[Marty]

Ok how about everyone cool down for a minute. I'm going to throw something else out here:

First off, gelding fan here. I have no problems with gelding a horse but that is my choice. Not anyone else's decision to make for me. Second the decision not to breed anymore is also by my choice.

Now about the showing: How about people like me that don't give a care about showing? I've been in the ring most of my life and I'm so done with it.

I don't particularly care to engage anymore. I'm not getting up at 4:00 AM and drive all over creation anymore for any show. I'm not going to go through that stress of preparation, clipping and bathing my brains out to sweat like a pig in the ring and watch my horse do the same thing and I'm not doing that chicken dance. Its all way too much money for a fat old lady and frankly I have other things to spend money on instead of a show ring hobby. It would cost me a mortgage payment to show now a days at one show. That does not mean I can't sit on my modest little farm and breed if I want to and geld who I want to. I sold a horse who placed in the top 6th as Nationals two years ago. I have two others out there from my breeding showing 4H and going to 4H regionals and the rest are doing nothing but eating and enjoying life. As long as that horse gets the care it does here, or better, that's fine with me if they stay home in the yard or show. If someone thinks my horses are not worthy because I didn't show them then don't look at them.

You guys that want to get out there and show your stuff have my utmost respect as I know so well how hard it is and what you are going through to do it. I'll watch ya. I'll cheer for ya and I'll blow you kisses but I just don't wanna play anymore. Someday there will come a time when you call it quits too so don't be so hard on us stay at homers.

Who's ready for a round of Kumbaya?

 

[Lizzie]

Oh gosh Diane, I can certainly agree with your post - and identify. My daughter (who actually owns all our horses) has had to sell horses she thought would never leave her farm. She was one of those in Ca. who lost her job as a teacher, when California went broke and laid off hundreds of teachers. I think relatively few have come through this economy, unscathed. Those whom it has not affected, maybe just don't know how lucky they are. We have not shown for some time, but do train our horses to do something. My daughter seldom breeds and has one Mini mare in foal at the moment. She was purchased in foal. We cringe when thinking of the money spent on horses in the past and now are not even bred. Truth is, with the cost of everything in California, having to purchase all feed (no pasture) it is not easy to breed and afford to raise a foal these days. This especially with full size horses.

On our Gypsy Horse forum, several of us added up just how much it cost to raise a foal to saleable age. It was pretty eye-opening. Certainly one could seldom hardly cover cost, let alone make a tiny profit. Add to that, possible gelding cost of about $350 in our area and maybe having to keep a foal for a year or more before sale. Well you get the picture. Few horse breeders are wealthy and horse breeding will seldom make one wealthy. I think most of us do it because of our love of horses and as a hobby only. Sadly, many have had to give up that hobby completely in recent years. For those who can afford to show and travel, then it is an added bonus. Certainly there are thousands of superb horses out there, who have never seen a show ring, yet are producing top quality offspring. Many others who have shown well, who are not producing reliably. Of course it's lovely to have a list of credits, but it doesn't make the horse. The proof really, is in what he/she can produce.

Lizzie

 

[bannerminis]

I have to say that here in Ireland the willy nilly (excuse the pun)breeding of miniatures here is out of control. There is a website called Done Deal and all I see advertised are seriously bad colts/stallions advertised for sale, stud or as teasers (which I really hate).

The MHCI is trying to promote gelding here more but you have the Farmer Joes that havent a clue about what we are trying to achieve and they have the land so they let mares and stallions run and then sell them for 100 euro.

It is ruining the miniature horse here and we find it hard to get taken seriously when they see some of the poorly bred horses.

My vet charges about 100 euro to geld and next yr I will be looking at Buck to possibly geld and I think I will let Sunny cover my two mares and then come Autumn of next yr he probably be gelded. He is a quiet boy and is been broken to drive so think he will make a super gelding. The reason I want to use him next yr is that I think he will cross really nice with both mares and Slaney is a big moving mare so a combo of the two and I think I could have a fantastic halter/driving horse.

I thought the serious downturn in our economy would also put an end to a lot of it but sadly not everyday there are new horses advertised that are only pets and I have seen them advertised as show quality.

