How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?

[Leeana]

I would support it if it was outlined and stated in a way that could actually be enforced, there would be so many ways for the owners/trainers/handlers to get around this rule, it would have to be writen out clearly and very in depth. There is no sense in making a rule unless it can be fully enforced, the biggest thing with a rule like this would be making it specific so no one (no one!) could get around it. Someone could have there horse tied, taking it out and walking him/her for 1 minute and then retie the horse for another 5 hours and state the horse had been walked and was not tied the full time, just one of many things.

The only time my horses are tied at shows is *maybe* between classes, if its going to be only 20 minutes or so, then i just tie them and do the 'cleanup' work or smudges. I do not think i have tied a horse for more then 35 minutes at a show, and that was with someone standing there making sure he didnt get a hoof hung or something along those lines. Would i leave him tied for 6 or 7 hours, no, would i be able to leave him tied overnight, no ..rediculous. The only time my horses are tied at home is aftering bathing, if im jumping two then i will just tie the other over at the gate while i take the other horse over the patern, then switch them out and taking the other horse over the patern, then switch the jumping patern or heights vice versa.

I know locally, we do our local fair at the end of each year just for fun and set up a big stall display ext. There is one huge haflinger farm that brings about 10-12 horses, he does a big 8 horse draft hitch and then brings a few halter horses on the side. At our fair, we have tie stalls (which are about 5ft'8ft) which most the minis use (we take up a whole isle to ourselves alone) and we use those as mini box stalls and they only cost $2/each. There is no way the fair would allow the haflinger guy to have10-12 boxstalls, so he purchases tie stalls and his horses are tied the whole 7 days (he never takes them out for walks, only time i see them out are when they are performing).

 

[Sandee]

As many others have mentioned, education not regulation! No, I could not support a rule about tying. I also have to do all the work by myself and am forced to tie my horses at different times. I would never leave them for long periods but once a rule is in place there will be those that try to use it against competitors (don't laugh - that would be the least of things that are done!)

 

[justanothercowgirl]

I don't agree with tying a horse for an extended period of time with no option of laying down.
I am QUITE familiar with "tie stalls" (stand stalls, whatever you want to call them) because I have a background with draft horses. Draft horses often are kept in tie stalls, particularly in the midwest and Canada, because of the increased ease in husbandry and bedding conservation.

In a true tie stall, the horse often has a manger with food and water in front of it, and the stall is deeply bedded so the animal can lie down at will. The horse is tied at such a length that the horse can lie down and put it's nose down and rest it's head.

If your biggest concern is that horse's be allowed to lie down perhaps the rule should address just that and not the tying of horses. Tying will be very difficult to enforce and please don't forget there are many shows throughout the year that people show off their trailers and the horses sleep on the trailer overnight and yes, they are tied.

When I'm at a CDE Kody spends most of the day tied to the trailer under supervision on a long enough lead to graze. Would I rather he were out in a paddock somewhere? Sure! But in that case tying him outside in the fresh air is preferable to putting him in a dusty, dark, boring stall where he can't see out. Am I being cruel? I don't think so. Kody prances all the way to the trailer and drags his feet all the way back to the barn. When I haul I don't stop every hour as you do. I don't do that because it is my belief that it is easier on the horse to go for a couple of hours at a stretch than to be interrupted constantly and get their hopes up that it is time to leave the trailer. I base this on studies I have read and my own personal experience with a horse whose welfare and happiness means everything to me. Anyone who knows me knows I would never ask Kody to do anything I wouldn't myself. So am I evil because I make him stand there for two or three hours? I hope not!

I think we have the power to make a change and I agree with you that by tolerating this sort of thing we are sanctioning it. Make a rule but please be careful how you phrase it! Give more power to enforce the rules we have, not just blocking one single way to be cruel. You know they'll just find some way around it- people always do. The good guys are always trying to catch up, chasing after the "bad guys" with law after law until everyone else is too hedged in by rules to move! My local Fair is proof of what happens when you go down that slippery slope and it isn't pretty.

