how necessary is the overcheck?

[disneyhorse]

PS: I have never come across ANY equine discipline where it was considered desirable to hollow out the back(which a tight overcheck is most likely to do, among other things.) Have I missed something?

Most of the disciplines where the horse is asked for HIGH action (versus extension) a more hollowed-out back will benefit. The horse hollows it's back, raises it's head, and then it is able to lift it's knees above level. The horses are usually BRED for this conformation... a longer back, more upright neck, laid back shoulder, and general conformation towards "gaited" with leg angles and lengths for extreme action. Most naturally trot level, and then when the muscles are properly trained, the horse is able to break above level. It requires a lot of talent and athleticsm from the horse and a lot of skill from the trainer. Most of these horses, when driven not ridden, go along in an overcheck versus a sidecheck.

I think besides Saddlebreds and Hackneys... the draft horses are actually trained along this route. They hollow the back and raise the nose up and out with an overcheck as high as possible in the "hitch" horses... but I find it weird there is NO effort to make the drafters be able to then tuck their noses in! Most hitch drivers are perfectly happy with almost-stargazers.

Again, not wrong, but "different."

Andrea

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The point is, Mary Lou that, loose as your check is, if your horse stumbled (WHEN your horse stumbles) he will rip his mouth out.

Good Luck with that!!

Again, if you want a high head carriage BREED IT!!

Stop with all these artificial aids- look where it got the TWH and their flipping "Big Licks" Does anyone seriously want to see that sort of thing creep in??

I have watched Hackney clases in the US and I have NEVER in my life seen anything like it!!

Our Hackneys are shown in side checks (we do not have over checks) and they are also watched very carefully by the RSPCA!!

They are nowhere near as tight as US Hackneys- I just do not know how people sleep at nights.

ANY horse can be trained to go forward with it's ears pricked- especially the horses with huge "heart" and drive- they love to run and show off and, if having their heads attached to their tails is the price, they will pay it and still look good- this does not mean it is right or that they are happy, it only means that, once again, we have pushed our sweet forgiving animals to the limit if their tolerance in thew name of fashion.

Get a grip, for Goodness sake, take the flipping things off and level the playing field and start again with natural head sets and natural movement- this after all is the only thing that can actually be inherited.

 

[willowoodstables]

Great thread!

Very interesting explanations, pros and cons are being offered here..and it seems like the "HOT" button is not being pushed here.

I use a check in breed shows...why??? Because someone said so. I can't wear a tube top in a class because someone said so. I have to have blinders in a class because someone said so. All these rules are antiquitated (sp) and need to be re-looked at. Tradition is hard to break..look at the amount of people who prefer leather/brass harness versus biothane/chrome??? The check rein had a purpose somewhere a million years ago as a quick fix to problems. Then someone realized the horse can "look" fancy with it's head up and began "cranking" heads up. Of course these people never realized that a stubby low-tied neck will not help to create a fancy horse even with a tight check. Then as training methods and "fads" change, people began breeding "CARRIAGE" horses..as in conformation was desired for longer strides, ground covering movement, shorter/dipped backs, longer necks etc. When you see a breed that was primarily BRED to drive..you will see a world of difference.

IE The hackney...they are trotting bred..long necks that come out of the middle of their backs..shorter backs with a bit of a dip so they can "lift", longer sloping shoulders, massive hips etc. Motion is open and ground covering..hence your fancy driving horse (also the Dutch Harness Horse, Cleveland Bays etc)

Standardbreds...shoulders that slope into next week, necks that are tied in low..strong low slung hocks and longer backs..why??? Because they are speed horses and they are being bred specifically to get there in a hurry and a horse with a high head and high motion is not near as fast as a low headed horse. And to cover ground the longer backs help with interference.

Then you have your cross overs..Arabs and Saddlebreds..well look through a magazine and find me 10 pictures of a horse that is NOT leaving it's hocks behind!! Why?? because they may seem to have the same body parts as a driving horse, but there are weaknesses (ie rear end) that show up when the horse is asked to raise up and PULL at the same time.

Minis...we seem to be breeding for a driving type now.

That said, the check is still being used traditionally..to keep the head up!!! And not because the horse bucks in harness..why because the un-educated or un-knowing THINK or have been told that is the norm. Myself ,I believe that a check is a decoration. If you MUST have it..make the bit and adjustment loose enough that if the horse stumbles he won't get bopped in the mouth. I NEVER NEVER train with a check. The horse is taught propulsion and drive (as in the rear) and strengthened so that they can put their head in a spot naturally. The check is then adjusted so that it just sits there. I also put a tiny piece of thick black elastic around the waterhook and attach that to the end of the check..so it can give in case of an emergency.