The Irish Judges here are big on legs and sometimes will pick a heavier type of horse over a more refined because it is more correct.

We only have a handful of judges that are used to judging the miniature but there are a few judges interested in learning so thats good.

The standard in Ireland has come on Leaps and Bounds over the last few yrs but there are still too many that just breed for numbers rather then conformation and type.

 

[kaykay]

Other than the futurity and Super Gelding program, does AMHA or AMHR offer any other incentives?

I cannot tell you all the hours it took to get the Super Gelding program approved by the ASPC/AMHR board and running. This is the 2nd year and I am fearful we are going to lose this program. If we cant get more people to nominate their geldings it will be gone.

Everyone wants these programs but they generally do not understand what it takes to get these off the ground and keep them running.

Unfortunately this year we have even less geldings than last year.

Its really easy to say you want more incentives but if people do not use the incentives we have they disappear.

There are also gelding incentive classes that people can show in but I think alot dont understand they can just show and win money. I know when we were showing Jet he won back quadruple his purchase price the very first year.

Regarding showing:

I see all sides of this issue. I also believe strongly in showing what you breed, but like many others we have been hit hard by the economy and have only done 1 show in the last two years. I love the sweat and work of getting a horse ready to show, but you have to have the money to do it. Life has changed drastically for a lot of us since 2009. I am lucky that I have sold to people that are out showing and bringing home ribbons with horses we have bred so I am eternally greatful to those people!

I have seen horses that shouldnt have won - win, but not nearly as much as some post. I am not a big farm or a big name trainer and we manage to bring home ribbons. There will always be a bit of politics in anything you do.

I do agree with not liking the extreme lengths some will go to for a ribbon. I can always tell when a horse is neck sweated because they get a very unnatural look to their neck. You can even see it in their pictures. I have seen horses with 2nd degree burns on their neck from sweating. I have seen weanlings with a neck sweat. Ughh. Sad stuff. We have only put a neck sweat on one horse over all these years and I couldnt stand it and took it off. stop the extreme sweating and breed a better neck.

Even if you dont show, you should go watch. Because you might be very surprised at what you see at a show both good and bad.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Kay perhaps AMHR can advertise the program more. Til this post I didn't know you could still nominate your geldings. But I just don't see AMHR really trying to spread the word about it especiall on their site. I will try and nominate my boy.

Again I don't think anyone at first was trying to say oh you can't breed if you don't show. All it was was about if YOU do SHOW and your stallion isn't placing and keeps on loosing then something is up and you need to look at all whats facing you. I think people on here has taking this topic and totally twisted it. If you don't show thats fine, many more members don't show because they have no interst or can't afford it. Thats fine. I totally understand, it isn't cheap to show. However IMO I still think people need to keep up with the horses that are winning to still get an idea at where the breed is going.

 

[CharlesFamily]

Diane,

I truly did not mean to upset anyone so much with my opinion - which is just what it is - my opinion! I also need to clarify my statement about winning - I think placing in a competitive class at a sanctioned show as winning. Top 10 in some of those huge classes at Nationals and Worlds to me, is absolutely winning! My gelding came to me right after his trip to Nationals with a couple of top 10 places. You bet I consider him a winner!

Coming home from a local AMHR show with 3rd place in a nicely competitive class is winning! (As an example - don't yell at me if your horse placed 4th. Now - if you are consistently placing 3rd out of 3 - we might have to talk

). I completely did not mean that the only horses to be bred should be the national halter champion - absolutely not! As I stated, I am not a halter fan. I am not a fan at all of the type of horses that for the most part are winning in the halter classes of ANY breed right now. Things are taken too much to the extreme and it is crazy.

I absolutely do not have the money it takes to show at the highest level. My husband and I are both teachers and Nationals falls at a really bad time for us. They kind of frown on us taking time off at the beginning of the year. Even if I saved the money, we couldn't make that trip. That's one of the reasons I own geldings! What I am saying is that you should be able to stand behind your breeding program! Diane, I have no doubt that you have nice horses and the economy has been hard one everyone - even people who used to show have had to cut back. You are the choir that I am preaching to - I'm afraid that probably the ones who need to hear it are not the ones being offended. You were in the show ring so at least you have an idea of what needs to happen. There are people, and I see this on Craigslist every day, who look at their crooked-legged, short-necked, long as a train stallion and decide he needs to be bred even though they have never even BEEN to a show to see what is considered a good example of a breeding stallion.