I just don't want to see the same thing happen to AMHR/A while the horses still suffer in more and more creative and hard-to-prove ways.

Leia

I am the same as Leia, I don't stop every hour when I am trailer my horses, they do get their hopes up that they are getting off the trailer and my one gelding in fact gets downright annoyed. When I bring him to nationals he gets a full boxstall in my trailer and although he is tied he can lay down and he trailers well like that, different things work for different people. He has access to hay and water and he gets his grain and beet pulp at his regular feed times and this works for me and for him.

Would I leave him tied for the entire duration of Nationals without the option to lie down, no way! But I do have to muzzle him because he does eat bedding. If I had to tie him I would leave him the option of lying down, with food and water in front of him and bedding pushed back and someone suggested and I sleep in my tack stall. I don't like the idea of being legeslated to death by our association but please be very thoughtful in your wording here as I for one, do show off my trailer at some shows throughout the year and need to tie my horses at those shows. I am not denying them the comfort of lying down at night however.

Pam

 

[Boinky]

I agree with pam and am in the same boat as her sometimes needing to tie at the shows even overnight (showing from trailer or even sometimes if i'm doubling up in stalls). I wouldn't be able to afford to show if i had to buy a stall of each horse. they would probably lose me as a paying customer. I think the rule should maybe be how LONG the rope is. Ie. "long enough for the horse to be able to reach the floor and lie down". I personally would think MOST horses are exercised enough at show's for that not to be a concern. Even at nationals i think many horses get worked some..but maybe for a week or two long show perhaps it may be a concern?..i don't know about you but mine get out of their stalls just to compete many times a day and if they don't i try to make an effort to get each out to move around a bit and see the sights. I have no problems whatsoever leaving my horses standing tied. that is part of their training.. a well trained horse should know how to stand tied for hours without getting itself into trouble..if it can't it really needs to learn! Even our big horse show's around here are mostly showing from your trailer. I've always felt it was important for my horses to tie very well and stand for a very long time because some of those show's my horses are litterally tied all day long except when i'm showing them or doing something with them.

As for hauling Many of our show's are a minimum of 10 hours and nationals is over 30hours for us. We only stop for gas, food, and we offer them water each time we stop for gas. I have read studies as well that say your better off to drive straight through and let them rest on the other end than to stop for an hour or two. If you are going to stop you need to stop say overnight to really let them rest. We've hauled horses all over the country and haven't had any problems not to mention many times these horses are completely new and unknown and not on our scheduals ect..even they have never had a problem.

 

[ClickMini]

I think it would be very easy to enforce a rule proposal where horses cannot be tied unattended between the hours of one hour past the last class and two hours prior to the first class. That wouldn't even mean that you couldn't tie in the middle of the night, but you WOULD have to be there. For example if you are clipping, razoring, etc. You would just have to be with your horse. Good suggestion, Andrea.

Leia, what you do with Kody isn't even remotely the same as the situation at Nationals.

 

[Millstone Farm]

For those horses who devour shavings, there are other bedding options -- rice hulls and recycled paper come to mind.

 

[wildoak]

I think somewhere to START with this rule, if you wanted to go ahead with it Skanzler, would be that no horses could be tied one hour after the last class of the day had ended, and tying could resume two hours before the first class of the day is scheduled to begin.

I have my doubts that a rule on tying would pass, but this would be a logical and sensible approach to it. Putting a time limit on tying is simply not enforceable, as many have said.

Before we get too carried away with tying them long enough to lay down, remember there are dangers with tying long. If I tie, I'm going to tie short enough that my horse won't get his legs tangled up in the rope. I don't crank heads up, I leave access to water and maybe a hay bag, but I don't want to find my horse hung up in a lead shank. I've seen it happen, with not good results.

I guess my point is that while you are right that some things simply are not relative, they are WRONG, the attempt to write a specific rule for each and every one of them can cause more problems than it solves. I agree with whomever said to EDUCATE, not legislate

Great post, Leia, I so agree.

