Harness Question

[jbrat]

I was just looking thru driving pics in the photo forum, and I noticed that several of you don't wrap the holdbacks around the shaft, it's ran thru the keeper ( I think it is called) that would be alot easier than trying to wrap all that around and then run it thru the keeper. Can I just run it thru there and cut it to fit rather than wrapping it and it still work just as good, just be easier to do?

 

[disneyhorse]

You know what's even better Jbrat?

Wrapping the holdbacks around the shaft and putting SNAPS on them so you can just snap them to the ring on the breeching!!!

Andrea

 

[jbrat]

Andrea -Thats what I do too.

The wrapping just looks so sloppy but maybe thats the wrapper's fault.

I could still snap to the breeching ring w/o all the bulky strap wrapped around the shaft.

I'll do whatever is best/safest but the easier the better too!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Actually in Andrea's method the holdback straps are still wrapped but the entire holdback strap has a snap to attach it to the breeching ring. The holdback literally stays both wrapped and buckled on the shaft all the time, even when the cart is unhitched. It's something some of the marathon people do, but be careful to use solid weight-bearing snaps that will hold up to stress if the horse bucks or something.

If done correctly wraps shouldn't look messy. Unwrapped holdback straps look messy to me because when the horse is in draught they droop and gape sloppily. I just checked all my driving books and even the best ones that go into great detail on why you adjust the harness certain ways don't seem to cover why you must wrap it, but they are all emphatic that you must. I can think of one or two reasons in my current sleep-fogged state: First, most people want their harness to be useful on more than one horse or more than one cart with the same horse. If you cut the strap off to fit, you are in big trouble if you need a longer one later. Secondly, it's important to learn the technique of wrapping because if you did ever move that cut-off holdback strap to another cart and suddenly found it too long, the only way to adjust it shorter is to wrap it. You get a lot more adjustability with wrapping and buckling than with buckling alone. I'm sure the other reasons have something to do with preventing the horse from getting a foot through it if they buck, holding the trace up properly (it's supposed to run through the open space in the buckled holdback strap), and just plain neatness. Most harnesses do NOT fit well without wrapping, and most people don't want to cut the strap and repunch the holes.

I think I'm going to bed now! I hope that made some sense. I'll ask around this weekend at my driving trial and see if anyone has any better answers for you.

Leia

Edited to add: I think the "keeper" you're referring to is the footman's loop. You're supposed to run the holdback strap through that first underneath the shaft, then wrap up and over going forward (you shouldn't have to wrap more than three times, max- once is good), tuck it back under the single wrap closest to the footman's loop and buckle it back into itself over the shaft. Some of the cheaper synthetics or poor quality leather will indeed look very bulky when wrapped, but good correct-fitting harness should not.

 

[Minimor]

I thought the reason for wrapping the holdback straps around the shaft was primarily for safety. Properly wrapped the straps tighten around the shaft & will hold the vehicle back even if something...the buckle?...were to break. If it's just looped through the footman's loop & the buckle breaks, that's it, there is nothing there.

As well, some vehicles--our antique cutter was like this--don't have footman's loops, they just have a stop on the bottom of the shaft. The holdbacks have to be wrapped around the shaft ahead of this stop--it's impossible to just loop them through anything. Good to know how to wrap properly if you happen to get such a vehicle.

Properly wrapped straps are actually very neat looking IMO, and once you get the hang of it the wrapping is easy & quick. We one time tried the method of wrapping the straps on the shafts & leaving them there & just snapping a snap to the holdback rings on the harness, but I didn't really like it. Now with the Minis, since we're driving different sized horses the holdbacks have to be adjusted differently for various horses, so there's little value in using a snap--it's just as easy to wrap them each time. I wouldn't ever cut off the straps, even if you're only driving one horse--sometime down the road you might want to drive a different one & then they won't fit. Or you might get a different vehicle that require a different length of strap.

 

[evedex]

Hold back straps should be through the footman loop AND wrapped around the shafts in front of the loop, with the end of the strap laced back under the first wrap. (number of wraps depends on length of strap). You should NEVER use snaps as this is a weak point....I have seen them break and suddenly there is NO britching and the carriage can then hit the back of the horse. This is often followed by a run away!

This is a safety issue, completely. The wrap and lacing back through makes a sort of a knot and if the strap were to break (the buckle holes are the weakest point of the straps) the strap would be still held in place until you can stop the vehicle to repair it.

The reason you see some straps just through the footman loop, is because the strap is too short. This is not safe and if your harness doesn't have long enough straps for at least one loop, you should have longer ones made....not a costly proposition.

Please remember that safety should be first and foremost in your mind at all times, especially when driving. An accident can happen so quickly and beyond the obviouls chance of injury to you or your horse, often a horse involved in even a small mishap will not be confident to ever drive again.

Please play safe!!!

 

[jbrat]

Thank you all for your help!

I'm working on the wrapping technique. :bgrin Thanks for the great explanations on how to properly wrap them. :aktion033:

How tight do I want the breeching? I thought I had about a hands space bwt the mini and the breeching. but when I ask him to back it seems like he was pushng back from the saddle and the breeching didn't tighten up around his butt. So I'm assuiming I need to tighten it up some.

Does anyone have a trick or tip on knowing how the breeching and hold backs should be properly adjusted?