I have had all breeds, and the first thing I do is once the horse is settled in longlines..I "goose" him up a little (excite) to see where he will put his head. If it raises no more than an inch..that's where he wants to put in naturally. I think that the horse MUST be given a chance to work within HIS parameters, not just your ideals or the showrings. There is NOT a perfect horse made yet..so help him be happy and comfy..forsake the 5 cent scrap of ribbon of a win for a happy fun driving horse! I believe there are a LOT of unhappy driving horses out there. I would like to see a change in the driving ring in all breeds (Hackney, Arab, etc) that offers you the CHOICE or check or no check. They do it now with martingales ..they are optional (although EVERONE uses them..spinoff coming here). I believe that more knowledgeable trainers/clinicians will help people understand that mechanical aids never are the answer. That you must work with what you have.

It boils down to my motto "If he is bucking/rearing/running off/kicking in harness SOMETHING is wrong. Tightening the check or slapping on a kicking strap is not going to solve it. I MUST go back to square one and listen to my horse..he told me earlier, I just missed it. Also somewhere out there my mother is whispering "You can't make a silk purse here".

Kim

 

[MiLo Minis]

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: VERY well said Kim!!! I truly don't see the point if that winning horse cannot reproduce himself - where is the gain for the breed? There are many humane ways to train a horse to the best of its ability but there are ALWAYS those people that short circuit wherever they can just to call themselves a winner and if it is at the expense of their animal well too bad.

I really don't consider those people winners.

After reading some of the replies I also think that some people just take others word for it and don't use their own good sense to think about what they are doing and how it is affecting their horse. Just because it is done doesn't necessarily make it right.

 

[Charlene]

i am reminded of a woman i used to trail ride with. she had a lovely big, stocky quarter horse gelding that COULD have been a wonderful trail horse. problem was, her saddle was too narrow. the poor horse was being pinched and was miserable under saddle. he tossed his head constantly and cuing him to canter only brought on bucking fits. i kept telling her she needed a wider treed saddle. she kept saying she could not afford a new saddle so she just put a tie-down on him.

i felt so bad for that horse. after watching him on the trail one day, when we got back to our trailers, i insisted she try my saddle, made with an extra wide tree for my flat-backed, wide gelding. i saddled her horse, took the tie-down OFF and rode him out across the field. the difference was night and day. he was happy, moved off at a lovely trot and i think he would have gone all day without so much as one buck. thankfully, she saw the difference too and soon was saving up for a new saddle.

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: VERY well said Kim!!! I truly don't see the point if that winning horse cannot reproduce himself - where is the gain for the breed? There are many humane ways to train a horse to the best of its ability but there are ALWAYS those people that short circuit wherever they can just to call themselves a winner and if it is at the expense of their animal well too bad.

I really don't consider those people winners.

After reading some of the replies I also think that some people just take others word for it and don't use their own good sense to think about what they are doing and how it is affecting their horse. Just because it is done doesn't necessarily make it right.

and i do not consider them "horse people".

 

[disneyhorse]

I also don't think some of you give enough credit for horses, working with the equipment they are trained in. I have seen quite a few horses stumble and fall with a check rein on (however, these were "properly adjusted" check reins where the horse's mouth is at the breastcollar level) and they did NOT rip their mouth up at ALL! I have actually never seen a horse rip it's mouth when falling with a check. Most understand it and have some sense of self-preservation.

In fact, in most cases I have found the check rein encourages a fallen horse to remain on the ground until the driver is able to safely unhook the horse. Because a horse must dip it's head down and THEN lurch forward to get up, the check reminds the horse to remain where it is.

I still don't think they are evil, they just have their own place in some disciplines. Some people think putting shoes on a horse at all is unnatural and cruel. I think most bits with leverage are unnatural and cruel but they certainly have their use in some disciplines.

I also don't see where having an overcheck on is going to make a horse MORE than what it is bred to be. If it can't physically hold it's head there, the check isn't going to MAKE it do that. These horses NATURALLY break level and carry their heads high! It's just EQUIPMENT you are adding! A bit can't MAKE a horse more or less than what it is, but the right bit fitted properly can enhance the horses' response to you. They ARE bred to perform that way.

This is my Modern Shetland mare. She hasn't had any weighted shoes or action aids applied:

She doesn't have the extreme long, upright neck that the top Moderns have, but I think her motion is very nice. She naturally moves this way. Putting an overcheck on her will not make her magically have the upright neck set that a Champion Harness Pony would have, because she was not conformed that way.

By comparison, a little colt I just bought seems to have a higher neck set than her:

He should NATURALLY be able to carry his head higher than her, check or no check.

