How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?

[skanzler]

And Matt your age is definitely shining through on this one.... you hopefully will learn some wisdom and good sense as you get older and things come into your life that are not solved so easily as to say "well I told someone about it so therefore my responsibilty ends there". And when the horse IS found at the end of his rope with a broken neck, I guess you can still go on and worry about how much fun you had at the show, because all you had to do was focus on yourself.....Sorry if that sounds harsh, but my goodness how long will we all just walk by these things that are so obviously abuse and cruelty to horses

I respect and somewhat admire skanzler's passion for this issue. We should all be passionate about things that offend us.

However ...

Skanzler -- and I assume this is Syndi -- appears bothered when someone does not fall in lockstep with her view. The attack on Matt's age shows an unwillingness to accept someone else's viewpoint and an attempt to minimalize it because of youthfulness. Apparently, there's only one soapbox and there's no room for other thoughts to be heard.

Yaddax3

I am not bothered by people having thier own opinions, but what I do have issue with are those that still do not get the idea behind the proposal. This is not about personal space or how this makes others feel. It is about bettering the treatment of the horses in our care. You can have your opinion and that is what I have asked for on this thread. But staying within the boundries of what is being asked. What I have continued to bring up is, we need to come up with a proposal that does not infringe upon peoples general rights to show thier horses according the the rules set forth by the Association and still take into consideration the welfare of the horse put into our care whether it be ones we own or ones that have been placed in our care by our clients.

While I agree inhumane treatment of animals should never be tolerated, I am not convinced you can craft a rule that covers every possible scenario involving tying a horse. As I mentioned earlier, beware of the Pandora's Box, or in this case, Pandora's Box Stall.

That is why I am asking the questions I am asking and coming up with new questions. If I can get enough feedback here then hopefully those that want to help get this done can move forward in a positive way. And when it comes time to present this at Convention we will be able to support it even when people stand up and try to find holes in it.....

I think the AMHR/ASPC rule related to Violations covers the issue of unacceptable treatment. (I have reported abuse to show stewards when I have seen it. The most glaring case involved an idiot whipping a mini outside the ring; in this woman's twisted view whipping would get him keyed up for a jumping class.)

Also, I'm in my 50s. And I freely admit I lack wisdom and good sense on many issues, but at least I'm open-minded enough to allow for others to have a view that differs from mine.

And as I stated earlier, I do not have all the answers. But I am willing to step up and see what can be done to better the conditions in which our horses are sometimes placed for the benefit of humans.

Anyway, skanzler, good luck crafting your rule. I will be at the Convention next fall and look forward to hearing how you have attempted to address every angle and keep a lid on Pandora's Box Stall.

And Yaddax3, I hope to see you there and not disappoint you. Nobody said this would be easy. Not everything in life is.

One last thing for skanzler: Did you contact the police or ASPCA or local animal shelter about the alleged abuse you witnessed that started this thread? If you didn't, then I wonder if you did enough at the time.

No and again, as I said. I was one that used to just walk by and say it does not involve me...... You seem to only pick out certain things I wrote and ignore others.

Don't feel bad, though, if you didn't contact anyone other than show management. To someone in their 50s, you're still young so hopefully, just as you advised Matt, you will learn some wisdom and good sense as you get older.

And for your information, I am not 50 yet, but look forward to reaching that milestone.....You will find that I am the last to say I have learned everything life offers......

See you at convention. It would have been nice if you could have at least given some constructive ideas on how we could better our horses lives.....

 

[Minimor]

It is all good and well to say "they are probably used to it" does that make it safe? NO

Before you take any proposal to the Convention, I suggest that you need to decide exactly what you are trying to accomplish with this. Are you trying to ensure that all horses on show grounds are treated humanely--they have water, feed, and the ability to lie down and rest, no one is inflicting pain on them--that is what I thought this proposal is about.

But then you come out with the sentence above, and IMO that changes the entire intent. You don't just want to ensure humane treatment, you want to legislate safety. Apparently you had a horse hang itself when tied, so now you don't want anyone to tie their horses at all. But, you're not looking at the big picture. Tying isn't the only unsafe evil in the horse world. (And no, I'm not actually defending tying, I rarely tie my horses regardless of whether they're at home, or at a show, or when we're out for a trail ride/drive & stop for lunch...) A halter & muzzle to prevent a horse from eating his bedding? I can name a number of people who have lost horses to halters--they hung themselves on something no one would have ever imagined a horse could hook his halter on. If you want them to be safe you won't allow them to wear halters or muzzles in the stall. Trailering...very unsafe. I can name you a number of people who have lost horses to trailering accidents--to keep them safe, horses cannot be trailered; they must stay at home. So much for showing!

Seriously, I'm not against your rule change proposal, but I do think that in order to have it succeed you need to focus on the exact goal you have on mind, whether it's care or safety.

