Have you had a dwarf born on your Farm

[alongman]

Go Parmela Go!!!!

 

[Hosscrazy]

I never thought I would be saying this but yes, I just had a dwarf born from my mare in my avatar. She is now 4 months old. I have been breeding for 13 years and this is my first.

Liz R.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Parmela, I am sending you the sire and dam that produced the dwarf I had for your personal research.. AND I did geld the sire..

Thanks ML. I appreciate it.

I never thought I would be saying this but yes, I just had a dwarf born from my mare in my avatar. She is now 4 months old. I have been breeding for 13 years and this is my first.
Liz R.

Liz, So sorry this happened. I hope your little one is as healthy as can be!

It's great of you to come forward because it really demonstrates how we can never, ever know for sure. 13 years is a LONG time and I'm sure at that point you probably figured you weren't at risk. But I guess there just is still so much we don't know about this gene and how it really works.

Folks, it can happen in anyones' program.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We had one dwarf born this year ( our only dwarf ever) that didn't make it. We bought both the sire and dam ( cheap) from a guy who just wanted to get rid of them. He'd been running them together. Both were from the same farm, but unrelated. Both didn't look dwarfy. Mare is highly bred- Prince Tennesse Monashee granddaughter and goes back to Rowdy.

We didn't breed her back and the stallion will be gelded when we get enough fundage together. He will make an awesome gelding. We did not breed him to anyone else, thank Heaven!

Lucy

 

[wildoak]

The only foals we've had in nearly 12 years of breeding that had "issues" were very early on. The first's spine was twisted and he was very small, but otherwise correct. I answered yes on the poll, but I didn't know then - and still don't - whether he was truly a dwarf. Sire and dam were both small so the size was to be expected. His bite was correct, his legs were fine - and I don't know whether the scoliosis was a function of dwarfism or not. I know of course it's not necessarily in humans, but this was the only horse I'd ever seen with it. We had one other colt who was from all appearance normal but had tremendous bone. He was a normal size foal, but I'll bet he weighed over 30 pounds at birth. I was stunned when I picked him up the first time. Looking back at the mare now, she was a big boned, much coarser mare than I would consider now.

Both mares were sold years ago, one of the stallions was sold and gelded and the other is not in my breeding program anymore.

Neither of these foals were what I would have immediately called a dwarf, and neither were things I had encountered before, but in retrospect I have to question both.

Jan

 

[McBunz]

I think it would be interesting to see how many of these dwarfs were born in the last five yrs. since we have learned more from reading LB..

Another thing that would be interesting is if these are AMHA or AMHR horses.. and if AMHR A or B division... If the majority are AMHA .... then

should we be closing the registery..?????

 

[Margo_C-T]

I would wholeheartedly agree that the research is VITAL, and would be the first to stand up and APPLAUD the development of a reliable test to identify, then be able to determine whether a horse carries, the single or combo of genes that is responsible for dwarfism in one or more form!!

Tagalong, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. When I do a Mendelian square, it tells me that two Carriers would have a statisitical probability of producing 50% Carriers, NOT 75%--along with a 25% chance of procuding a Dwarf, and a 25% chance of producing a 'Clear'(non-carrier, non-dwarf). (The source ALongman cites is very 'standard' regarding autosomal recesssive/autosomal dominant traits; and I believe that at least the most commonly seen forms of dwarfism in MINIATURE HORSES are VERY likely autosomal recessive-JMO, of course.)

Not sure what you are referring to when you say something about a 25% chance of "producing a cross" between two Carriers; did you mean 'dwarf', when you put 'cross'? And what statistics support your reference to an even less than 25% chance of a live birth? I am at a loss to know what that refers to in the context of the current discussion?

It is well-recognized that a relatively small number of occurances can not 'prove' the statistical probabilites of ANYTHING--meaning that YES, someone could breed a given Carrier pair for that pair's breeding LIFETIME(horses), and never have a fullblown Dwarf--that's EXACTLY why we NEED a test--we are in 100% agreement there!

And, NO, currently,NO ONE could EVER state that they would never produce a dwarf in their breeding program! However, once a dwarf is born, that is (to me) a clear indicator that two Carriers are involved, and I personally take that as a sign to NOT breed EITHER of them to ANYTHING again, until such time as a test is developed and can be applied.

Margo

 

[tagalong]

When I do a Mendelian square, it tells me that two Carriers would have a statisitical probability of producing 50% Carriers, NOT 75%--along with a 25% chance of procuding a Dwarf, and a 25% chance of producing a 'Clear'(non-carrier, non-dwarf). (The source ALongman cites is very 'standard' regarding autosomal recesssive/autosomal dominant traits; and I believe that at least the most commonly seen forms of dwarfism in MINIATURE HORSES are VERY likely autosomal recessive-JMO, of course.)