Horses are TRAINED with whatever equipment is needed for their discipline, be it overchecks, western saddles, stallion tack (side reins), breastcollars, full draft collars... and what is the extent of "cruel"? Different disciplines will always be considered cruel depending on the viewer's experience. I think horses do what they are bred to do. Is western Reining cruel... forcing such strain on the hocks and legs to do such incredible quick athletic maneuvers? Is stadium Jumping cruel, for forcing horses to leap incredible jumps and sometimes falling? Is draft horse pulling competitions cruel, forcing a horse or two to pull a weight with every fiber of it's body even if the load is too heavy? Is fine Harness cruel, forcing a horses' head up with a check rein? These horses are all athletes, trained to do what they were bred to do because they have the conformation, mind, and talent to do it. The owners and trainers love them and care for them and are usually in awe of what the horse is capable of.

Where is the line drawn in the use of spurs, whips, stud chains, bits, shoes, saddles.... it's all in the eye of the beholder AND the proper or improper use of it.

Andrea

 

[willowoodstables]

Andrea..your modern mare may not have a long neck, but it at least ties in right!

"ETA

ANDREA....that colt is exactly what I am trying to demonstrate...that is a horse bred to be fancy. dippy back, neck and tail outta his back. That is the TYPE of animal I try to work with. Not all are like that, but my personal choice is that type versus no neck no leg. I could put a check on that boy and he's gonna do the same as my pony JJ. You're gonna have to tie his check to the waterhook.."

I was just trying to expain that there is a rule that states you have to have a check. BUT it does not need to make your horse uncomfortable or unsightly.

My freakin check caused me to lose a class last week. WHY???? It bounced off right at the beginning of the class ( to the shouts of "your checks off"..woopeedoo) but in the line up of best lady driver, the horse was to remain standing checked...hmmm..mine was hanging there. Oh well..at least the horse continued the whole class without a check..not worried about where his head was LOLOL Here is JJ at the walk, outside of the ring. Check is off. This is what I was trying to explain in my post..work with your horse. He can and will do most of what you ask him. This pony happily continued his class with his check off..the class before he had it on...because there was no difference in the tightness from on or off.

Here is the check on (I think LOLOL)

PS I saw a standardbred go down with a check..the roof of his mouth was hamburger. Saw a pony go down, dumb trainer had it checked too high and he choked himself off..needed one stitch in either side of upper lip to repair rips. It is rare, but it is ugly. BUT no worse than the damage ANY bit can cause that's for sure (ie long shanked curbs, twisted mule bits etc)

Kim

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

...I also don't see where having an overcheck on is going to make a horse MORE than what it is bred to be. If it can't physically hold it's head there, the check isn't going to MAKE it do that. These horses NATURALLY break level and carry their heads high! It's just EQUIPMENT you are adding! A bit can't MAKE a horse more or less than what it is, but the right bit fitted properly can enhance the horses' response to you. They ARE bred to perform that way...

Ok Disney now I'm confused, not hard thing to do to me this early in the morning. :bgrin However, if it's just added equipment then it makes about as much sense to me as putting a tie-down on a peanut-pushing QH. It is confusing to me to why one would want to use a check on an already upheaded horse so if it really is not making a horse do more than what nature intended, then what's the purpose?

 

[MiLo Minis]

"Horses are TRAINED with whatever equipment is needed for their discipline, be it overchecks, western saddles, stallion tack (side reins), breastcollars, full draft collars... and what is the extent of "cruel"? Different disciplines will always be considered cruel depending on the viewer's experience. I think horses do what they are bred to do. Is western Reining cruel... forcing such strain on the hocks and legs to do such incredible quick athletic maneuvers? Is stadium Jumping cruel, for forcing horses to leap incredible jumps and sometimes falling? Is draft horse pulling competitions cruel, forcing a horse or two to pull a weight with every fiber of it's body even if the load is too heavy? Is fine Harness cruel, forcing a horses' head up with a check rein? These horses are all athletes, trained to do what they were bred to do because they have the conformation, mind, and talent to do it. The owners and trainers love them and care for them and are usually in awe of what the horse is capable of.

Where is the line drawn in the use of spurs, whips, stud chains, bits, shoes, saddles.... it's all in the eye of the beholder AND the proper or improper use of it."

I don't think any of the disciplines available for horses are cruel AS LONG AS THE HORSE is bred to do them. There is nothing wrong with a fancy high stepping horse, they are beautiful to watch but if they are bred to perform that way why in the world is there any need for a check to force them to carry their head higher? You can't force a horse to jump higher or pull more than it is capable of - it is just plain going to quit. If you use any method to try to force them then you are being cruel. I have seen and known of many horses that have had a too tight check applied and the horse has flipped and killed itself. That is indeed CRUEL. How do you know, with each individual horse, when you are going to reach that point? The check in and of itself, no matter how loosely it is applied, affects the horse with every stride. We see several photos here of some very lovely horses that move beautifully on their own (although from all appearances they have had other artificial means applied such as chains or bungees). Why would anyone feel the need to do anything to "enhance" that? I would very much like to see the rule, that says we MUST use a check, discarded so that anyone going in the ring that doesn't want to have to put their horse through that pain and aggravation no longer HAS to just to be able to go in the ring. Then let the judges decide what wins and what doesn't.

