Horseehug's poll on dwarfism

[SunQuest]

I have tried and tried to make a poll and am obviously far too computer illiterate. It keeps telling me a poll inolves choices.......... when I thought I HAD put choices so I do not know what I am doing wrong.

So if anyone who knows how would like to create a poll asking

1. How many would NEVER again breed a horse that had produced a dwarf, and

2. How many would choose not to breed the pair again who had produced one...but would continue to breed them to others..........I'd like to see the results.

I'm curious to see if a poll where people could vote "anonymously" would come up with the same answers as the thread did......or not.

Thanks,

Susan O.

I added two more choices as it really isn't just a black and white issue. Hope you find what you are looking for!

 

[horsehug]

Thanks Nila,

Yes I was tyring to add other options also. Not sure why I could not make it work but I appreciate your help

Susan O.

 

[SunQuest]

Thanks Nila,
Yes I was tyring to add other options also. Not sure why I could not make it work but I appreciate your help

Susan O.

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I found that if one hits the "enter" or "return" key once after each option that it will work. If one hits the key twice so that there is a blank line in between each option, then it won't work. It sure makes it hard to read when entering the info into the poll!

 

[nootka]

I voted to retire both, with rare exception.

If one parent were quite obviously to me (I have my own set of visual clues, some agree with others, some don't) a dwarf, and the other were absolutely perfect or as near so as possible, I MIGHT give the "perfect" appearing one another chance with a different mate that were very well proportioned.

Proportions are biggest indicators to me, not always just leg length, it is the bone density to overall size ratio, and the head size, as well as the misplaced "dome" that some refer to as dish. If there are ANY other warning signs, I would avoid the horse like the plague for breeding.

Liz M.

 

[Frankie]

We all believe different.

I am a firm believer it has to do with the cross.

We did have a dwarf last year.

Bred the same mare, with a different stud, and we got this at only a few days old.

The first baby this mare delivered, looked just like this years colt.

If the mare ever were to deliver another dwarf, she would be done. But for now, watching the cross I put on her. She puts babies on the ground with awesome legs.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I voted other. It would depend on the individuals in question as to any future breeding plans.

If either/both were visually not dwarfy in any way and they both had produced a number of good quality 'non dwarfy or questionable foals', I would probably consider breeding either or again - but not together.

On the other hand if there was any question in my mind - the stallion would be gelded and the mare sold as a pet or kept here as non-breeding pet.

 

[Southern_Heart]

I voted (Never again breed a horse that had produced a dwarf.) That’s just the way I feel. This is my opinion on the matter and mine only.

In my heart, I could not do it. Existence is a gamble, tough as it is but, where life is concerned, to perhaps bring forth a dwarf into this world that was not appropriate in the body and could be ill with pain and exist an hour or a day or a few weeks, maybe even 3 years or more on pain killers. I could not intentionally do it to such an animal. These are God’s creatures, not ours to be experimenting with to get the smallest most perfect horse.

I look at it this way. We breed and then we wait for 11 extensive months for our most anticipated foal to be born and then when it is born a dwarf. It’s really heart breaking. To me it would be anyways, to wait all that time, money spent for vet, to make sure the fetus would be a healthy one and then to get a dwarf…? Oh my heart would be crying very loudly!!

I would most likely… as I think about it now…..I would never breed the mare again and have the stallion geld! There are far too many nice stallions out there in the world that have not produced a dwarf. So why on God’s green earth would I even want to chance having a dwarf again much less put my mare in danger of fatality?

Nice stallions do make nice geldings and non propagation mares make good pets!

I feel so blessed at this time, as I have not had the heart break of any of my mares or stallions producing a dwarf. But, I can a sure you that if I ever do…2 horses will be out of my breeding program, just to be on the safe side.

I also am all for people, coming forth and stating that their stallions have produced a dwarf, and how many and with what mares. But that will never in my lifetime happen, as to many people will never admit to it.

I applaud though, all the people that have and do convey.

Sorry that this was so long. But I never declared as to how I really felt on the other thread!