Jan

 

[skanzler]

This topic has really gotten alot of people thinking and that is a good thing. I appreciate everyones input. This is what I wanted when I first posted on this topic. I knew that not everyone would agree on this. And the input that I am getting is what I need to be able to write a proposal that will have very few loop holes or be too one sided. It will give us the ability to answer those questions that are coming up in this topic and to have the answers to those objections that may be brought up. The 'What if's". There is no perfect rule in our rule book. All of them are open to interpretation, but I feel that many of the rules are for the benefit of all people and thier horses.

I am not trying to stop the tying of all horses for short periods of time, nor legislate whether you can show from your trailer or leave your horse tied in the cross ties/grooming stall while you walk out to get another horse or a grooming supply. This is for those horses that are forced to stand tied during the duration of a Nationals type show situation. One that runs over a normal three day show. No I don't feel horses should be left tied for even a three day show 24/7. But even worse is the week long show....

Those of you that haul to your local shows and show from your trailer are doing just what you need to. There is nothing wrong with this scenerio, as I am sure you don't leave your horse tied there while you leave the groundsand go to dinner and then to the hotel for a good nights sleep. I am sure your horses are supervised.

If you need to share a stall at a show, the cost of a divider is not that much and there are many people that make these types of dividers. There are always solutions to any problem if thought out well.

As for hauling and stop times, my bladder is smaller than most and I do stop about every hour. My husband hates it..... he is one of those "lets just get there". I do not haul straight through to Nationals. It is a 2 1/2 day trip with 12 - 15 hour days on the road. And yes there are times that we will travel for more than an hour if all is going well and I don't bu a 40 oz soda........ I do run with camera's so I always know what is going on in the trailer.

I know the statement was made Educate don't legislate. Well education is great, if the person wants to or needs to learn. But unfortunately, in this instance, he knows better and does not do this out of ignorance.

Yes many may not know any better. Or may not, as some have stated felt they had an option, bedding eater, aggresive stall buddy. But many have also offered educational remedies to these types of problems.

Keep the ideas coming, either for or against this possible proposal.

 

[littlearab]

I'm no longer a AMHR member, so I guess I really have no place in this .But I must add that when I was member I did show a little and at the shows I was at I not only saw horse tied "way too short, but with thier heads up. With heavy on blankets on in the summer heat.( I can see one light sheet but winter blankets(

When I asked one person why I was told." They do not let them eat or drink until after they are done showing. The blankets keep thier coats short.. and also work as a sweat..

I guess starving, dehirated horse win.... after the class they put one flake in the stall in with 4 horses..... a fight took place and one little filly went hungry.. But boy was she nice a TRIM.

My husbund who does not show or even really like horses said"If I ever see you do that to a horse I'll shot if for it own's sake..Thats sick... to do to any animal. "

As far as the idea that the horses are eating the shaving.. I have a real hard time beliveing a horse would eat wood shaving if it had HAY to eat. FEED your horses..... GEE

If I were a AMHR member I would say it's about time something is done.

Before everyone flames me.

All I can say is you have all seen this and you all know it goes on. Some of even do it... but nothing will happen to change it as the BIG boys do it and no one will cross them..

Sad really what happens to our beloved horses once money gets involved isn't it.

 

[nootka]

The problem with educate, not legislate, sadly, is that when we are at these shows, especially one that has a high influx of general public, they see this treatment and if one goes to the show office to complain, nothing is done.

I think in the instance of someone who doesn't know any better, education is always the answer, but in most cases, this is simply done by someone who is too cheap or lazy to use alternate methods.

I have NO problem with someone using tying as a the lesser of evils, but in many cases, I know this is not true, and IMO, to use tying as in no access to food, water, or relief to lie down, is merely laziness or cheapness on the part of the handler/owner/shower.

We do have the option of to tie or not to tie, but my feeling is that when we endeavor to tie, we need to take into consideration all aspects, and not just do it because it's easier.

