how necessary is the overcheck?

[disneyhorse]

MiLo...

How the horse is built also plays greatly into the adjustment of the checkrein.

Not all minis are built like QHs with their necks needing to be horizontal to walk and pull relaxed.

Lots of horses are built upright and can pull/ride along quite happily with their head up, and there is not constant pulling of the check on their gums/mouths.

With training a horse can learn to round their back without dropping their head down between their knees... just what sort of PULLING are your minis doing while pulling a cart?

The Jerald I have, there is very little resistance to it and the horse isn't having to put it's head down to pull. It's not pulling a plow, it's pulling a cart. Plow horses shouldn't have to wear a check... but guess what, they DO! And they work just fine.

I personally find side checks much more comfortable for the horse and I don't find that a separate check bit is needed, particularly with the minis. PLENTY of them all go just fine!

Andrea

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am just starting to drive so cant say much here other then the one thing I do know about horses is.. there is no way you are going to get there best performance out of them in anything from driving, riding, jumping, halter... if the horse is horribley uncomfortable- horribly unhappy, or really doesnt want to be doing what they are doing

The fact that so many horses drive with checks and do so quite well and are able to truly use there hind end as well as the front end (granted in a very different way then a West pleasure horse) says that they are not cruel and awful with no place in the driving world as some would think

As Disney said these are minis pulling light weight carts and hopefully not pulling people to big for them so it isnt like log pulling or something and build would have a lot to do with it.

Of course a horse who moves like a west pleasure driving horse or SOME country horses doesnt need to be checked up tight as it does go opposite as to how they move and naturally use themselves however for those very upheaded horses and ponies it isnt nearly such a change for them

Another one of those things people will just not agree on like anything and any peice of equipment or way of training has its good and bad and all depends on who is using it and how it is being used

 

[MiLo Minis]

Try it yourself - just tilt your head back and feel how your back arches. Now try doing that for an hour or so and see how your back feels. Then try pulling a heavy wagon for an hour like that.

I breed for driving horses and all my horses are very upheaded with good necks and trim throatlatches. Once they build up the correct muscles for pulling a cart they achieve very nice head carriage - upright, tucked, with their noses vertical and not a check to be seen. Checks are a short cut to elegant head carriage in the show ring at the expense of the horses back. How many of the Minis you see in the breed show ring are still driving into their late teens and twenties?

I personally don't agree with checks and only use them when forced to in the breed show ring but if you don't mind treating your horses like that, its your perogative.

I don't know of anyone that plows and uses a checkrein on their horse and I am in Mennonite country where there are plenty of plowhorses. That would be just counterproductive and they need their horses to plow.

 

[MiniHGal]

To answer the OP's original question: no, I would say the overcheck is not necessary. However, horses can react explosively to changes in their equipment, and for that reason, I would suggest grounddriving him without it initially, to check and make sure that it will not bother him to have that much freedom. Probably not, but it is always safer to try something new out without a cart attached. I would be more leary of removing his blinders, especially if he was not trained to go without them originally. Most horses can make the transition, but some just can't deal with the information overload for something they were already trained to do. If he is happy in the blinders (as I would bet he is), you are probably better off keeping them.

As most know on this board, I am a proponent of going checkless; indeed, my organization (ADS--American Driving Society) does not allow checks of any kind except in specific instances, ie: Training level may use a sidecheck, and a few of the pleasure driving classes (Park) allow checks. I have trained several horses and minis to drive, and all of them can drive without checks.

I do not think the check effectively minimizes a horse's ability to kick out at the cart/buck, etc. Look at the Lipizzaners: the Capriole is done with a fairly high headset, higher than most horses are checked. Yes, this takes effort, training, and muscle ability....but I find that minis(having less body mass) are more apt to perform airs above the ground. A mini is certainly capable of wrecking a cart with or without a check on, and I would not trust a check to decrease that damage!

I also believe, and I work with quite hot, green horses, that the check can actually be a hindrance to calming the horse down. Generally releasing the tension in the neck is one of the hardest parts of relaxing a horse--a tight necked horse is harder to steer, can easily run through the bit if frightened, and the tension builds on itself. The easiest way to release the tension is to stretch the neck (visualize a compressed spring that has been allowed to resume its normal appearance) and for most horses, the check is too short to achieve a good stretch.

On the other hand, I don't think checks are horrible, evil inventions that hurt the horse. Too tight, especially on the wrong kind of horse (ie: lowset neck with a check for a highset neck), yes. But for the horse that goes around a ring, on a trail, or in the neighborhood, and doesn't have to pull or really use the back, its just fine, in general.