Once again, the original poster asked the question "is a check necessary?" and NO it is most definitely NOT!

 

[disneyhorse]

The check rein does NOT wrench the head way up, the horse already carries it's head up there. But it keeps the head there, and if you had it adjusted way loose on such an upright horse it would be flapping all over the place.

In the breed ring (which is where the check would be adjusted like that) the judge is looking for a "snapshot" of all the horse is capable of, so you are 'putting and keeping" your horse in that perfect frame. It is a lot of work to get your horse to excel all-out for those few minutes in the ring, in front of the judge. That is why halter people sweat,groom,condition,and clip those halter horses for just a couple minutes in the ring.

Horses which carry themselves so upright and have so much action must exert themselves all-out in the ring for those few minutes to show the judge their fullest potential.

That is the use of the overcheck to it's "tightest" potential.

The adjustment of the check is highly individual according to how the horse is trained and conformed.

And willowwood.... OOOOHHHH

: I love that pony!!!

:

Andrea

 

[disneyhorse]

The check in and of itself, no matter how loosely it is applied, affects the horse with every stride. We see several photos here of some very lovely horses that move beautifully on their own (although from all appearances they have had other artificial means applied such as chains or bungees). Why would anyone feel the need to do anything to "enhance" that? I would very much like to see the rule, that says we MUST use a check, discarded so that anyone going in the ring that doesn't want to have to put their horse through that pain and aggravation no longer HAS to just to be able to go in the ring. Then let the judges decide what wins and what doesn't.

The several photos of MY horses are horses that have had NO chains or bungees on them. I have put chains on my mare three times ever, and that was AFTER that picture was taken. Having chains on sporadically does NOT affect the motion of the horse. It only affects the motion when the muscles become accustomed to it. You see, miniature horse people (myself included, in the past) do not UNDERSTAND artificial/action aids and jump to the conclusion that hackneys/modernsheltands etc. do NOT break level like that naturally. But they DO! I was fascinated with this mare I have, when I first bought her I was AMAZED that she could trot with so much action... barefoot and straight out of a pasture! I know, MiLo, that all you might have ever seen are the "enhanced" ponies and assume that they are MADE that way... when really it is a different degree of action.

But since it is a show COMPETITION, people WANT that edge. If you gave people the OPTION of having a check or not, I don't think people would opt against the check because they lose that slight edge. I just don't.

It wouldn't make much of a difference in a Country Pleasure class but it certainly would in a Park Harness class.

I think my little mini stallion, who is competing well in Pleasure, could make a great Park horse but it would take different training. I would have to shorten up his extension to enhance his knee action, and some of that would be done by raising his check rein.

YES, action is affected by the check rein but ONLY if the horse hits it. And sometimes that "affected action" is desired!

That said... the check rein is not "necessary" for some disciplines and more necessary in others, it is merely a piece of equipment.

I would drive without one for ADS and with one for breed shows. That is what is called for. I don't see a check as bad or good, but a piece of equipment just like bell boots or saddles or bits.

Andrea

 

[MiLo Minis]

Actually Andrea, I own several horses that can move like that naturally and without EVER having had anything applied to them. As I said earlier, I do breed for driving horses and I appreciate pretty action but am just not willing to hurt or aggravate my horses to achieve it. Once a horse is harnessed you will find that their natural action is subdued somewhat by the weight of the cart and the change in their balance but I also own several horses that with proper training and conditioning have achieved that pretty action in harness as well. It takes time and work for a horse to be able to get to that point and checks are used to circumvent that training so that you can get your 3 year olds in the ring and winning quicker. Think about it - that means that they are using muscles that are not meant to do what you are asking them to do and without the proper conditioning to get them ready for it. Yes it can be done but I am not willing to hurt or risk hurting the horse to get there quicker. What you have shown are not Miniatures and I have yet to see a Miniature Horse that is born and built to move like a Park Harness horse - the ONLY way to get them there is by forcing them to move unnaturally by the use of some very cruel means. Why is it that people NEED an "edge"? Why is it we are not just happy with things the way they are meant to be? Why is it that, if we want something badly enough, we aren't willing to do the work and breed to get to that point rather than sacrificing our horses to get there NOW?

 

[willowoodstables]

Thanks Andrea!! That is JJ, aka Cockleburr's Titan whom I bought for my greenhown hubby to drive and then I stole him LOLOL. He is a trooper..mega heart with a clown personality. Geesh I love my Hackneys :bgrin

Kim