My horses do stand tied to dry from baths/in between clip jobs and after grooming/before classes. In the case of baths, sometimes it takes several hours to dry, when the coat is long, and the weather is not good for drying. Even then, with a three-hour dry job, I will go out and take them out, put them in their stall to let them graze or drink, and walk them around for relief. If I have to, I will hasten the drying with a blower.

If I had too many horses for one person to handle, that individual care would be too much.

There just needs to be a recourse when the tying is used to the point of cruelty, in the short version of all of this. There also needs to be recourse for those that are tying as the lesser of evils, to protect their horse or reasonably manage them at the show.

Liz

 

[Yaddax3]

Just wondering ...

Isn't this tie-down issue broadly covered in the Official ASPC/AMHR Rulebook under General Rules, Part 8 -- Violations, Section E-5, which states:

5. Cruelty or inhumane treatment of an animal,

whether or not registered with the Corporation, in

the show ring, stable area or show grounds will not

be tolerated by the Corporation, and the offender

may be barred from the show grounds for the

duration of the show. It is the duty of the Show

Steward to investigate alleged acts of cruelty or

inhumane treatment. When practical, a veterinarian

will inspect the animal(s) in question and submit a

written report to the Steward. In the event a

veterinarian is not available, the Steward and a

Judge will inspect the animal and submit a written

report to the Corporation. Only those instances of

alleged abuse that are reported to the Corporation

by a Steward in writing within five days of the

completion of the Show will be referred to the

Hearing Committee for consideration.

I think you risk opening a Pandora's Box if you start micro-applying rules. But perhaps that's just me.

 

[daisy mae]

Yaddax, THANKYOU! That is exactly what I think as well and could not have said it better.

I truly get very tired of everyone jumping on the "trainers are evil" bandwagon when something like this comes up. I feel that the majority of us, including trainers, treat our horses very humanely and kind, and truly care for them as an individual animal. We do not look at them as mere commodity. I also feel that this person, who by the way is not a professional trainer, although, I do not agree with his method of stalling horses, feels he is choosing the necessary way to protect his stock. Who is going to take the fall when one morning he walks into the barn and one of them has a broken neck hanging dead from his rope? All of a sudden it is those horrible mini people (and usually the word trainer is inserted here) that will go to any length to win.

How can we possibly write a rule to stop an action that in most people's minds should fall under the statement in the premium books as well as the rule book that no abuse or neglect will be tolerated.

Are we going to get to the point that we need a rule that if the temperature is over 80 degrees that all blankets need to be stripped off horses? Or that stalls must have at least X bags of shavings in each stall? The list could go on and on. What I am getting at, we have a blanket rule about caring properly for our horse. If we start making specific rules then are we to consider that as long as it is not in print that it is allowed and tolerated? I do not think there is a specific rule about whipping a horse, or kicking a horse in the gut, or quicking a horse to make it measure in and then treating it so they don’t limp. So are all these things permissible? Most of us consider these things to be common sense and not proper treatment at least I don’t think they are, but I am trying to make a point. At what point does an action fall under the blanket statement "No abuse will be tolerated"???

 

[maestoso]

I agree with both Yaddax and daisymae. Once you start to micro manage your asking for trouble. Besides, no matter how many rules you make, someone will break one and won't get punishment for it and someone will complain about it. And if that doesn't happen, another unique situation that doesn't yet have a rule will come up, and someone will complain and start a petition.

Personally, I want to go to shows and enjoy myself, and focus on me and my horses, I don't want to be a hall monitor, or "isle" monitor as the case may be. I trust the fact that most people use good judgment and common sense, and if I come across something that doesn't look right, I will bring the concern to show management, and that is where my duty ends, and the management duty starts.

Many of you say that management doesn't crack down on this stuff.... well if this is really the case, do you really think they will crack down on another rule? Maybe the issue is management taking the responsibility to hold exhibitors accountable, not that we need more specific micro rules.