 

[skanzler]

Ok Minimor, point taken on "that" specific sentence. But again, the original post subject line is unsafe, inhumane stalling procedures at shows.

And it was brought up at one point in the topic "that horse are probably stalled that way at home and are probably used to this". My comment on this was "that doesn't make it right". I don't feel that tying your horses overnight, unattended is safe or humane,. Especially over several days.

And again, this is what this thread is all about. Giving me input from all points so that I can hopefully present a proposal that will work for the horses and not hurt the innocents. That will be able to be supported and that we will be able to answer those concerns that will be presented at Convention and be able to give constructive alternative to meet those concerns.

 

[maestoso]

Skanzler, I always sigh a bit when someone pulls the "your young and therefor naive and inexperienced" card, because as passionate as I am about defending such a ridiculous remark, there is no point, because someone with your attitude wouldn't hear it anyway. You don't know who I am or what I've experienced in life and therefor you are not in any position to decide that my comments must be symbolic of my age or lack of experience. If you would read this thread you'd see that several people twice my age see this issue similar to the way I view it. I have no respect for people that think that their opinions are more worthy just because they have lived for 50 or 60 or whatever years longer then someone else.

I would suggest you have a few real conversations with someone in their early twenties who has work and school and other such responsibilities. While we never had to walk to school in a blizzard up hill both ways barefoot, we have certainly had our share of "real world" experiences and if you are willing to actually listen you might find that this generation has some pretty intelligent views on things.

I will probably get flamed for this(have at it!) and this is WAY off topic, but in SOME ways, I think my generation is much more in tune to what is going on and what is the "real world" than anyone twice our age. We are dealing with issues that you won't be around to experience the consequences of.

Sorry to digress so much, it just really erks me when someone an older person devalues the opinionof a younger, simply because they are younger. If you think my opinion is wrong, find something else to blame it on, blaming it on age is just ridiculous.

 

[susanne]

Syndi, just to warn you, if a frumpy, middle-aged woman comes up to you at a NW show and gives you a hug, you can say, "Hi, susanne!"

Whatever the difficulties of your rule proposal, I'm so glad that you are one who cannot just "walk away." Thank you for caring.

You, too, Erica! Just as I was pondering how completely out of place I am in the show world. you came in with a voice of reason.

To some of the rest I have to ask, how can voicing one's opinion and then defending it be interpreted as putting down or insulting those who disagree? And yes, this works both ways...

BTW Matt, if young and callow are the worst words people use to describe you, be thankful. (Although it may just be that they/ve blocked you...)

PS...Could someone PM me with the name of the breeder/exhibitor who did this? As much as I support Syndi's proposed rule, we can also stand up for what we feel by not purchasing from this person.

 

[justanothercowgirl]

It is all good and well to say "they are probably used to it" does that make it safe? NO

Before you take any proposal to the Convention, I suggest that you need to decide exactly what you are trying to accomplish with this. Are you trying to ensure that all horses on show grounds are treated humanely--they have water, feed, and the ability to lie down and rest, no one is inflicting pain on them--that is what I thought this proposal is about.

But then you come out with the sentence above, and IMO that changes the entire intent. You don't just want to ensure humane treatment, you want to legislate safety. Apparently you had a horse hang itself when tied, so now you don't want anyone to tie their horses at all. But, you're not looking at the big picture. Tying isn't the only unsafe evil in the horse world. (And no, I'm not actually defending tying, I rarely tie my horses regardless of whether they're at home, or at a show, or when we're out for a trail ride/drive & stop for lunch...) A halter & muzzle to prevent a horse from eating his bedding? I can name a number of people who have lost horses to halters--they hung themselves on something no one would have ever imagined a horse could hook his halter on. If you want them to be safe you won't allow them to wear halters or muzzles in the stall. Trailering...very unsafe. I can name you a number of people who have lost horses to trailering accidents--to keep them safe, horses cannot be trailered; they must stay at home. So much for showing!

exactly the point I tried to make yesterday which basically went ignored.

I understand your concerns over horses not being able to rest but you can't legislate IF people can tie their horses or not. And to be honest I would fight you on that at convention. Giving them enought length to lie down I can understand, food and water, definately but why should you be able to legislate when and how long my horse is tied if he can eat, drink and lie down?????? And for the record NO I don't tie my horse for the entire length of Nationals. However.....if we legislate this then what is next? Someone else decides they think it is unsafe/inhumane to leave halters and muzzles on? So then we legislate that?

As for enforcing this....it is the show stewards resposibility for enforcing this...so when do they get to sleep? you want a rule that after a certain hour a horse can't be tied? So stewards have to be on call all night, or hang around the barns all night checking to make sure all horses are untied before they leave? It is a late night as it is at nationals without them having to stick around for another hour or two to make sure there are no tied horses left unattended.