Now, for dressage, no, you don't want a low head set! But with many horses, you start off there, to develop the upper neck muscles and back. It can show them how to use implusion to raise their back and develop suspension. Once you have that established, you ask for more collection, and with that, usually, comes a higher head. But you have lots of hind end still working underneath the horse, pushing him up. One of the principles of dressage is relaxation, too, so even your highly collected horse needs a break and a chance to relax those muscles that have been working so hard. That means they stretch down, as they learned in training. I want that scope and flexibility in my horses. Now of course they are not 'highly collected' big dressage horses, but it takes energy and causes muscle fatigue and they need to be able to put their neck and head where I ask, whether high and tight (a la showring) or round and low.

Bottom line, Charlene, you probably don't need to heed any of this.

:

 

[Chamomile]

I start all my driving horses without a check rein and in an open bridle. Most of them handle the open bridle quite well. I have had 2 that just couldn't do their job in the open bridle however, one of them was a donkey :bgrin Then again, another donkey that I trained would not drive with blinders. I had to drive him in an open bridle. So I guess it really does depend on the horse! I start mine that way, because sometimes you don't know where they will end up, will the people drive with blinders or without? This way my horses would be able to do any job given them.

My CDE horse does not drive with an over or side check. My show horse drives with a side check. They both go forward smoothly and well. They both bend and flex in harness. They both drive on the bit and collect beautifully. But I am VERY careful. When out driving on the road and such, I remove the check all together on my show horse. I don't ever drive with my check rein tight. I just don't do that. I am also a certified equine massage therapist and what the check rein forces the horse to do, goes against what I was taught, but then again, so does riding the horse

: Some of my "people" drive their horses with tighter check reins, with my help first in getting the horse happy and on the bit, we then tighten the check rein for the show ring. Their horses are happy and winning in the ring, so it works for them! But I am forcefull about the fact that when they are done in the ring, they get out and loosen or remove the check rein. We work in it and also out of it when practicing and doing our lessons. I wouldn't send a newbie out with a check rein. I've seen too many people have trouble because of them. Mostly they seem to get them hooked on the shaft end and WHOOOOHOOO what a wreck can happen!!

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Add me to the group who would just as soon drive without a check, but I do - in the show ring and sometimes on the city trails - Appy really doesn't seem to give a hoot either way - he's happy and comfortable in pretty much everything I put him in... of course I make sure everything is adjusted properly, and in shows where he drives in say, 8 classes in one day - we "check" the adjustment of the check often - and take it off when there's enough of a break between classes.

I don't believe that a check in and of itself is harmful. A check adjusted too tightly and/or a check that is being used instead of TRAINING and PRACTICE to artificially haul a horses head up can certainly hurt a horse, but I'm pretty sure that few of us would try that, and that a majority of those who do would immediately figure out that they were doing something wrong and fix it.

Of course the CDE's and ADS shows you don't use checks - and we generally school Appy in an open bridle with no check - but I'm pretty sure Appy will keep his good back and keep driving his whole, hopefully long life... even if I never drive him "checkless" again.

 

[Katiean]

I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you say that a check rein is to keep a horse from grazing. When you are not going anywhere you uncheck your horse. So that theory out the window. You Also can not compare a horse and it holding it's head up with a check rein to a human holding their head up (and if you do that right there is no arch to the back). We are not built the same as a horse. I think if I had to trot or jog for a mile you would be picking me up at the end of that with a shovel and it doesn't hurt a horse. A check rein does not hurt a horse. If you want to talk about what a horse does and doesn't like my driving mare would rather have a check rein than a crupper. I mean, how would you like that big roll of leather crammed under your tail? No not all horses need a check rein but we ALL have to use that crupper.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If the checkrein, as everyone is so quick to say, does nothing and does not harm the horse- WHY is it being used??

OF COURSE it harms the horse- it forces it to carry it's head in a certain position, one that it would not normally adopt without an artificial aid.

That is CHEATING!!

Get a grip- train your horses properly or get horses with better conformation, basically.

If the rest of the world does not need it, how come the horses in America do??

There is NOTHING in the rules that say the checkrein has to be attached to the bit, BTW, and there is NOTHING in the rules that says that the checkrein has to be so tight the horses head is strained up in the air- and Yes I have seen pictures of winning horses trained and shown in this manner.

If the checkrein is not really doing anything and is not really harming the horse why are you using it??

 

[justagirl]

I'm still too new to driving to say whether or not the check is beneficial or harmful , but I do lean towards NOT using one ... just a personal preference , we drive around here in the pastures and have small terraces and my gelding prefers to lower his head to make this easier on him going up these SMALL hills (and NO we aren't overloading the cart)

MiniHGal ~ I just wanted to ask a question ... the horse in your avatar has beautiful head carriage , is he wearing a check ?? Was he trained in a check ??