Joyce

 

[Levonsa]

I think it would depend heavily on the animals that I was breeding. I would not breed the pair again, but may breed to other horses. Since dwarfism is likely caused by the interaction of several genes and not a single recessive gene, the chances of another dwarf from different breedings would be small. The exception to this would be if you were in an intense line breeding program which would increase the chances and both should be removed from that program. I would avoid any breedings that I felt would result in an unhealthy foal, whether related to dwarfism or some other problem.

What would you do with any previous get from the same breeding?

 

[littlearab]

I would have to say pull one parent from breeding. I did this the mare had what I and others see as dwarf issues. Bite ect.

But the stallion has none and has produced other foals that are very correct. Long legs and very nice.

But if he ever sires another foal with even small issues he will be gelded. That being said if I could see no dwarf issues in either parent I might bred to agian to other horses, but I'll be honest and say I do not know what I'd do.

I believe no one really does until it happens to them what they would do. Each case must be looked at on it's own.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

I voted I would not breed the pair together again, but if it was only one dwarf that each parent had produced I would use them for breeding to others again.

I do think in some cases if a horse has produced more than 2 dwarves I would not continue to use them for breeding.

 

[ThreeCFarm]

I stick with my answer to not breed either horse again. However, if I had been breeding the same horses for several years and hadn't had any dwarves, then I suddenly had several in one foal crop, I would hold off on retiring anyone from breeding until I took a look to see if I had changed anything in their environment that could have caused it. I wouldn't even rebreed until I had taken a good look around, and consulted with someone knowledgable in the area of environmental issues.

 

[Magic]

I believe no one really does until it happens to them what they would do. Each case must be looked at on it's own.

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I very much agree with this. It's so easy to look at someone else's breeding program and if they suddenly get a dwarf, to say "well, geld the stallion and never breed the mare again". But if it were your OWN horses, you had put immeasurable amounts of money and time into buying them, showing them, advertising them; they previously had gorgeous, winning get-- and then all of a sudden there is a dwarf. What would you do? Would you just take that loss of several thousand dollars (as much as tens of thousands) and throw those horses out? And then have to buy a new stallion?

I very much agree with "never breed those two to each other again" but

I have a very good friend who one day out of the blue, had a dwarf born. This was a pretty severe dwarf (but oh so cute) but she couldn't nurse, her tongue was hanging out of her mouth and she just couldn't manage it, and after a full day of trying to get the foal to be able to eat, my friend had to have the filly put down. I came over to be with her when the vet came, as did another friend, and we all cried.

Now, the thing is, the sire of that dwarf is a multiple-supreme halter winner, and the dam is the daughter of a multiple-supreme halter winner, superb performance horse. Both were awesome horses, but both obviously carried a recessive dwarf gene. My friend has a limited number of horses, all of them based on breeding from one half of this combination, and it is a hugely successful program. Is she supposed to just sell all of her horses as pets and get out of the horses? After having that one dwarf? She wouldn't be able to afford to buy all new horses, and the ones she has are exquisite. Or could she honorably keep breeding, but be extremely careful to whom she breeds her horses TO, and keep producing those gorgeous, athletic, winning horses?

I guess that everyone's opinions differ, and that is fine. I just think that we all might feel somewhat differently if it happens to US, or someone very close to us, and could see that some real assets to the miniature breed could be "thrown out", and some great breeding programs yanked to a stop, if the "all or nothing" stance is taken.....

I also think it would be great if we could have a test for dwarfism. Technology is such that it should be possible, don't you think? Perhaps if we all get together and find a way to make it happen.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I asked this on the other thread but just wondering.. how many dwarves would it take to remove a horse from your program? Would the horses have to throw 2, 4 what is the number?

I am again not being accusatory I am just wondering..

I realize the money thing is an issue and that is the issue that I think will keep research from being done.

To many say my horse won at this it is a nice horse.. it may very well be Sadies sire was a Res National Halter Champion.. I did breed her dam again however.. those doing research and every vet i discussed the issue with felt in this case the issue was soley with the sire. He had several dwarves out of his first foal crop with mares who havent before nor havent since had a dwarf. These mares were spread out all over the country for a majority of there pregnancy. The only link they had was this stallion and his percentage on that first foal crop was over 70 percent dwarves That is way not normal percentages.

If the circumstances had been different and this wasnt something most medical professinals agreed was the stallion (something they also said wasnt always common) I would not breed a dwarf producer again.