Syndi, I am honestly in agreement with you, horses need to be able to lie down, eat and drink but beyond that...you are forcing your personal views on to others, JMHO....

 

[skanzler]

I understand your concerns over horses not being able to rest but you can't legislate IF people can tie their horses or not. And to be honest I would fight you on that at convention. Giving them enought length to lie down I can understand, food and water, definately but why should you be able to legislate when and how long my horse is tied if he can eat, drink and lie down?????? And for the record NO I don't tie my horse for the entire length of Nationals.

Exactly "my" point. I am NOT legislating anything at this point. I am asking for constructive ideas and opinions. So that I and others that are wanting this proposal to go to Convention can come up with a reasonable rule that governs the welfare of our animals. With infringing on peoples right to show thier horses. Everyone keeps coming back to "their rights" what about the horse's?

And I expect people to be there to object to or question this proposal. It is human nature not to want change and to become defensive of our "rights"......

As for enforcing this....it is the show stewards resposibility for enforcing this...so when do they get to sleep? you want a rule that after a certain hour a horse can't be tied? So stewards have to be on call all night, or hang around the barns all night checking to make sure all horses are untied before they leave? It is a late night as it is at nationals without them having to stick around for another hour or two to make sure there are no tied horses left unattended.

I understand it is the show stewards job. But we are not giving them enough power behind the rules we have in place to enforce this. It is too general. I guess we all need to step up and become involved instead of walking by and thinking it is "not our problem, it's not my horse that's being done to". Well that mentallity just doesn't seem right to me. And if you don't want to be one of those people, fine. I am sure there are others that would be willing to take one last walk around the barn. I know I am usually there late at night and if I see a horse in distress I won't ignore it. And yes, I guess I expect the show stewards to do the job they are hired for. It probably would never come to having to call one back to take care of a problem, but don't tell me that if you were at a show late taking care of that last horse in you barn and saw someone beating their horse or seeing a horse in obvious distress that you wouldn't call someone?

you are forcing your personal views on to others

Not even sure what this comment was for.... I am just asking a question of people and wondering if others felt the same way. I have never once in this thread said everyone must think as I do or MUST support this. If you are opposed to it then come to convention and vote it down. But at this point it is still in our heads and not on paper......

 

[wildoak]

in SOME ways, I think my generation is much more in tune to what is going on and what is the "real world" than anyone twice our age.

From someone on the way "over the hill" LOL, every generation feels this way....and should. Communication between generations is what makes us wise, and keeps us a bit on our toes!

Jan

 

[justanothercowgirl]

Syndi, I would not turn a blind eye to a horse being beaten and I am not walking away from this issue either, I am simply pointing out to you that while you may feel that tying a horse is unsafe it may not be inhumane if they can lie down and have access to food and water. Which is what I meant by my comment that "you may be forcing your personal views on others". Which I believe Minimor tried to point out to you as well...safety vs. humane treatment...two different things here. Minimor, pardon me if I have misunderstood your intent...

Minimor said...

You don't just want to ensure humane treatment, you want to legislate safety. Apparently you had a horse hang itself when tied, so now you don't want anyone to tie their horses at all. But, you're not looking at the big picture. Tying isn't the only unsafe evil in the horse world. (And no, I'm not actually defending tying, I rarely tie my horses regardless of whether they're at home, or at a show, or when we're out for a trail ride/drive & stop for lunch...) A halter & muzzle to prevent a horse from eating his bedding? I can name a number of people who have lost horses to halters--they hung themselves on something no one would have ever imagined a horse could hook his halter on. If you want them to be safe you won't allow them to wear halters or muzzles in the stall. Trailering...very unsafe. I can name you a number of people who have lost horses to trailering accidents--to keep them safe, horses cannot be trailered; they must stay at home. So much for showing!

Just because I am saying that I don't quite see things YOUR way does not mean I don't care about the humane treatment of animals and please don't imply that I don't. I am NOT opposed to you putting a stop to horses having to dangle for the duration of Nationals and not be able to lie down, I think that is ridiculous but you can't seem to get past the fact that there is any way around this other than untying them because that is what YOU would do. Lengthening their lead would be humane....end of problem. I say all of this with the UTMOST respect for you Syndi that you have stepped and are trying to fix this issue and I DO mean that most sincerely.

Pam

 

[skanzler]

Pam, I have taken everything people have said as a positive. I think the written word can get out of context when there is no tone inflection. If you get what I mean.

I can also see a way for a horse to get tangled in long leads....I know when owning horses they can get hurt in a padded room, but actually setting them up for disaster is just not a good idea. I know that there are seasoned horses that can be tied on a long line and never get tangled and when they do they just stand there and wait to be rescued.

But there are those individuals that could never be trusted to tie long. So in putting holes in my proposal, as I have been doing from the start. My garbage can is getting full of unfinished ideas......I have thought of this scenerio too.

