How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?

[hhpminis]

Reble, interesting article, thanks for the link.

My minis lay down a lot more than any big horse I have ever been around. I wonder if their lighter weight makes it more comfortable for them to do so.

I know that horses can and do sleep standing up, but all of mine lay down often. If I go out to the barn late at night, I can just about guarantee they will be laying down. They also look very comfortable doing so, ears and lips drooped, nose resting on the ground.

In the wild, a horse depends on flight to live. A horse that has to take the time to get up could likely become dinner to a predator. Being that most of our horses live a very comfortable life without the threat of predators, could it be possible that they let their guard down and lay down more often? If so, do they continue to have the ability to sleep restfully standing up?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[skanzler]

I also enjoyed the article. I have to agree with Annette. Mine lay down ALOT..... Many times they will eat their breakfast and then laydown and nap. Get up and eat some more. Many of mine spend the first day at Nationals sleeping away the day. It is a long trip and they are tired. When we get home from Nationals ours get turned out and when we go out they are fast asleep in the pastures. It is a great site.

I love the fact that mine are comfortable enough and secure enough to know they can lay down and rest.

My weanlings even slept on the trailer lying down in thier box stalls.

 

[justanothercowgirl]

I think especially at nationals they are overtired and probably want to lie down. After a 22 hour ride down there the gelding I brought down to drive had classes I believe every night but one. Sometimes I wasn't even pulling him out of his stall until 8:30pm to put a harness on him. When we finally got back to the stalls, sometimes after more than one class, some nights I had a first cut and was lucky enough to make the final he was a TIRED horse. He wanted to munch on some hay and then FLOP. Could he have done it tied up on a long tie...I imagine he could. Not what I choose but I wholeheartedly agree they want and need to lie down, it is hard enough on them having the lights on all night.

I guess it is the same as us, I CAN sleep in a chair if I am tired enough and I have to but it is not what I would choose. If I had to sleep in a chair in the aisle for the duration of Nationals I would no doubt survive but I wouldn't very likely feel like I was being treated humanely. OH!

 

[Boinky]

Pam i think your absolutely right about the lights being on! I think that is a big reason why my horses get grumpy and tired. They are not at all used to having "sunlight" 24/7. I'm thinking this year i might do tarps over the top for them so at night they can really rest. I had a tack stall i slept in with a good tarp over it and stall curtains and it did dim it up quite a bit. it was also easy to partially take down so i could have light and i'd take it down during the day.

 

[heart k ranch]

I would support it if the horses were tied up overnight.

What happens if someone has more then one horse. I understand why someone would tie for a few hours. Even when they have a pinto clored horse it would be hard trying to clean a spot off right before you walk into the ring.

I've been to barrel races where EVERY horse is tied that whole day (including mine). Most got a water bucket and a hay bag. also Most wore a saddle that whole day!

I honestly think 4 hours is pushing it but if the are tied to were they can move there head and not have it so tight their heads are being supported by the halter.

that of course is my 2 cents.....

 

[HGFarm]

I too have competed in speed events and other horse shows for years, where the horses had to be tied up off and on all day. They were also given water on a regular basis and warmed up correctly before entering the ring again, so it was not a constant thing. They also were not tied so short they could not move around comfortably.

I do not understand what the purpose of having a Mini tied IN a stall would be? The ONLY time ours are tied are in the grooming stall, or, if they have had a bath and are drying off, are groomed and ready for class, etc...

Also, even with a rule change, WHO is going to monitor things like this, report or enforce them? Who draws the line between cruelty or what is cruel to some, and something like going to an open show and tying horses to a trailer all day??? It sounds like it would be difficult to enforce... ???

 

[ClickMini]

I think the main point is that with a rule to back it up, a complaint could be acted upon. It would be a little easier for the steward to say, "Hey, not allowed." Not that there necessarily would be someone actively patrolling looking for violators, just that if there WAS a complaint, something could be done about it.

 

[skanzler]

Clickmini......EXACTLY.....It just gives those in authority, the Stewards, the teeth they need to stop this type of procedure. Not that the horses cannot be tied at all. Just not left tied ALL NIGHT LONG for days at a time.

A scenerio would be, when I left the grounds for the night and did a walk through my area to check my horses and maybe walked around to unwind a little after a long show day, and noticed someones horse was still tied. I would see if there was someone around. I may have to leave with the horse still tied for that night, and if he were still tied the next morning and there were obvious signs that he had been left there, and believe me there would be. I would then report it to a steward. The steward would then go to that person and discuss with them (with the new rule in place) that this practice is not allowed. At that time they could discuss the possible disciplinary actions that would take place if this were to continue.