 

[wildoak]

As far as the idea that the horses are eating the shaving.. I have a real hard time beliveing a horse would eat wood shaving if it had HAY to eat. FEED your horses..... GEE

Really a separate issue, but yes there are horses who eat shavings even when they are fed well. I've had some, and it's usually at shows and not at home, an anxiety response I imagine, or "new" shavings that taste different.

Many of you say that management doesn't crack down on this stuff.... well if this is really the case, do you really think they will crack down on another rule? Maybe the issue is management taking the responsibility to hold exhibitors accountable, not that we need more specific micro rules.

'Nuf said.

Jan

 

[skanzler]

I truly get very tired of everyone jumping on the "trainers are evil" bandwagon when something like this comes up. I feel that the majority of us, including trainers, treat our horses very humanely and kind, and truly care for them as an individual animal. We do not look at them as mere commodity. I also feel that this person, who by the way is not a professional trainer, although, I do not agree with his method of stalling horses, feels he is choosing the necessary way to protect his stock. Who is going to take the fall when one morning he walks into the barn and one of them has a broken neck hanging dead from his rope? All of a sudden it is those horrible mini people (and usually the word trainer is inserted here) that will go to any length to win.

Ok, not sure where this came from.... For one thing I am a trainer and I do not feel that all trainers are evil. Exactly the opposite. I feel that most trainers feel a strong resposibility for each horse placed in thier care. And we all have to answer to our clients..... And if the client allows the trainer to abuse their horses then the owner needs to take a better look at themselves as owners.

And as for this particular individual.. he is not a trainer. He is an owner/breeder. And treats his horses inhumanely. Not sure how he is "protecting his stock".

How can we possibly write a rule to stop an action that in most people's minds should fall under the statement in the premium books as well as the rule book that no abuse or neglect will be tolerated.

As for this statement....I did report it to the management and they stated as long as the horse had access to food and water there was nothing in the rule book that stated he couldn't do it. Well, I am sorry I dont' agree. These horses might have access to food and water, but NONE of them could lye down and rest. That in itself is abuse. How would YOU like to stand 24 hours a day tied to a wall? Put yourself in your horses situation. It is all good and well to say "they are probably used to it" does that make it safe? NO

Personally, I want to go to shows and enjoy myself, and focus on me and my horses, I don't want to be a hall monitor, or "isle" monitor as the case may be. I trust the fact that most people use good judgment and common sense, and if I come across something that doesn't look right, I will bring the concern to show management, and that is where my duty ends, and the management duty starts.

Gee don't we all. And Gee doesn't that sound like todays moto "me, myself and I". Does that mean that we will turn a blind eye to those things that we feel might infringe on our ability to enjoy showing at the risk of the horses welfare? And Matt your age is definitely shining through on this one.... you hopefully will learn some wisdom and good sense as you get older and things come into your life that are not solved so easily as to say "well I told someone about it so therefore my responsibilty ends there". And when the horse IS found at the end of his rope with a broken neck, I guess you can still go on and worry about how much fun you had at the show, because all you had to do was focus on yourself.....

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but my goodness how long will we all just walk by these things that are so obviously abuse and cruelty to horses...... I have seen it. I have done it. And no I don't claim to know the right answer, but I will no longer just walk by and say it doesn't affect me so therefore I will just keep walking....

 

[gvpalominominis]

Wow... yeah... this is a tough one. It's amazing what even governmental agencies determine as "inhumane". I personally agree that it is not humane to short tie a horse through a whole show enabling it from lying down... just to keep them clean... or for whatever human reasoning there was. Its bad enough that I also saw horses tied outside their stalls (unattended) for hours on end... either "drying" from a bath (although dried hours ago), harnessed (usually all but the bridle) waiting for a class... typically standing in pee and poop on the cement and of course not a responsible human in site. Common sense just doesn't seem to apply there.

I've had to tie aged horses inside their bedded stalls (unattended) for short times in between Liberty horses or waiting for classes... but never 24-7 or longer than absolutely needed.... I just personally couldn't do that. Heck.. I've had to retouch or re-bathe those white legs and tails..(and I've had a lot of them) many times... swearing that's it... no more white! At least tied in their stall they have something to soak up urine, aren't startled or attacked by passing horses and safe from running away if they got loose or 'accidentally' untied. I simply value my horses more than that. Parents claiming their underage child(ren) was responsible is no excuse either.