And thank you Pam for you kind words. I believe that everyone on this thread and forum really want the best for thier horses. That has never really been the issue. It's just not easy to ignore some of the comments that are made.

Will always be learning about human nature. Being in the medical field does not teach us everything about the human mind. Nor does it give us insight into the nature of all individuals.

 

[hhpminis]

Syndi

Another issue other than the ones you and I spoke about is taking into consideratin USEF. We as a registry are governed by them and we cannot make a rule that conflicts with their rules. It would be a good idea to either read them or find someone who knows their rule book to get input from them.

I also dont think anyone who has bothered to respond would walk away from a horse in distress whether it was caused by a human or a physical ailment. But, different people see things differently and as I said in an earlier post, what one person considers inhumane or cruel, there will be someone on the other side of this view. Also, there are exceptions to everything. I have never had a situation where I felt it necessary to tie a horse for overnight and frankly can't think of one, but, I am not going to say that something in the future might come up that I would feel it was the safest route to take. I still dont think I could leave them if I did.

I learned a long time ago, to never say never. I have had to eat those words more than once in my lifetime. We all are put in positions that we have to make the best decision we can with the knowledge we have at that particular point in our life. I would like to think that every decision I have and will make in my lifetime was and will be the best, but I know better.

This proposal may end up being a better worded broad rule like the one we now have with just a few more teeth in it for Stewards to have a little more backing. As it is right now we can report anything we feel is inhumane or cruel to the stewards. The fact of the matter is they have to decide, is the horse in danger, hurt, or having something done that effects its health and safety. If a vet were called over to examine these horses, would their heart rate be elevated, would their respiration be up? Would there be outward signs of injury? Is the horse in anyway showing signs of distress? Now granted, if the vet or steward were to walk up and see the horse craning his neck attempting to lay down, maybe they would see things differently. But you would have to be there at that time as a horse will not lay that way for too long as it compromises their air exchange.

I see things happen a lot, and not just at horse shows I might add, that make me sad and angry as to the way people treat animals, all types. Being silent about it does nothing. Fighting politics about it often does nothing, but it does not mean we should not try. If I can do some research for you let me know.

 

[Yaddax3]

Syndi:

You have had quite a few posts on this tie-down topic, which is understandable because you started it. Due to your numerous postings, I have seen your avatar multiple times. It looked like you had your left leg raised in your avatar and was doing the Karate Kid crane move, but somebody pointed out it was the back end of another horse.

Photos can be deceiving.

 

[mininik]

Look again, Yaddax, and you will see that isn't Syndi's left or right leg; it's the back half of another horse in line up.

I dare say, though, I thought she was doing some sort of crazy dance step at first, too.

Even so, knowing Syndi to be the fun, courteous and kind person she is, I wasn't shocked or worried about the horse in front of her or anyone around her, even if she had been having a silly moment.

Perhaps you should focus your energy and concern on that horse's head growing out of her back instead?

 

[skanzler]

What are you two talking about?????? I still do not have a clue how to change my avatar or to make it roll. I am still living in the stone age..... Ok well that was a stretch of the truth, but I am still learning how this works. I have a pic on the profile page that I can't get to roll on the avatar and the one with the palomino just comes up random......

 

[ClickMini]

Syndi, I applaud your continued positive approach to this topic, in spite of some negativity.

I know Syndi personally and I know that her intents are pure and for the horse. She is a trainer, and I believe if someone approached her with concerns about the safety, health, or welfare of one of her horses, she would take it in the spirit intended and she would do her best to ensure the comfort of the animal.

Whatever you think of the TOPIC, any personal attacks are unfounded and unnecessary.

 

[Yaddax3]

What are you two talking about??????

Syndi:

Your avatar is so small -- everyone's is -- that it looks as if you are raising a leg in the air.

mininik set me straight: What looks to be your leg actually is the back end of another horse.

I can see that now, but I would have sworn you were doing the Karate Kid crane move.

 

[skanzler]

Man, I must be loosing my mind. Are you talking about the chestnut horse I am showing??? If so that is the back drop from Oregon Gold. And what you are seeing is a lady in blue jeans and a yellow vest sitting in a chair.

 

[Reble]

Found this interesting.

http://horses.about.com/od/understandingho.../horsesleep.htm

 

[wildoak]

Are you talking about the chestnut horse I am showing??

No, it looks like a palomino...and I thought the same thing LOL, it looks like a karate kick or something.

Jan

 

[skanzler]

Ok, went back through my show pics and found the one you are talking about and yes that is a black horse behind me. At my age and physical limits.....I don't think I could even begin to get into that position......LOL

I am going to find a way to redo my avatars. Can't wait to show you the pic of me showing my A__.....and yes I am talking about the one with long ears. And you thought showing minis is hard. Try a miniature donkey....