I know this is not a perfect world and I know there are those that will try to get around any rule that is set forth. And I know that this propably will still go on even with a rule in place. I have seen things at our shows that are against the rules, appliances, dumb jockey's, ginger etc.... and even with rules they are still tolerated to a degree. So no, this rule is like any other, unless we as exhibitors don't stand up for those that can not speak, the horses. Who will? And yes, it is ultimately the stewards repsonsibility to enforce these rules. But without more specific rules in place how are they able to.

I just want to say thank you to everyone on this forum for thier input, for or against this possible proposal. Without all of you I would not have what I need to write well thought out rule proposal. There are still lots to work on but with everyones ideas I think we will be able to come up with something that will hopefully foot the bill and cover everyones concerns. And at the same time stand up to scrutiny....

 

[Amy]

I really don't think this will go over very well. At the present time ALL of the barns AND horses are checked on a daily basis (or even oftener) as the steward walks through the barns -- looking for just such things as "abuse".

"ABUSE" can be a dangerous word-- what you obviously see as abuse, others do not (as stated here many times on this thread) .

What I might not like - you might see nothing wrong with. And on & on it goes.

We need to be very careful we are not carrying out our own agenda on such matters.

Every person has the right to their own opinions -- but all of our rights end when we step on the rights of others -- and I do NOT mean condoning abuse.

I , for one do not think the tying of a horse constitutes abuse -- we show off trailers most of the season and no one suffers from this at all. We also travel over 1200 miles to attend Nationals -- our horses are tied, taken off for exercise, feed & water at several intervals during the day & have done very well in the show ring -- so they did not suffer any trauma from being tied for their own saftey.

If you do not wish to tye your horse -- then don't do it. Simple solution to your problem.But don't make problems for others out of your own phobia.

AND my age has nothingto do with my view point ( I am well over your magic age of 50 ) LOL

IF you see anything at ANY time at Nationals or any other show -- immediately report it to the steward and it will be investigated. You do not have to stand by & do nothing if it bothers you -- that is why (partly) that these officials are at the show.

Please do not try to take this into your own hands and "LEGISLATE" others to your opinion. I do not think it will fly well at Convention, or anywhere else.

 

[Fred]

AMEN!

 

[Boinky]

In one of the posts, not sure who said it, but someone said "not all horses tie well".. well yes that's true..but MOST people know their horses well enough to know if they tie well or not.. if they don't tie well i could see that is an instance where you probably wouldn't want to tie them.. but why should i, or anyone else, not have the option to not tie my horse in a stall (even overnight) if we so choose if my horse can tie well and is comfortably tied just because a few don't? I'm still not saying it's right to 'hang' a horse on a very short lead with no food water when it's so exhausted ect..but this is not a rule i really think i could support the way it's being presented at the present time on the forum and I don't see it being one that will pass with the general public. You'd have to word it very carefully if many were to go for it i think.

 

[skanzler]

Wow Amy, Thank you for your input. I guess you didn't read the entire posting of comments, only those that you didn't agree with. But that is ok. If I have learned nothing else from this topic. It is that we have a very diverse group of horse owners.

I am not sure where this comment "abuse" keeps coming up. I am sorry if I was pulled in at one time to use or defend it. But the proposal was "Unsafe, inhumane stalling procedures".

And what "agenda" would that be? That I dont' care to see horses hanging from thier halter from fatigue and inability to lay down?

My phobia....ok again not sure where that came from.....We tie ours too. But not 24/7........

If you read all of my comments you will see from where we began until now the "proposal". Which is all it is right now. Is a request "not to tie horses overnight", I will state it again.....not that they "can't" be tied at all.

If you still do not agree with this proposal when it is presented at Convention, then it is your right as a member to vote it down.

This was never meant, as I have stated before, to take peoples rights away. Or legislate anything. It was meant to give rights to the horses.

And as for the age comment, that was lost a long time ago on this thread. And no one has brought it up since. I am sorry you felt you had to bring it up again.

IF you see anything at ANY time at Nationals or any other show -- immediately report it to the steward and it will be investigated. You do not have to stand by & do nothing if it bothers you -- that is why (partly) that these officials are at the show.

and again if you read my complete comments on this, I did........

 

[macy--red carpet minis]

Wow, this is SUCH a hard topic to discuss without people getting very defensive.

I think that a rule like this would be so incredibly hard to pass, but it's a really good cause. And I think it has great intentions.

I agree that abuse is a really hard word because sometimes it's based on opinion.

I personally think that if a horse is tied with a long enough lead to be able to lie down, and they have water available then it is not abuse. Also, food should be available if the horse normally has it at night, but I don't think that it should say food MUST be available during the night hours because some horses don't get hay at night in the first place. If food was written into the rule then horses that don't normally eat after dinner hours or don't get hay at night then the trainers/owners would be forced to change their horses feeding program on the spot. That would cause so many problems.

