Getting a Mare to Accept Foal or Foal to Drink from Bucket

[Miniv]

Jill the dam is always the best solution, so if she will let him nurse, even if you have to be there, that is preferred.
One thing that may be happening is that with the prolapsed uterus she maybe having more pain than normal when he nurses. You might consider Banamine once a day for a couple of days and seeing if that helps her.

Also, Bag Balm does wonders if she has sore nipples. We use this on all the mares at about 6-12 hours after foaling as that is when they get sore. Colts are more aggressive feeders than fillies and he may be being a usual colt, but it is hurting her more.

As you have already discovered, the more room you give the colt to be able to get away from her the better. Avoid tight areas.

If he runs away does she follow him? You want her to bond with him. So if you can lead her away and he will follow and vice versa, that is a good thing and you are on your way.

When we have had problems I milk out the mare and feed the foal the milk from a margarine container held folded into a V. Giving the foal moms own milk does two things, it drains the dam's full udders and minimizes mastitis and gives the baby the formula that he should be eating.

I hope this helps you Jill.

I'm relieved to read that your mare is getting better with accepting her new baby.......

Joanne's post makes a lot of sense to me. Early on, the nursing can cause a major reaction to the mare's uterus with contractions. So if your mare had a prolapsed uterus, there may be some painful reactions occurring...... I agree with the suggestion of giving your mare some banamine for a couple of days to see if it makes a difference. (Check with your vet, of course, as well.)

 

[Jill]

Hi, Folks --

We're still having issues and actually, she seems to hate him more last night and this morning. Been giving her banamine. Actually, my vet said to stop it but feel I got better advice to continue to give her some and plan to keep on as long as I'm trying to make her accept him and she's acting like she is

However, I also need to really really try and get him on either a bucket or a bottle. It's hard because he can only go so long w/o eating and to make him most likely to take either of these things, he's got to be pretty hungry (desperate) enough to try. Can only milk so much from her because if I take too much and he's gone his 3hrs w/o eating and won't take it from the bucket or bottle, I obviously cannot put it back in her and worry she won't have enough then to fill him up.

I am so frustrated.

H hung a calf bottle in the stall and worked with him to accept last night with no go. We tried the bowl yesterday morning. I think maybe at the 8am feed time, we should give him a hung up calf bottle of milk (nipple coated in Maddie milk) and a low hung small bucket of milk, and a bowl of milk all in the same area of the stall... Try and get him to take the nipple on the bottle and if he won't leave him with those three options for an hour? I don't know though if that's okay. If he doesn't take any of those, there's 4hrs of no food. If he tried to "nurse" from any of those three things so much as he does my knees he'd be fat by now.

Also -- I do not have mini hobbles... Could I make maybe with trailer snap ties and some dog collars? Do they just go around her back ankles, vs. up to her chest / neck like breeding ones (I have neither).

Thanks for the advice and anyone who has some other ideas, please let me know. I'm starting to become really concered we're going to reach a point where I won't be able to force Maddie to stand still for him to nurse.

Thanks,

Jill



PS If I thought my fillies this year were keepers (and I do) times that by 100 right now on Trooper. I love him so much for all the time we spend with him and so sorry for him because of how Maddie treats him.

 

[Robin1]

Jill, the nipple on a calf bottle is probably too big for him. When I was bottle feeding one I just went to the grocery store and got a couple of baby bottles. Put a couple of holes in the nipple so he can get a better mouth full. If you have a good feed store near you call and see if they have any lamb nipples, it will be a better size for him and they do have buckets with lids (so flys don't get in it) that you attach the nipple to and it will keep the milk clean and the right temperature so he can get a couple of feedings and you can get some sleep. This was on a mare that never got milk but she would "mother" him.

We had a mare that tried to kill her filly (only when nobody was around). I thought she had finally taken to her but when I got in the house the barn camera showed the mare picking her up and throwing her across the stall. Needless to say, I ran back out to the barn where she just stood there looking at me like she was innocent. My vet felt that the mare had a low pain tolerance and blamed the baby.

The vet snubbed her nose to a post in the stall and braided her tail and then back up into itself so it mad a strong circle, pulled the mare against the wall and tied her tail to another post so she couldn't swing out to kick the foal. That sort of worked as long as I was standing there threatening her but as soon as you left (even for a minute) she was cow kicking at her. So eventually I had to hobble her on top of it and she still tried to get the baby.

I did sell the mare as a non breeding mare later that year. She had a pedigree to die for but she just wanted to kill that baby I didn't want to take a chance again. This was her second foal. She did kind of reject the first one for a couple of hours but wasn't so aggressive about it.

If you get him bottle feeding and she doesn't want anything to do with him, go get a playpen and put it in your bedroom, put down some bedding and bring him in at night. That way, at least you won't have to go out to the barn every couple of hours, just out to the kitchen to warm some milk.

Good Luck,

Robin

 

[Jill]

Robin --

Thank you for the advice!!!!!

I never even thought of bringing him inside, and I may just do that!