 

[stormy]

You know it is interesting, I have a Kieffer made harness, Kieffer Germany is that not right? It has an overcheck yet it is european. I would love to know why the overcheck has become the item of rancor here and not devices like draw reins, chambons (sp), chains, weights, bits? All these are abused to a much greater extent than a check rein, have seen literally hundreds of minis driving in bits that are too wide and pinch up into the roof of the mouth when applied but vertually never hear anyone advise when driving to check the size and fir of your bit! A check rein is a tool, not painful when used correctly, I think all of us know you don't go on a two hour drive down the road is a tight check but a loose check can avoid issues like ducking under the fills, getting a rein hooked on the fill or head down bucking (which usually means feet in your face!).

We've all read Black Beauty and no one disagrees a too tight check on an uphill haul with a heavy load is cruel, so is riding drunk, smoking in the barn and riding a horse without consideration of its feelings! My stallion Stormy is 27 years old this year, showed him locally at the age of 24 driving in a check as he has driven all his life, he had a blast, even barrel raced in cart. We won a few ribbons and the old boy goes as sound as ever after a LONG driving career including showing, wagon trains (20 miles a day pulling a small wagon), parades, introducing a heap of kids to driving, many trail drives and much more all with an overcheck adjusted according to the occasion.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

We've all read Black Beauty and no one disagrees a too tight check on an uphill haul with a heavy load is cruel, so is riding drunk, smoking in the barn and riding a horse without consideration of its feelings!

Well first off I have to say I love the book but...I sure wouldnt base training around fictional (although heart tugging and well written) book- Does it make everyone think about the horses well being well of course it does but any true horsemen will do that anyway.(ythat was going to a different thread on the same subject not your reference Stormy)

I guess I dont understand how we went from one persons opinion and choice to not use a check to A whole country needing to either not use a check or to have a horse with better conformation or train them properly.

 

[Minimor]

I drive without a check more often than not, and when I do use one it's a side check--as far as I'm concerned overchecks are for roadster classes only--but I cannot say that checks are evil things.

Sure, if they're done up too tight they aren't nice at all, but there's a vast difference between Black Beauty with his tight check being asked to pull a heavy load up a hill and a Mini (or a light horse breed for that matter) pulling one person in a reasonably light cart, and his sidecheck in place adjusted so loose that he can lower his nose to his knees. Granted the sidecheck isn't needed and could be removed, but when it's adjusted that loose it's not an evil instrument of torture either, and is doing no harm.

And no, plow horses don't wear checks when working in the field, but there again that is heavy pulling and the horse has to lower his head.

I agree there are much worse things in Mini driving than check reins--as said above, cheap, poorly made, poorly fitted bits, cavessons that are cranked tight to keep the pony from opening his mouth or even mouthing the bit (can we say crushed inner cheeks from where that cavesson forces the cheek to be crushed between bit & the molars when the snaffle bit pulls up in the mouth?)

I think that if a check rein was the absolute worst form of cruelty a Mini ever had to endure, life would be pretty darn good.

 

[Charlene]

that is SO NOT FAIR!!! it's 82* here with 90% humidity and i am stuck in the house. WAAAA!!!!

go an extra mile for me, would ya??

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

If the checkrein is not really doing anything and is not really harming the horse why are you using it??

Mainly because it's required in the show ring.... so my horses need to be comfortable wearing one!

:

I *LOVE* and respect your advice and input Jane - but a properly adjusted (and in Appy's case, usually very loose) check isn't going to hurt!

 

[Katiean]

A check properly adjusted does aid in the horses balance. Why don't you guys get some real education about the device before you start crying "inhumane". If you want to get down to it Jumping could be viewed as inhumane. Or even haltering a horse. Look at your babies when you are halter training them. THEY DON"T LIKE IT. But you do it because it suits you. So quit your boobing and train your horses properly or let them be wild. because anything but wild could be viewed as inhumane.

 

[MiniHGal]

MiniHGal ~ I just wanted to ask a question ... the horse in your avatar has beautiful head carriage , is he wearing a check ?? Was he trained in a check ??

justagirl, that is my Intermediate level CDE mare. She was not in a check for that picture (indeed, a check would have been illegal for that competition), and has never been in a check. However, if I ever decide that I want to go play breed show, I will show her in a check, blinders, no breeching, blah blah. Its the way things roll in the breed show classes. She actually has a lower neck set then I like, but it is put on a very nice body that can do some amazing things. It has taken a long time, by dressage training, to get her 'head set' to that picture. That only happens after they learn to use their back and step under with the hind feet(implusion).

And incidentally, katiean, a check is not there to aid with balance, and should not be used as such. That is worse than a horse that hangs on your hands for 'balance'. The DRIVER should be the one, through a sensitive and forgiving contact, to support the horse. This support should never be used to 'hold the horse up'. A check, by the nature of the thing, can NOT be sensitive and forgiving. I like my horses(even if they were to go in checks), to have light, quiet, happy mouths, and be able to use their self-carriage (that I taught them) to hold themselves up.