I think if you said the rule as I put it above, that the horse must have enough lead to lie down and have access to water then everyone would be happy. This way, the trainers/owners get to continue using their techniques without their rights being invaded AND the people who feel as if a horse not being able to lie down at night is abuse would be satisfied.

As for those people who think tying at night is completly inhumane no matter what the circumstances are... I don't know really how this practice of the trainers could be broken without invading their rights. As many people have mentioned before, their are many training techniques that some people don't agree with. But, that doesnt mean that their training on their animals is going to change.

For example, I think it is COMPLETLY ridiculous to keep horses blindfolded in stalls to "animate" them in the showring because their so blinded by the bright lights when the blindfold is taken off that everything looks a little spooky to them, but I saw that being done at the National Level as well as the tying in the stalls.

This could get so extreme, because once again it's all in the individual's opinion. I jump my minis in the AMHA jumping classes, which can get to be VERY high for those little horses. I know someone that only shows Halter classes that thinks making the miniatures jump that high is cruel. And I agree that jumping that high CAN be potenially dangerous, but we take that risk. I know another only Halter showman who think the Obstacle class is wrong because the mini is facing things to try and scare it. But, we're not going to cut out 2 popular classes just because some people don't like it.

If the tying situation (along with most other "techniques") is in an controlled enviroment (horse can lie down, get drinking water, etc.) then it is no ones right to interfere with other people's animals. HOWEVER, if the situation is getting risky..the horse is tied so tight that it can barely stand there.. then someone needs to step in before the animal gets hurt.

The hard thing is, who decides when the situation is dangerous? Jumping however tall the class goes up to can be dangerous...it still goes on. Little kids driving carts is dangerous, Liberty class is "cruel" to some because the horse can get scared sometimes, driving golfcarts and working minis off the back of them is EXTREMELY dangerous. Yet, all of these things happen every day at the shows.

Please do not take anything said personally!

I tried really hard not to offend ANYONE.

If I did, I am really sorry.

These are just my opinions, I FULLY respect everyone elses

 

[skanzler]

Red Carpet, No flames.....thank you for your input, as with everyone else here, you are giving your opinion on a subject that has opened alot of minds and gotten people thinking. That is what was intended, And if this rule never comes to pass. Then maybe it gets people to thinking about what we will and will not tolerate in the treatment of our animals.

I see on here time and time again people reporting on horses that have been rescued and everyone gets up in arms about how they were treated prior to being rescued. And yes alot of them are VERY extreme. Some are just minimal, no water in thier buckets, no food to be seen, long overgrown hoofs, halters left on too long, bad living situations.....all of these things are unacceptable. In some instances we don't know how long they have been like that, just a few days, just a few weeks. We jump on those situations.

But when the situation is a controlled situation, like while a horse is being trained, conditioned and shown. Not only by trainers, but also by owners. little things such as blindfolding (hadn't seen or heard of that one), growing our hoofs long and a bad angles to get that extreme movement, quicking while trying to get your horse measured in, heavy blanketing and restricting water to get that tight look in halter, use of ginger, ponying multiple horses off a golf cart.... the list goes on. These things we look at as tolerable because who are we to say whether they are unsafe, inhumane, cruel...... How can we inflict our opinions on those that use these techniques..... Why are these two things so different. I know there are some definite difference that most will come up with. But really are they that different when we are talking about a living, breathing, feeling individual.

Lets not get all bent out of shape, I am just asking a question. This is not in support or opposition of the original post, just something that I was thinking of.

 

[Katiean]

There are those that say calf roping is abuse. They have done it for hundreds of years. Sometimes one even gets killed. Do we need to stop calf roping? I am going to be showing from my trailer. If I need to tie overnight (not that I have or will) I will. If some rule tells me I can't tie then I will not show. I am sure there are a lot of people that feel the same. I would suggest that if there are one or two people that take tying to an extreme have the local SPCA talk to that owner/trainer at the show. I am sure it would not be too hard to get them out to the show. I think a rule against tying would be more problems for the average breeder/trainer that is maybe tying for the good of the horse. I know I would rather see a horse tied rather than bashing it's self against the stall wall because it wants out of the stall. You are going to do what you want. But, I think you are taking rights away from the horse owner to give them to an animal.

 

[hhpminis]

These things we look at as tolerable because who are we to say whether they are unsafe, inhumane, cruel...... How can we inflict our opinions on those that use these techniques..... Why are these two things so different. I know there are some definite difference that most will come up with. But really are they that different when we are talking about a living, breathing, feeling individual.

That really has been my point through this entire post. Perhaps I have done a bad job of stating that.