Again, I did not ever mean to upset anyone so much. I was just stating my opinion in the hopes that someone reading might stop and reconsider that breeding might not be there thing. I just hope that miniature horse owners as a group move on from the mentality of "What are they good for?" "Breeding!" Truly, that is the only way that this industry is going to move forward and pull anyone out of the slump that it is in. I am not going to apologize for my opinion because it has been formed by years of reading this forum, seeing new people join with the, "I bought a stallion and a mare, put them together and now I think she's pregnant, what should I do?" posts. And I know, we all had to start somewhere - I know I did. But sadly, with miniatures, even people who have never owned horses before seem to want to start with breeding. These are the people I want to reach.

I hope this thread doesn't get locked. I think the only way we grow and learn is through healthy debate. We can all have different opinions and still get along! It's not like I or anyone else are singling out farms and going, "Wow, you absolutely should not breed that horse." People should not get offended by someone else's differing opinion unless it is strictly directed at them.

Barbara

 

[targetsmom]

OK, I admit I know nothing about the Super Gelding programs or the other gelding incentives. Can you win money at local shows or do you have to go to Worlds/Nationals?

Pinto just started a program called Pinto pays (for all pintos, not just geldings) that pays based on the points won at ANY approved Pinto show. That is a huge plus for people like me who don't want to travel half way across the country to attend Worlds or Nationals. There are structured nomination fees depending on when you nominate.

 

[mydaddysjag]

Kay, with the super gelding program, can you still nominate your horse if it was shown by a trainer, or do you have to be the one showing them? I was going to nominate, but I wasn't sure about that (and my horse was with a trainer this season I guess I should have asked, just had a lot of other things on my mind. I do hope the program makes it for next year, I'll have two geldings to show then. Right now our other horse is still a stallion, and wont be gelded until after show season.

 

[Minimor]

I think the super gelding program is a great idea, but I can also see where many people won't bother to enter it. I know it's not something I will enter, even though I do show geldings. The reason I won't bother to enter it is I don't show enough to ever have a hope of winning anything in it. It's fine for someone to say that I should enter it anyway, to support the gelding program, but the fact is I simply don't have the money to support every program going--I cannot afford to pay entry money into something that I really cannot compete in. If some others can do that and choose to enter even if they show only once or twice a year, great, more power to them. For me, that's just not an option--and so I won't be nominating any geldings. I suspect that there are many others the same way--they aren't going to nominate their geldings unless they're planning to show under 8 or 10 judges during the show season.

 

[kaykay]

Kay, with the super gelding program, can you still nominate your horse if it was shown by a trainer,

Yes! you do NOT have to be the one showing the gelding to enter.

OK, I admit I know nothing about the Super Gelding programs or the other gelding incentives. Can you win money at local shows or do you have to go to Worlds/Nationals?

The incentive classes are offered at your (or any) area national show and congress/nationals. Anytime you see incentive--enter! that means its a money class. Ammy incentive, gelding incentive. Same goes for Jackpot classes. enter enter enter! (course for ammy you have to meet ammy guidelines)

When I first started showing I never entered those classes because I had no clue what they were. Finally Doc Taylor took me aside and explained it all to me. The best advice he ever gave me was to enter every time you see it. For some incentive classes you can only win once, but they take your highest placing (say you showed at 2 area national shows)

Kay perhaps AMHR can advertise the program more

I totally agree! But there is only so much I can beg for LOL. I keep trying! When the new registry site goes up it will have a lot of information for the super gelding program. I am hoping that site is up soon.

Normally we would close the entry period this late into show season. But since we have such few entries we have kept it open.

Minimor, since we have such few geldings entered you would probably win. See this is the problem with your theory. If everyone thinks "I cant win so I wont bother" Then we end up where we are now with very few geldings. Ultimately it puts the program out.

I will say though we are going to have a committee meeting and discuss changing how the points are done. I am open to all! Its been really hard to get the committee together during show season so I am hoping after Nationals we can meet and iron some stuff out.