For the bottle, I'm so tired it is hard to tell what I'm leaving out or not saying right yet asking you all for advice based on what half ---ed way I have of describing what I'm dealing with. It is a calf bottle (huge) but the feed store did give is a lamb's nipple for it vs. a calf one. It seems about the right size. H took it out and set it up while I was trying to sleep a bit. He came got me b/c a cathater came out of Maddie (had already talked to the vet about what to do for the med if it happened) so we took that all the way out of her.

Anyway, I asked H if he was sure he "could" nurse from that bottle, ie was milk coming out. He said he should be able to and he'd coated it in syrup and Maddie milk and he had licked it but not latched on. So, I don't care I swear anymore. I don't think there's a horse germ I wouldn't have in my body by now. I got down on my hands and knees and tested it to be sure it works for nursing. It works. I'd already tasted the Foal Lac before when we'd mixed some and that's what came out.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Not sure I'm going to get through this sane but then probably didn't come into it that way!

Thanks again. I appreciate it so much!

Jill

 

[Jill]

PS if we can get him on this bottle and can't find one of the nipple bucket things (haven't looked yet but will), I was thinking I could wrap the bottle and it's holder in a neoprene neck sweat. Does anyone know / think that would work to help maintain temp? I think that insulin wallets are made out of that stuff (think they are, but mine doesn't have to be fridged when in use -- just have to not use for more than 30 days).

I like the Igloo nurser idea too, but not sure I can get him to latch onto an outward pointing nipple (as I can't get him yet to latch onto one pointing down like he's used to).

ALSO anyone know how long I can let him go w/o eathing w/o killing him as I try to make him desperate enough to do the foal lac? I am really worried we're reaching the point of Maddie kicking at him as we hold her or not allowing us to hold her. I love the braided tail idea but she has her vulva stitched up and all that internal trama so I'm scared to do that to her and make her worse physically.

I was advised by someone I trust 110% to cross tie her but I don't see a way to in the stall and even if I could find a way, the size of the stall I don't think he'd be out of her reach really as far as kicking. I could maybe snub tie and hobble her if I can find a way to hobble, but based on her getting pain meds and acting more and more resentful to him, I just think we are heading fiurther from hopes of her accepting. I have also rompom her previously and could agan but you'd be amazed how little this effects her (and the vet had to give Trooper 40% as much as a FULL SIZE foal and he was still very strong and struggling as we did the plasma... must be tough genes!). I do have some dormosedan but not sure this is okay or even useful based on her growing further away from caring even a little about him.

Also, to answer someone else, he will sort of follow her if we lead her away. I can make her follow him only if I lead her. When we take him out to let him run around the yard, every other horse on the property is calling to him and curious about him EXCEPT for her. She couldn't care less.

 

[kaykay]

Jill

Im so sorry for what you are going through and I know you have to be physically and mentally exhausted.

I think at this point I would probably give up on her bonding with the foal before you make yourself nuts with worry.

I think you have to just decide which to go with and just go with one----either a pan or a bottle. I know Fran went through this and had to use a very very shallow pan and the foal finally started drinking from it. It was almost like a plate with a small lip. I think this worked because horses in general think things are deeper then they are and get scared so a flatter pan was less scarey.

I had to use what was posted above. A very old fashioned cheap baby bottle. It was the only thing my foal would nurse from. We used a hot needle to make the holes a bit bigger. But since you have to go to work etc I think a pan would work better for you so he can eat even when your not there. I know after a few days Fran didnt have to heat the milk up anymore and they will drink it room temp or even cool.

Sending good thoughts

Kay

 

[Minimor]

Try a kitten bottle, with its tiny little nipple. Seriously. It's the only thing I've had success with. I know the bottle is tiny, and the nipple useless on anything bigger, but it can be an intermediate step--a way to get him nursing on a bottle & drinking the milk replacer. Like I said earlier, once he'll drink it from a bottle then it's just one step away from drinking it out of a bowl. For some reason foals seem to love those tiny little nipples.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi Jill

I am sorry you are still having problems with this precious baby eating. I thought for sure after seeing some of your photos that the mare had taken to him by now, vs. I have no advice as this happened to me only once so far and it was many years ago. I do remember how hard it was to feed the baby and keep her going until they finally bonded. My mare was a maiden too. Someone told me, that in my case the momma was a new momma and was afraid to let her baby out of site, so she would turn to follow the baby each time it moved, so she did not stand still enough for the baby to eat. She finally developed some trust and allowed the baby to nurse where she was not trying to watch it all the time. In the meantime however, we had to tie her to the fence with lead and rope around her flanks, lift her leg for baby to eat and so on. Believe me the so on, went on for quite a while.

I have heard others say on here though, that it was easier for them to teach the baby to drink out of bowl rather than a bottle?

I don't think I would keep her on banamine either, if she is sore just milk her out. That is just my thoughts on it, banamine can cause other problems too, and most Vets do not recommend giving drugs like that to lactating mares.

*** I wonder if just giving them LOTS of room and turning them loose would work. With supervision of course. I wonder if we don't interfer too much some times. Not saying that you are. I did have a Vet tell me one time not to feed the baby and let him get hungry, then he would nurse. I closed my eyes, held my breath and did what the Vet said. It worked!