I think the person with the idea about the prohibiting after hours... may be on to something with the addition of... "without supervision"... as many people (myself included), do after hours grooming that could be view inappropriate by some extremist passer byers (like Annette's experience avoiding a fight). The broad spectrum "Inhumane" quote from the rules is ambiguous and isn't direct enough to encourage reporting the unacceptable short tieing practice, or they probably would have taken action when it was reported. I would hope that it wasn't just because it was an influential trainer doing it. But I've run up against some of that 'Good Ole Boys' AMHR non published policies myself.

So what if someone gets reported by a passer byer and its a false alarm or ends up explainable or just circumstance... to me that falls under 'Better to be safe than sorry'. Its reported, looked into and either reprimanding action is taken or its dismissed. Either way its taken care of and/or addressed.

I'd be happy to help word a proposal.

 

[skanzler]

Thank you GV. You can PM with your suggestions....

 

[Lewella]

Many of you say that management doesn't crack down on this stuff.... well if this is really the case, do you really think they will crack down on another rule? Maybe the issue is management taking the responsibility to hold exhibitors accountable, not that we need more specific micro rules.

Okay, not picking on Matt here...

Over and over in this thread I've seen the terms "show management" and "management" used in a manner that implies that it is the show managements job to interpret enforce the rules. It is the Steward's job to interpret and enforce the rules at an AMHR show.

These are the rules that apply to show managers:

Part 6 – Show Management

A. Show Managers, exclusive of exhibitions and State or County Fair managers, are required to be a current

member of the ASPC/AMHR during any given calendar year in which they serve as a manager of a sanctioned ASPC/AMHR show.

B. For the purpose of evaluating date applications, the office will consider competition management to be the party or parties financially responsible for the show.

C. Horses owned by show management may be shown by someone else. This may be a family member.

Part 15 – Show Management Responsibilities

A. Show management must have a current ASPC/AMHR rulebook available at the show, at all times. All

approved ASPC/AMHR rules are to be observed by everyone connected in any way with exhibiting,

setting up, and managing of approved shows, stewarding, or judging of ASPC/AMHR registered

animals.

B. Both the Show Manager and the show secretary should be in the show office a minimum of one hour

before the show starting time.

C. Show management is required to furnish all show officials with identification so they can be easily

identified. Show personnel should be knowledgeable of ASPC/AMHR rules and be efficient in their

application.

D. It is the duty of show management to make sure that all ponies/horses showing have been measured, or

hold a current measurement card, and can show proof of registration with ASPC/AMHR before they release

the animal’s back number. No pony/horse is allowed to show without a show number. Exception: For show

purposes all foals (Shetland and Miniature) of the current year must be registered by July 1st of that year.

Prior to July 1st, foals can show with proof of application pending with the ASPC/AMHR office prior to the show. For foals only, the following items are required for proof of application: copy of application of registration, copy of work order, copy of check (payment), and United States Postal Service Certified Mail Return receipt marked “foal registration.”

E. Gelding status must be on the ASPC/AMHR registration paper for the animal to be shown in a gelding class.

F. Show management must announce the time and place for ASPC/AMHR official measuring.

G. Show management is responsible for furnishing the Steward with a witness (preferably a member of the

Horse Show Committee or the organization sponsoring the show) for the measuring of all ponies/horses requiring measurements. Management will provide a table and chairs at the measuring area.

H. Show management is responsible for furnishing a level concrete surface or paved surface for the Steward to measure all animals requiring measurement. If the aforementioned is not available, it is the responsibility of the show management to furnish a 4’ x 8’ sheet of ½” or thicker plywood, placed directly on level ground, as an alternative measuring surface. In no way should the plywood be placed on a frame or raised off the ground.