If you have suggestions please call me or email me with them [email protected]

 

[midnight star stables]

I cannot tell you all the hours it took to get the Super Gelding program approved by the ASPC/AMHR board and running. This is the 2nd year and I am fearful we are going to lose this program. If we cant get more people to nominate their geldings it will be gone.

Everyone wants these programs but they generally do not understand what it takes to get these off the ground and keep them running.

Unfortunately this year we have even less geldings than last year.

Its really easy to say you want more incentives but if people do not use the incentives we have they disappear.

There are also gelding incentive classes that people can show in but I think alot dont understand they can just show and win money. I know when we were showing Jet he won back quadruple his purchase price the very first year.

Regarding showing:

I see all sides of this issue. I also believe strongly in showing what you breed, but like many others we have been hit hard by the economy and have only done 1 show in the last two years. I love the sweat and work of getting a horse ready to show, but you have to have the money to do it. Life has changed drastically for a lot of us since 2009. I am lucky that I have sold to people that are out showing and bringing home ribbons with horses we have bred so I am eternally greatful to those people!

I have seen horses that shouldnt have won - win, but not nearly as much as some post. I am not a big farm or a big name trainer and we manage to bring home ribbons. There will always be a bit of politics in anything you do.

I do agree with not liking the extreme lengths some will go to for a ribbon. I can always tell when a horse is neck sweated because they get a very unnatural look to their neck. You can even see it in their pictures. I have seen horses with 2nd degree burns on their neck from sweating. I have seen weanlings with a neck sweat. Ughh. Sad stuff. We have only put a neck sweat on one horse over all these years and I couldnt stand it and took it off. stop the extreme sweating and breed a better neck.

Even if you dont show, you should go watch. Because you might be very surprised at what you see at a show both good and bad.

I just bought a gelding to use in the Super Gelding program for next year. I think it is wonderful and I wish to support it! I REALLY hope we don't loose it!

Other than at Nationals/Congress and Area shows, where are gelding incentive classes held?

 

[Riverrose28]

Ok, I've been showing horses since 1987, and minis since 1999. This is just my opinion and you can take it or leave it.

1. AMHA I believe they cater to the trainers, yes they bring in a lot of horses, but in this day and time with the economy being the way it is, not everyone can afford a trainer. They need to expand the AOTE program into more height divisions like they do with open. Reason: To encourage new exhibitors, and give more true ametuers a chance to suceed and want to continue showing. Fees are so high it is discouraging for a new person to pay and not even place. Nothing against trainers, I've used them, but in this econony it would help the ametuer trainers to continue.

2. Both registries need to cater to the new people, either offer a class for beginners or novice in lets say their first three years of showing, and include performance. In my opinion we need new people.

3.AMHR needs to start a AOTE division, I used to love to show AMHR as we could place but now the trainers are taking over in our area and it is great feeling when you beat a trainer, but we've been showing for years. It discourages the new people.

4. More breeding classes offered at the local shows. Seems they only offer limited classes for breeders, such as own bred and shown by, or produce of Dam, etc. at the area shows, not everyone can attend at that time.

5. This one I'm not even sure of until we get a standard, and now we are just a height registry, but someone to inspect stallions and certify if they are correct, such as not toeing out in front, etc. at least make sure they are conformationaly correct before breeding quality can be submitted.

I personally love geldings and as I've said before a good stallion makes a great gelding.

If you want to flame me OK, I've got my suit on, but on the other hand I would love to hear your thoughts on what I posted, just please be kind. Oh! I am loving this debate.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Ok, I've been showing horses since 1987, and minis since 1999. This is just my opinion and you can take it or leave it.

1. AMHA I believe they cater to the trainers, yes they bring in a lot of horses, but in this day and time with the economy being the way it is, not everyone can afford a trainer. They need to expand the AOTE program into more height divisions like they do with open. Reason: To encourage new exhibitors, and give more true ametuers a chance to suceed and want to continue showing. Fees are so high it is discouraging for a new person to pay and not even place. Nothing against trainers, I've used them, but in this econony it would help the ametuer trainers to continue.

2. Both registries need to cater to the new people, either offer a class for beginners or novice in lets say their first three years of showing, and include performance. In my opinion we need new people.