I wish you the best of luck......I hope this situation turns around quickly for you.

 

[Genie]

I have only had experience with one foal who needed to drink from a bowl as I was never able to get him to accept the bottle/nipple.

If the little guy will suck your fingers then you might try a small pail and put your hand in the milk with fingers up and when he is trying to suck your fingers he will start getting some milk on his own from the pail and realize that it's easier to drink it from the pail as trying to get some milk from your fingers. (when he tries sucking from your fingers pull your finger tips deeper in the milk so he has to try to find them in the milk. (we did this with calves all the time as our operation was dairy so the calf only got a day or two with mum and then on to the pail)

With our foal I was able to get him to drink from a syringe and kept the syringe over the bowl of milk and kept getting the tip of the syringe closer to the bowl and then eventually he just drank from the bowl. I didn't think of the calf procedure until later.

It is very troubling and your mare must also be in some distress as she had such a terrible experience.

I hope you can figure something out.

 

[Horse Feathers]

Can you take the baby to work with you? I know it sounds dumb, but until he is older, you would be able to work.

Good Luck

 

[Jill]

Thanks SO MUCH everyone!!! It means a lot to me all of you trying to help and giving me your good advice.

Okay -- I have gotten him to sip a little from a bowl two different times. But the last time he did it, then he wouldn't anymore and he started shivering. I was afraid it wasn't because he was cold but maybe extremely weak since he's not been getting as much as he's used to getting since the last time he got to nurse the "normal" amount of time from Maddie....... which now I cannot remember was it 1:30 or did I let him go as long at 4:30 too? H says he drank a long time at 4:30 and he probably right.

I've left him now in the stall less hungry (but only nursed about 1/5 as long as he normally would after 3hrs from Maddie). Got the bowl in there. It's a metal dog bowl that will be hard to tip, only it holds more way more than he needs meaning he'd have to stick his head further in (it's maybe 3" deep?). It's very full now way more than he'd eat probably in 2 days. I think I'm going to see if I can set another bowl inside it when we refresh the milk.

*sigh*

 

[Frankie]

I see you are making progress, but just in case I thought I'd add something.

Prints was born with no sucking reflex so even a bottle wasn't an option.

For a pail, an ole farmer said the material had to be wood. So I bought a wooden salad bowl, (all I could find). Something about the way their tongue grabs hold of it. Put Kayro around the rim and let it run down the sides. Milk was in the bottom fourth of the bowl. I held it up just a little for her. It took her I believe a day and a half, but it worked. That was after about 10 days of nothing. I was willing to try anything!

Just in case you needed idea number 200.

Best of luck!

 

[Magic]

Oh Jill, what an exhausting thing to be going through! I have no ideas as I've never gone through this myself (yet), but I'm soaking up all the suggestions. This may need to end going on the "best of" part of LB. I sure wish you luck on getting your little one to eat on his own, poor sweetie!

 

[Jill]

Thank you so much everyone and I have an UPDATE!!! I will cross post to the other thread about him.

He is drinking from a bowl!!! He drank about 1/2 a cup quickly when I went out around 11am. Then I fooled some with Maddie and went in and he drank another 2 ounes so like 3/4 a cup! The directions say a full size foal should have 3 cups every 3 hours SO I think that was right much!!! I am holding it up to him to drink, but he does. I hope he will soon find it on the stall floor and boy will life be easier for everyone. It already is though as I think I have given up on Maddie taking to him.

I'm going out in about an hour to give him a fresh bowl of foal lac then I am going to take the world's best nap!!!

 

[Magic]

Yay!!! What a relief! Enjoy your nap!

 

[Crabby-Chicken]

So glad to hear he is doing better. I bet you have a nice bunch of ulcers. I was almost sick when my mare wouldn't let her baby nurse and that was just half a day of fighting with her.

Hope he gains weight and feels better soon!

 

[billiethekid40]

Jill, can you set the bowl on something like a stool or a box so he doesn't have to reach down to the floor to drink? Might be easier for him...think of the raised diners they use for large breed dogs so they don't have to bend to eat.

 

[Barbie]

Jill-

Hope he continues to drink from a bowl for you so you can have a LONG nap.

Several years ago, Tam & Dan from Amazing Grace had a bowl baby - mom would never accept the baby. He spent the nights in their bathroom. Before bedtime he would wander the house. If they went outside, Goober went outside. He was a lot of fun and grew up to be a really nice stallion (just a little spoiled).

Good luck - sounds like you're on the right track. Persistence pays off!!!

Barbie

 

[~Lisa~]

Thank goodness Jill once they totally get the bowl they get it. I made up bottles of foal lac and had them in the fridge full and ready to go so all I had to do was grab one heat it up and pour it in the bowl rather then fussing with a new batch. It will last 24 hours in the fridge.

I did find that at first she really drank better when it was warm milk and that I did have to lift the bowl to her for about 24-48 hours till I could get to the point where she would see me pour it and then come and drink on her own.

 

[Maxi'sMinis]

I'm so glad to hear your little baby boy is coming along. You have done a wonderful job with him. He sure is such a lovely colt.