And just because my horses go without a check does not mean that they get grass every chance they get! Once its known that the grass is off limits, they rarely make more than a couple vague tries, easily fended off with a warning sound and a rein signal. We drive on grass a lot...in fact many dressage arenas are on grass...and I have never gotten a comment of 'horse lost implusion--don't let it eat grass!', LOL. It is a very big safety no-no to let them eat grass while hitched, whether standing or moving. And in case no one gets the point of my posts...I figure everyone has their own way of doing things, and if that includes a check, so be it. My way is not always the right way, and there are many other ways to go! I prefer checkless, as stated, and ML prefers checks, as stated...thats the way we do things and our horses are not suffering one way or the other. The driving I do, I don't want a check's interference.

:lol:

 

[Relic]

Thankyou for your post Mary Lou that was refreshing to read after some of the other posts...

 

[disneyhorse]

Any equipment can be used properly or improperly, and every trainer is certainly going to have a preference and their own opinions and feelings.

I used to feel that weights and chains were absolutely cruel and thought I would never even consider using them on a horse... until I started learning more and considering both sides of the coin. (Mind you this is for Modern Shetlands, not miniatures.)

But you see, what is "proper and ethical" for Modern Shetlands is not "proper and ethical" for the Miniature Horse when discussing weights and chains.

Overchecks are not proper for CDE driving, but are for a Roadster horse.

It is a discussion of something controversial... and ALL controversial subjects do NOT have a right or wrong. If there was a clear right or wrong, there would be no controversy! That is why people stick up for either one or the other, there are good arguments for both sides but neither is right and neither is wrong.

Andrea

 

[Margo_C-T]

Thank you, Breanne.

I drive checkless virtually all the time now. If I show in driving in the breed ring, I would HAVE to use a check, so it would be a lightly-adjusted sidecheck--though I would surely like to see the miniature breed registries come into the 21st century and make checks OPTIONAL. I believe there is very little to no proof that a check would 'prevent' bucking--(I like a horse with 'get up and go' as well as anyone, but have to say, I would have NO desire to be in the same ring with a horse whose driver was 'counting on' a tight(and they are almost ALWAYS tight!)overcheck to control a horse who wished to buck!!)

People do need to remember that an overcheck and a sidecheck are NOT the same thing, do NOT affect the horse in strictly the same way. The sidecheck IS the 'lesser evil' of the two(and of course, it is silly to say that almost any inanimate 'thing' is inherently EVIL; I am speaking figuratively, not literally, above!). I do believe it IS possible to utilize a 'thing' in an unpleasant--to use a polite term-- manner, though. I have seen plenty of miniatures in the breed ring that showed noticable relief when 'released' from a VERY tight overcheck. That said, I believe that there is NOTHING wrong with or 'mean' about using a lightly adjusted sidecheck if/when the situation calls for it--I still occasionally do so myself! I can testify, though, that is really CAN be simpler and safer(no catching a sidecheck over the shaft tips by a horse who likes to SWING its head around to one side or the other! Of COURSE, I discourage, and correct, this--but there ARE horses who will 'sneak one' by' you, and may well manage to snag certain configurations of sidecheck on a shaft tip in a HEARTBEAT--which can be dangerous!)--to become quite able to drive without even that, if you can!

When I began showing my minis in driving, I 'followed the pack', but long before I had ANY contact with the tenets of ADS-type driving, I realized(because I have a habit of thinking for myself) that I did not like, nor did I NEED, overchecks, or running martingales(now, the legitimate use of a running martingale, properly adjusted, is to keep the 'pull' low, therefore encouraging a horse to keep its nose 'down', instead of sticking it up and/or out in response to backpressure on the bit via the rein(and that is how it's use *may* occasionally be justifiable, for the occasional horse in an occasional situation.) It's purpose was never to better enable you to 'hold' or 'force' the horse's nose in and back, 'trapping' the horse between that and a tight overcheck--yet that is how I see it most frequently used in driving miniatures.

Bottom line for me? Overchecks-no. Sidechecks-When called for; just adjust comfortably, and watch out for 'shaft-tip snagging'! Other 'devices'--are they 'supposed to be' a 'shortcut' to/substitute for(there IS no substitute!!) proper,and considerate, training? Then, nope.

Margo

PS: I have never come across ANY equine discipline where it was considered desirable to hollow out the back(which a tight overcheck is most likely to do, among other things.) Have I missed something?

 

[Charlene]

pardon me while i go get something to clean the drool off my keyboard! :bgrin

wonderful pictures, looks like a beautiful day there! *sigh*