3.AMHR needs to start a AOTE division, I used to love to show AMHR as we could place but now the trainers are taking over in our area and it is great feeling when you beat a trainer, but we've been showing for years. It discourages the new people.

4. More breeding classes offered at the local shows. Seems they only offer limited classes for breeders, such as own bred and shown by, or produce of Dam, etc. at the area shows, not everyone can attend at that time.

5. This one I'm not even sure of until we get a standard, and now we are just a height registry, but someone to inspect stallions and certify if they are correct, such as not toeing out in front, etc. at least make sure they are conformationaly correct before breeding quality can be submitted.

I personally love geldings and as I've said before a good stallion makes a great gelding.

If you want to flame me OK, I've got my suit on, but on the other hand I would love to hear your thoughts on what I posted, just please be kind. Oh! I am loving this debate.

For most of what you have said I agree with you. I personally wish AMHR would have an AOTE for like their Area and National shows but there again you are adding more classes to the National bill. You almost need to split it in two shows have one show youth/ammy and then the other show open. But that I'm sure would be to hetic to do.

The breeding classes you see those classes filled at Nationals but local shows no. I don't see breeding classes in such a high demand.

The Amateur and Super Gelding programs seemed to get back doored, and I even think they need to do something better with their PMC program as well, but its hard to do with a limited budget. That being said it would defintelly help by bringing in new members.

 

[Minimor]

I would think that if a particular show has a need for novice classes it would add them in--that can certainly be done. Here the one year the local show did put in novice classes and no one entered them. I think there was one novice entry? After that they got dropped again. Some have mentioned that they should be added again, but why? There have been new people coming out to our shows but they have been happy to show in the open classes. AOTE I can see at Nationals; I would hope that it wouldn't be made a mandatory division for local shows because again some local shows simply don't have enough interest in amateur classes. Our local shows do offer regular ammy classes and overall they are very poorly supported. Same goes for Produce of Dam and Get of Sire--those classes do have to be offered but here no one enters them. (Yes, if you are showing AMHR those produce/get classes are required for so your local shows should already be offering them!) Owned bred & shown by classes would be kind of pointless for a lot of local shows--certainly for our local shows, because those classes would simply be a repeat of the open classes. Many of our open entries are being shown by their owners, and those owners also bred the horse.

A breed standard? The AMHR Standard of Perfection works perfectly well IMO. It gives a detailed listing of what the AMHR horse's conformation should be. No, it doesn't describe an exact type, and I don't believe that it should. I don't believe that there is any point in trying to describe exactly what an AMHR horse should look like in terms of type. As I said in another thread, the Morgan is a perfect example of why I think that way. The Morgan has pictures to show the ideal Morgan--but owners still do not agree on what a Morgan should look like in order to match those "ideal" pictures. There were different types of Morgans 50 years ago and there are different types of Morgans. Regardless of the type any particular owner has, he/she is likely to insist that his/her Morgan matches the ideal almost exactly. It doesn't matter if the Morgan is one that looks like a Standardbred, or a Saddlebred, or an Arab, or a QH or a western bred Morgan such as Waer's Don Juan (in my books as typey a Morgan as you'll find!)--it can be a Morgan with the homeliest of heads and the shortest of croups and the owner will still be likely to insist that it looks exactly like the pretty headed, good hipped horse that is held up as ideal in the "ideal Morgan" photos!

Now, I'm not sure what this has to do with geldings.....if we're talking geldings, which we were....I think instead of the super gelding program where yes, people will choose not to enter because they don't feel they show enough to give them a chance of winning anything (and as I recall, last year the payout was pretty poor--the winners got a little bit of spending money at the end of the year, but it wasn't enough to be a whole lot of incentive for anyone to get excited about the program this year)--instead of that program, something like the gelding incentive classes would be better.

Yes, I know that the funding to cover the payouts is a problem--it would cost a lot to offer gelding incentive money at every local show--but to me that is gelding promotion. There needs to be something to get people to bring their geldings out to the local shows. $50 or $80 in payout (as I recall that's all that some of the super gelding winners received last year?) at the end of the year isn't much. If there $50 or $80 available at each show, that might convince some to bring a gelding & try for that pot.