I dont know what the answer is however I do know that continuing to pass on the gene just cant be it.

Money and such aside into a program.. well I understand that however.. money put inot a dwarf I understand that one to.

NO HORSE and i mean NO HORSE is ir replaceable to the breed be it a winner of local shows, HOF or National titles I have yet to see a horse with which without .. this breed wouldnt continue

I think the bottom line is no matter what your stance it all comes down to having morals and ethics and being very upfront about what your horse has produced not just the ribbons it has won or the offsping it has had that has done well but . the fact it has produced a dwarf should be made available to all who ask and are interested..No matter what you believe.. breed again or not.. stand behind your beliefs by honesty and integrity and that alone will allow others to make better breeding decisions as maybe one of there own herd threw a dwarf and by knowing the one they are looking at has as well they can opt to not breed them to that particular horse we dont have a test but we have what is in front of us yet many dont even use that so what makes me beleive that as a whole the industry would use any test there was or still keep it a dirty little secret.

the dirty little secret thing is just not ok period in my book

 

[littlearab]

This I fully agree with Lisa.

It should not be a drity little secret. Being up front is the best way to handle it.

I have been sence Hobbit was born.

If we do not bring it into the light how can we even begin to see whats going on??

 

[Magic]

To many say my horse won at this it is a nice horse.. it may very well be Sadies sire was a Res National Halter Champion.. I did breed her dam again however.. those doing research and every vet i discussed the issue with felt in this case the issue was soley with the sire.

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Ok, so couldn't this be the case with MANY other horses? You say that it wasn't YOUR mare's fault that she had a dwarf; well many other people may well feel the same about THEIR horses, don't you think? Their vets may very well be saying the same thing to them.

I know that my friend sold her mare, making it clear to the buyers that she had produced a dwarf, but what about the rest of her horses, surely some of which must be carrying the dwarf gene, since they are all related? None of the others have produced a dwarf (yet), but how does one know without a test?

I once co-owned a stallion, a long time ago, that once we bought him, THEN we found out that he had produced MANY dwarfs.

My partners bred mares to him but I just couldn't. I didn't breed a single mare to him, because with his record I definitely did not want to chance having a dwarf. Perhaps it can be just one horse that causes a dwarf, but if that is the case, then why would one toss BOTH parents out of the gene pool?

I still say we need a TEST!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

No magic i didnt say others vets can not be telling them the same thing I am saying that though if there are several stallions out there throwing 70 percent dwarves that is something we need to really figure out how to stop

I am asking how many is the number for someone to stop breeding those that say they would continue to breed just not the pair what if say the mare threw 2 dwarves would that be enough to take them out of the breeding pool? or is it 5 dwarves.. i hear lots saying not with just one my question is simply how many then?

I know many who are very honest and upfront about dwarves there horses have produced to potential buyers and buyers of there offspring I knwo just as many that wouldnt say a thing even if the horse produced mulitple dwarves

 

[Magic]

Ok, personally, I'd have to say the "magic number" would be two. Why two? Well, just one, could *possibly* be an evironmental thing or a gene mutation, so I'd want to give the horses one more chance. I would NOT breed those horses together again. And if one of the horses were to have a second dwarf, that would be it for sure, no more breeding for them.

I do have to say that in some cases the "magic number" could very well be ONE, for me as well. It really depends on the horse.

 

[dannigirl]

I had a stallion that produced two dwarfy babies. One worse than the other. I bred him to many mares over a period of 8 years and just never used those two mares on him again. One mare did produce a second dwarf with another stallion, so did not breed her again. I figured two strikes and you are out--so to speak. She was an older mare and we lost her a year or so later. Don't know her history prior to coming here as I bought her at auction. She did have 4 very nice babies for us however.

 

[horsehug]

I just wanted to thank everyone who voted in the poll, and also those who shared your thoughts.

Susan O.

 

[starleemay]

This is what I have done. I have a stallion that was born on a well known farm. All the foals that I know about are not dwarves. I have a mare that I have that had 2 normal foals, then when I bred her to this stallion she had a dwarf. The other foals born that year & since have all been normal by this stallion. Now I bred the mare to a different stallion & she again had a normal foal. I will not breed her to the stallion that produced the dwarf.