Really what is the difference? Right back to what one person considers routine horsemanship or a way to get that edge. Personally most of the things you mentioned I consider inhumane. Working horses behind a golf cart is a particular pet peeve of mine and it makes me want to yell, "Get off your fat butt and work your horse!". It is an accepted practice, especially in the A circuit and I was never so happy when management at R Nationals quit allowing golf carts in the exercise areas. Oops, sorry, I got off on a tangent there.

What I have been saying all along, it will be very hard, maybe even impossible to get a rule passed that is so itemized. It opens a can of worms in that will we as an organization believe that unless it is a specific rule written against, lets say, full blanketing your horse in 90 degree weather, it must be a OK and humane.

While I admire your passion towards this, there just are so many odds against you in this. Does this mean you should not try? Absolutely not, but be prepared. Like I said, get info on the USEF rules that could possibly stand in your way, local laws, etc. Dot all your i's and cross all your t's.

Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just did as Erica said and treat their horses how they would want to be treated if they were a horse. That is not rocket science, just common sense and compassion. Respect them and they will respect you. You can usually tell which horses respond out of respect and enjoy their job.

 

[skanzler]

Thank you Annette, well said. I guess I have just not stated it well......

Yes all I want is for people to just step into the skin of thier horse and look at life through thier eyes. It isn't about us. Its about them.

And actually my next step is to contact other horse breeds and the USEF for thier input and then the stewards and a few others. I will definitely make sure that everything is in order before I attend Convention. I have several people offering to help me write it correctly.

Thanks again Annette.

 

[hhpminis]

Your welcome

 

[mininik]

The more I read here, the more I love my dog sports...

My pony can stay home this year and I'll just show my dogs.

Many dog organizations (including the AKC) have prohibited various collars (including choke collars, pinch collars, prong collars, head collars, electric and dummy electric collars) in competition for sports such as Agility and Obedience, yet many professional trainers use those prohibited devices with much success. Even so, your dog cannot enter an Agility or Obedience event in anything but a flat buckle collar, martingale collar or choke collar (depending upon the event), with nothing hanging from it. This rule obviously takes away exhibitors' right to put whatever they want around their dogs' necks, for whatever reason. There are no exceptions, or timelines when it's okay. Now, that's not necessarily because those prohibited collars can't be used in a non-abusive way, or because every dog who has one on is, has been or might be abused. It's also not necessarily because a dog can't be abused with an acceptable collar, or be abused at home with a prohibited collar only to show up with an acceptable collar on for competition. More than anything, I believe it to be a rule that helps present a positive image to the public, which is exactly what a having an exhausted horse hanging from it's lead trying to sleep in it's stall at a National show would not do. Dog sport people can now Eliminate a person who shows up with a prohibited collar on their dog at an event, no questions asked. They don't assume there may or may not be a problem, or if the dog is used to the prohibited collar, or might need one for control issues. It seems many horse people would rather argue about their rights to keep their horses in unsafe situations and come up with a myriad of excuses instead of consider that perhaps the horses should have rights, too. Nice!

 

[skanzler]

The more I read here, the more I love my dog sports...

My pony can stay home this year and I'll just show my dogs.

Many dog organizations (including the AKC) have prohibited various collars (including choke collars, pinch collars, prong collars, head collars, electric and dummy electric collars) in competition for sports such as Agility and Obedience, yet many professional trainers use those prohibited devices with much success. Even so, your dog cannot enter an Agility or Obedience event in anything but a flat buckle collar, martingale collar or choke collar (depending upon the event), with nothing hanging from it. This rule obviously takes away exhibitors' right to put whatever they want around their dogs' necks, for whatever reason. There are no exceptions, or timelines when it's okay. Now, that's not necessarily because those prohibited collars can't be used in a non-abusive way, or because every dog who has one on is, has been or might be abused. It's also not necessarily because a dog can't be abused with a flat buckle collar, or be abused at home with a prohibited collar only to show up with an acceptable collar on for competition. More than anything, I believe it to be a rule that helps present a positive image to the public, which is exactly what a having an exhausted horse hanging from it's lead trying to sleep in it's stall at a National show would not do. Dog sport people can now Eliminate a person who shows up with a prohibited collar on their dog at an event, no questions asked. They don't assume there may or may not be a problem, or if the dog is used to the prohibited collar, or might need one for control issues. It seems horse people would rather argue about their rights to keep their horses in unsafe situations instead of consider that perhaps the horses should have rights, too. Nice!

Thank you Nikki, very well said. I think this is why some person got fed up with seeing horses in dumb jockeys and kick chains, bands and other devises at AMHR shows and wrote a rule prohibiting them. Would have enjoyed meet that person. I'm sure that rule, as this one, got alot of people hot about "their" rights...

And yes they still use them at home, I am sure that rule didn't stop those people, but at least it was not tolerated at the shows.