Thanks again

 

[Minimor]

I used to use about a hands width for the breeching on the Morgans. For the minis, I'd say 1/3 to 1/2 that. Maybe half a hand or a bit less on the taller B's and 1/3 or a bit less on the smaller ones.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

The rule with big horses is that you should supposedly be able to fit your hand (held flat with all four fingers together, index finger against the horse and pinky against the breeching) between the breeching and the horse's rump when they are in draft. Given the difference in scale I tend to say two to three fingers worth on a mini depending on the size of your hand. What's really important though is the balance of your overall harnessing. The breeching should come into play before the tugs are pushed more than slightly forward to ensure that the horse is braking from their rump and not their withers but should not be so tight as to interfer with their movement. From your description I'd say you definitely need to tighten your breeching so your horse is not goosed by it suddenly slamming into his rump when he stops. Each element of a good harness setup should smoothly integrate with every other element, the breeching coming into play when the traces slacken and visa versa. No visible gaping, no slamming, and no roping the horse in so tightly that he feels like he's trapped!

: Picture how smoothly the two pendular balls of one of those perpetual motion thingies transfer their energy- that's what you want.

Leia

 

[jbrat]

Thanks I took my harnessing lessons from a book (can ya tell) I've been tweaking the fit for a year now and I'm still not happy. The boys are pulling the cart and doing great but each drive I see something I want to tweak.

The breeching is definately a problem, I'll tighten it up next drive. There's no slamming or anything but sometimes a bunch of slack in the traces(usually when slowing or stopping). I want that perfect fit where everythings works "smoothly" together, like you explained Leia - Its taking me awhile but I'll get it someday.

: I've learned alot more on here :lol: :lol: then thru the books.

I think I'm going to remove the side checks too, they just seem to get in my way.

Driving class require a side or over check don't they? Sorry, I'm sure thats been discussed on here before but I forget. I'm thinking,Yes, you have to use checks in the show ring? - But no breeching

:

Thanks again for the help :bgrin

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hehehe, correct. AMHA or R shows require a check of some kind and breeching is typically frowned upon, and ADS shows do not allow checks but breeching is required. Your local saddleclub show can go either way depending on whose rules they follow.

Don't feel like the fact your harness isn't working yet is all your fault. From the pictures it looks like you have a generic synthetic harness and on some of those there isn't really any way to get everything smooth because the material itself is stiff enough that your traces will always drape when not actively pulling and your breeching will always gape a little. Just do the best you can and as long as your horse is comfortable, you've done well!

Leia

 

[rabbitsfizz]

But I HAVE to point out (merely because I am me!!) that nothing in either rule book states that the check rein has to DO anything- ie you can have it as loose as you like so long as it does not trip up the horse behind you.

Oh and I cannot find anything to stay that the check has to be attached to the bit, either- perhaps someone else could have a look into that as I am only one pair of eyes/interpretation and I have a definite axe to grind!!

 

[Margo_C-T]

Don't be too quick to think that there is something seriously wrong with the adjustment of your traces if they 'slacken' or droop just a bit when you are slowing or stopping; that is what 'should' happen, esp. with properly-adjusted breeching!(If they didn't 'droop' at all, it might mean your breeching was too tight...) Yes, it would be a bit more evident with bio/bio beta harness, which IS 'stiffer'. When adjusting your breeching as you hook, be sure that the vehicle is 'pushed back'(for want of a better term!),so that the traces are NOT 'drooping' and are as fully extended as you can get them without the horse actually being in draft(draught)-which just means that the horse is actually in the act of 'pulling' the vehicle and its load. For the best/most proper adjustment of the breeching, you want the horse standing squarely between the shafts-not have its body 'angled' (this is not as much of an issue with a Frontier EE, or most 'straight shafted' carts, even such as show carts and/or road carts, but more of one with a cart like my Bennington, where the shafts come 'straight forward' for a ways, then 'turn in' to be closer to the horse's side at the point where they lie in the tug loops-this configuration allows the horse more room to move their hips over and helps to accomplish tighter turns-by contrast, most 'straight' shafts taper inward toward each other continuously from the attachment to the cart up to where the shafts lie in the tug loops. I believe the Bellcrown,the new Smart Cart, and probably the new IteBte, also have this kind of shaft configuration-it truly DOES allow the horse to turn more easily--but also requires closer attention to the proper adjustment of the breeching, in my experience.

Another thing to keep in mind is the height of the tug loops. Remembering that you want the shafts to 'float' in the tug loops, you want to keep in mind that if they are too high, the shaft tips(of straight shafts, at least) may 'poke' the horse in the neck when turning; if they are too low, it will be even harder to achieve the proper balance of the cart(the 'float')when the driver is in the cart--and the shaft tip may 'poke' the horse in the shoulder...and the horse probably won't like EITHER of those scenarios. (You can actually 'see' the shafts 'floating'; if they are, even with wrap straps, you should be able to tell that the tug loop hanger straps are slightly 'floppy', whereas if not(as when you sit, or lean, forward), they will clearly be 'taut', meaning there is considerable WEIGHT actually being bourne in the tug loops, and therefore, on the horse's back via the harness saddle.

So, don't hesitate to keep on 'tweaking' as you critically observe how things go as you drive!

Happy driving!

Margo