I. Emergency numbers for veterinarian, blacksmith and emergency medical staff must be posted outside the

show office for exhibitors. Contact should be made in advance to arrange for them to be on call.

J. All performance patterns and course designs must be posted outside the show office not less than (2) hours prior to the class.

K. Show management shall designate a suitable, convenient area in which the Judge may rest between

classes, so located as to be free from disturbance by exhibitors and/or spectators.

L. Show management is responsible for keeping the area along the inside of the show ring rail clear and free of items such as a secretary/announcer table, ribbon table, award table, storage of obstacles or jump

equipment, etc.

M. Show management must be available to the exhibitors for a minimum of one hour after completion of the last class of the show session in the show schedule to receive and adjudicate any protest filed.

N. Show management is required to include a Judge’s evaluation form in each exhibitors packet.

O. Any Show Manager who violates or knowingly permits violations of the Rules of the Corporation at

any event sanctioned by the Corporation is subject to disciplinary action. No Show Manager may act in any

official capacity such as Judge or Steward at any event sanctioned by the Corporation at which they are acting in the capacity of Show Manager. Show managers are not agents of the Corporation, and unless specifically granted authority, they shall have no authority to bind the Corporation.

P. It shall be the sole responsibility of the Show Manager to address issues of misconduct or disorderly behavior on the part of exhibitors, including the use of alcoholic beverages or illegal substances.

 

[Yaddax3]

And Matt your age is definitely shining through on this one.... you hopefully will learn some wisdom and good sense as you get older and things come into your life that are not solved so easily as to say "well I told someone about it so therefore my responsibilty ends there". And when the horse IS found at the end of his rope with a broken neck, I guess you can still go on and worry about how much fun you had at the show, because all you had to do was focus on yourself.....Sorry if that sounds harsh, but my goodness how long will we all just walk by these things that are so obviously abuse and cruelty to horses

I respect and somewhat admire skanzler's passion for this issue. We should all be passionate about things that offend us.

However ...

Skanzler -- and I assume this is Syndi -- appears bothered when someone does not fall in lockstep with her view. The attack on Matt's age shows an unwillingness to accept someone else's viewpoint and an attempt to minimalize it because of youthfulness. Apparently, there's only one soapbox and there's no room for other thoughts to be heard.

While I agree inhumane treatment of animals should never be tolerated, I am not convinced you can craft a rule that covers every possible scenario involving tying a horse. As I mentioned earlier, beware of the Pandora's Box, or in this case, Pandora's Box Stall.

I think the AMHR/ASPC rule related to Violations covers the issue of unacceptable treatment. (I have reported abuse to show stewards when I have seen it. The most glaring case involved an idiot whipping a mini outside the ring; in this woman's twisted view whipping would get him keyed up for a jumping class.)

Also, I'm in my 50s. And I freely admit I lack wisdom and good sense on many issues, but at least I'm open-minded enough to allow for others to have a view that differs from mine.

Anyway, skanzler, good luck crafting your rule. I will be at the Convention next fall and look forward to hearing how you have attempted to address every angle and keep a lid on Pandora's Box Stall.

One last thing for skanzler: Did you contact the police or ASPCA or local animal shelter about the alleged abuse you witnessed that started this thread? If you didn't, then I wonder if you did enough at the time.

Don't feel bad, though, if you didn't contact anyone other than show management. To someone in their 50s, you're still young so hopefully, just as you advised Matt, you will learn some wisdom and good sense as you get older.

 

[ruffian]

What the heck, I'm in my "50's" so I guess I'll jump in here too.

Unless you were standing outside the stall 24/7, you cannot prove the horse was tied there the entire time. And if the horse had access to food and water, he's probably not too upset by being tied. As for having to stand in pee and poop - this doesn't seem to bother most horses. I know of several who actually enjoy rolling in manure, usually right after a bath!

It isn't abuse if the horse is standing relaxed and comfortable. Most of my horses never lay down at any time. In fact it's so unusual that if I see some of my horses laying down, I go make sure they're OK.

Let's not try to micromanage a problem that may or may not exist.