I was not clear I guess. Too much going on around here to focus on what I was trying to say, I guess!

I'll try again.

And we do agree.

I said that if the gene was recessive - with all the major lines contributing the dwarf gene to our current minis, that IMO as many as 75% of the current stock might be carriers. That had nothing to do with the Mendelian square. Just a guess on my part - to the high end - which I fear may not be far from fact. The lowest it might be - again JMO - is 50%.

Two carriers... have a 25% chance of producing a full-blown dwarf. A 25% chance of producing a non-carrier. And a 50% chance of producing another carrier.

And what statistics support your reference to an even less than 25% chance of a live birth? I am at a loss to know what that refers to in the context of the current discussion?

No statistics. Just breeding experience/basic conception rates. The old LFG issue.

Just as not every breeding produces a foal in the best of circumtances, not every dwarf foal - with all the physical issues involved - is going to actually arrive in the straw. Many will be reabsorbed or aborted - sometimes without anyone knowing. So within that 25% window of producing a dwarf foal from two carriers, the actual percentage of live foals will be even less. How does that figure into the current discussion? A mare may have slipped or reabsorbed a dwarf foal early on - without anyone's knowledge. And yet when bred back the next year she may have a normal foal. So the breeder may not be aware that the potential is there - and they will still never have had a dwarf born on their farm. We simply do not know.

Was that clearer?

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

I think it would be interesting to see how many of these dwarfs were born in the last five yrs. since we have learned more from reading LB..Another thing that would be interesting is if these are AMHA or AMHR horses.. and if AMHR A or B division... If the majority are AMHA .... then

should we be closing the registery..?????

My mare is an AMHR/AMHA 31" horse, the stallion is AMHR but with AMHA bloodlines. He is 32".

Lucy

 

[shane]

hi guys i cant seeem to register, so

i did breed my horse which resulted in a dwarf

i gelded the stallion

before the foal was born

i sold the mare before i knew the foal was a dwarf, due to my own health reasons

i informed the previous owner who bought her back and didnt hear me

and had bred her back already

and i offered to buy her back as i would never breed again......

i still have the dwarf,and keep him as a pet.....

i would like to think if i had of known that the foal was a serious dwarf, i would definatley have put him to sleep....

this is such a good poll....

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I want to thank those that have PMd me with information regarding dwarves born at their farm. I know it's not pleasant but I appreciate having the information. As I've said before, this is not a list I'm going public with but I do appreciate those that are trying to reduce the possibility of creating more of these little creatures in the future. I will share the information with John if he's interested. But please know that he also keeps this information confidential.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Good Poll - I do hope more people will participate. thousands seem to be reading but not a whole lot of posting!!!!

We've had one dwarf aborted preterm (9-10 months) from a mare that had nine previous foals. I've seen her downline to great-grand babies from two daughters, grand-babies and, great-grandbabies (I do not own them) with no issues at least that I've seen or heard of from people owning this line. The sire from a line of prominant Grand NC's (his sire and grandsire both GNC and dams side full of Top Tens/NCs). He hasn't sired any others that I'm aware of either (I don't own him) and I've seen 22+ foals and his first foal crop have reproduced without problem as well. So ??? That was an unexpected one! One you'd love to ahhh! I knew ... would do this or she has ... wrong. But that isn't the case so?

I did buy a mare that the breeder told me had the cutest tiny palomino colt (never sent photos though!). Well when the mare arrived with the rest of the purchases I was "Who had the dwarf?" Someone's idea of tiny was my idea of dwarf!!! She had very nice foals before the dwarf (saw those in person and photos of them) so the breeder convinced me this was not likely to happen again. The mare was bred to a different stallion had a horrific dystocia. The very dead filly was 100% normal per UCD, just had a horrid presentation - upside down, sitting dog style - ugh! That was enough for me.

The dwarf was placed with a family and the mare sold as 'no breed' to someone with full disclosure that she had multiple foaling problems. (I wish we could sell with No Breeding across paperwork!)

Other than that we have one mare here that has been classed as not a dwarf (had John look at her photos) but to me she's a funny looking child anyway and IMHO shouldn't be bred. I'm afraid to sell her as there are enough people out there (I've seen what's in their herds) that would breed her without a second thought. She has a beautiful head, neck, level topline, gorgeous color, but is too long backed/short legged for my tastes. One of those life learning lessons - parents that are both 'small' and breeding for small you still need to look at the overall conformation of the two as far as complimenting and correcting flaws! When they're both a bit long in the back and a bit shorter legged than not - surprise - you get a a more magnified version of those faults - duh!!!

Also had one stallion here (not mine) bred to a few mares - not mine again (long story on why you shouldn't do favors). He sired a dwarf (placed with sedeh on the forum out of a big B size pony looking mare), had a mare that was put down at foaling ( foal was stuck and breeder refused to c-section), and one foal born that was born that just wasn't right - it died day 2-3 after the dam rejected it. The owner sold this stallion (I told her he should be gelded but she insisted this was not his fault - it was viral or environmental or ? The new owner contacted me later and I told her what I knew regarding his breeding here but that it was not proven other than what I saw/experienced. She said he'd been siring correct foals and intended to keep him intact. So what do you do? I'm all for not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and possibly there was something else involved, but that was too many 'problems' for me - he'd have been gelded if I owned him no question.

Other than that in nine years of breeding (80+ foals) and delivering well over 150 foals - that is it! I'd love to say zero, but the odds haven't been horrible so far. But I'm a big believer in DNA/PQ testing, knowing pedigrees and overall good conformation and continually educating myself!!!

John's research is vital as is any other research on dwarfism. It will be nice to one day say it's a thing of the past or a real rarity!!!!

I do keep a running list like Parmela - I'm going to be contacting you to compare some notes Parmela!!!! Just a few things I'd like to get your input on.

 

[Shortpig]

I think it's great that so many have participated. And for those who are so very upfront about the dwarves born at their farms. Kudos to you.

As I've said before never had a dwarf or any with dwarf characteristics. All foals were without any problems at all and I truly thank God for that.

I quit breeding for a couple reasons. Too many horses being produced in all the breeds. My stock is getting older and deserves to be retired. Well all but Jimmy Dolittle he doesn't think he should have to stop breeding. And also I became a nervous wreck at foaling time and couldn't handle it anymore.

My best wishes to all of you and good luck with next years foal crop. I still enjoy seeing the pics of all the new foals.

They are all so cute however I must say these special little ones have taken my heart. I've been able to see a couple of them grow up and they are just so sweet. I wouldn't wish it on them though for the health issues they live with daily.

 

[horsehug]

I think it is also important to listen to the opinions of those very respected breeders with integrity who have many many years of experience and very large herds which give a better picture of dwarfism's percentages than any of us smaller breeders who only have a few foals a year.

There are lots of newbies being added to the forum each day who may have not read these posts.

The post by Tony of Little America was made back in 2001 and I dont think there is a link to it on the forum now but I saved it and will attach it.

And here is a link to a post giving the Little King Farm perspective from Jan of 2006.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.ph...arfism+research

Neither of them advocate totally taking carriers out of the breeding pool. They are honest breeders who both very much want what is the best for the breed and have both in my opinion contributed greatly to the miniature breed.

Susan O.

 

[LisaF.]

I think it would be interesting to see how many of these dwarfs were born in the last five yrs. since we have learned more from reading LB..Another thing that would be interesting is if these are AMHA or AMHR horses.. and if AMHR A or B division... If the majority are AMHA .... then

should we be closing the registery..?????

McBunz - I have to admit I am a little confused on your quote above. I am thinking we would be trying to get rid of the bloodline that is producing dwarfs - Not the registry - Am I correct on this?

I think this is a great poll - I did have to answer N/A to your question - Positive dwarf test in the future, because I get very attached to my horses and I hate to admit it, but I get attached to some more than others. So, if I was extremely attached I would not sell the mare or the gelding. I hope that makes since.

I need to look back and find out exactly how many years I have been breeding - I know it is around 7 or 8 years.

My very first foal was a dwarf - I was so uneducated about dwarfs at the time I didn't even realize she was a dwarf when she was first born. In fact, when she was first born I could not tell she was a dwarf. To make a long story short it didn't take long to figure it out and I had planned on her having a forever home with me. At eight months old, my vet and I decided she was in too much pain and we had to put her to sleep it was extremely heartbreaking for me.

Now, I did sell the stallion and the mare to different farms. I had a computer crash and I have lost a lot of information from back then.

Oh, I should add this was the stallions first foal and the mares first foal ever.

I did loose money on each horse- I am not sure if the stallion was used for breeding. I do know the mare has had one healthy foal the following year bred to a different stallion.

I was upfront with each new owner and told them what had happened - that they had produced a dwarf with their very first foal.

Thanks to the LB forum - I did learn NOT to breed these two back together again.

Now, I have never had another dwarf since then. I hope I never have to go through that again, but I also know I may have to someday. That is why I wish there was a test and I am so HAPPY John is working on that.

Now, I will say this - PLEASE NO FLAMES - but, I would like some peoples opinions.

This is just an example - Say, you have a very high dollar mare and stallion that have been bred to each other year after year - and say they have produced 10 healthy very good quality foals. Then - you had a dwarf - Now, I would think you would NOT breed them back again to each other. But, would you geld the stallion that had - 10 healthy foals from this one mare and say 10 healthy foals from 5 other mares?

Would the mare that had 10 healthy foals - Would you breed her to a different stallion?

I do not know if something like this has ever happened - I am just thinking out loud I guess.

I personally think that I would try again with both - but, I would NEVER breed them back to each other.

I hope I made myself clear - if you agree I hope you will let me know - If you don't agree - I would like to know why without personal attacks.

Now, as far as if we ever get a gene test - YES, I would test all my horses. When I purchased a miniature horse - stallion or mare - If the owner had not had them tested, I would offer to pay for the test if the owner would allow it.

So, I am not saying we should keep taking chances, but until there is a test I think the statement above with the healthy foals would be ok - if bred to different stallion or mare.

I know what I am trying to say - I hope it is coming out where others can understand.

Horsehug - I guess we were posting at the same time - thank you for posting the articles. I am getting ready to read them.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Wow. Very thought-provoking. Thank you for posting Tony's old post. I have a ton of respect for Tony and always appreciate, and learn from, his insight.

 

[LisaF.]

We can imagine that people are afraid that their entire herd, years of work and money could be wiped out if this gene was identified and forced to be eliminated from the gene pool. It has been estimated by many experienced breeders that as many as 50-75% of minis carry this gene. If these were all eliminated - what would we breed? There would not be a large enough gene pool to substantiate the miniature horse economy and registries as they are now. It is much more benefical for all of the breeders, associations and businesses involved to learn how to live with the genetic profile these miniatures have and work within those parameters towards a common goal. In time, a gene like dwarfism can be minimalized and in long term eliminated thru genetic selection and knowledged breeding. The idea is not to scare people away, but to recognize the situation and look toward a future that is benefical for both horse and breeder.

horsehug - thank you for posting the thread from Little King Farm Above - This is a partial quote from their thread and Tony from Little America Farm below.

I will bold above in the Little King Farm post - that concerns me.

I will have to type the part from Little America Farm below - For some reason it would not let me copy or paste it ( or maybe it was just me).

I think if a test was developed it could be a good thing,and, on the other hand, it could be a catastrophic thing. What if the gene was isolated and it was determined that EVERY miniature carries it? What then?

The above quote is from Little America Miniature Horses

Please read the complete post from Little King Farm and Little America Farm. I only quoted the parts that concern me.

I will put the parts that concerns me in bold.

Ok, PLEASE correct me if I am wrong - I guess the dwarf gene is a lot more common than I thought. So, from the above post that I have bolded it sounds to me like anywhere from 50 % - 75%- to 100% could carry the dwarf gene.

At the very least if the percentages are correct - then half of our miniature horses could carry this dwarf gene. So, if we stopped breeding every horse that carries the dwarf gene - Couldn't this wipe out at least 50 % of our miniature horses?

That is a very scary thought for me anyway. Am I wrong in being concerned here?

I would also like to thank Little King Farm and Little America Farm for helping us ( or at least myself) learn more about dwarfism in miniature horses. Also, thanks to Mary Lou for giving us a place to learn - I think we do need to learn more about our little dwarfs.

 

[Magic]

I think it would be interesting to see how many of these dwarfs were born in the last five yrs. since we have learned more from reading LB..Another thing that would be interesting is if these are AMHA or AMHR horses.. and if AMHR A or B division... If the majority are AMHA .... then

should we be closing the registery..?????

McBunz - I have to admit I am a little confused on your quote above. I am thinking we would be trying to get rid of the bloodline that is producing dwarfs - Not the registry - Am I correct on this?

Lisa, I believe that McBunz was asking if it might be premature to be closing the registry to HARDSHIPPING horses.

 

[MiniMaid]

No we dont breed

:arg!

but i wanna say who would put the horse down because it had one baby that you didn't like.

 

[LisaF.]

Magic...OH..ok..sorry about that McBunz. Magic thank you for telling me what McBunz meant. I didn't understand the post.