I have another "Grievance"

[wcr]

I was reading the post about starting a commitee and had the thought that while we are at it, why doesn't AMHA do something about the disreputable breeders that damage our miniature horse breed? I am sure a few names have already popped into your head. You know, the breeders we hear about and pm each other and warn newbies about when they post. The ones that sell horses at a great price that sucker people in and sell on breeders certificates and then the horses DNA don't match the sire and dam on the papers and other similar problems.

When I have talked to AMHA about problems they say,"We are well aware of this breeder". Then why don't they do something about it instead of sticking their head in the sand and pretend they can't do anything? Every other registry I have dealt with has suspended members until they correct the problem and printed the names in the breed journal for all to see. This is not an expensive fix. Some warning letters and then suspend their privledges. Instead we have people that end up angry and talk badly about AMHA and have unregistered horses. Many of these are people just getting into those cute little horses that have a bad experience from the beginning.

Another comment I have heard is "You should have called us(AMHA) before buying the horse". Yes, buyer beware, but as I said, it is usually the newbie or someone out of the area that hasn't heard about this breeders reputation.

 

[maestoso]

Because, legally AMHA cannot do anything. If a person buys a horse under contract that states the horse is the product of said dam and sire, then it is tested, and the DNA doesn't match, it is up to THAT person to not only take legal action, but to provide proof to AMHA so that they can pull the papers on the horse who's DNA doesn't match the recorded dam and sire.

 

[user 488]

, why doesn't AMHA do something about the disreputable breeders that damage our miniature horse breed? I am sure a few names have already popped into your head. You know, the breeders we hear about and pm each other and warn newbies about when they post. The ones that sell horses at a great price that sucker people in and sell on breeders certificates and then the horses DNA don't match the sire and dam on the papers and other similar problems.

Unfortunately this is a problem with all Registries. And they cannot do a thing about it unless they break some sort of "Registry" rules. Unfortunately the things that you have listed are not breaking any rules. I know it's sad but that's just how it is. It just opens them up to way to many lawsuits.

Most of these people know exactly what they can get away with. It is a matter of BUYER BEWARE!

Yes, it amazes me too that people get sucked into some of these deals. Would love to see some of these babies grown up or the so called "show quality" animals they have been sucked into buying because some full sister or brother won a prize somewhere. Some unknowledgeable people think they have the moon and others know they have been raped.

It boils down to the same thing that has been said to newbies and others over and over. EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE BUYING. Don't just take for granted that because you hear all these wonderful things about someone that it must be true. Look and see who owns some of these horses bred by these Farms and go to the source. You know......some people have just learned how to "ADVERTISE" well.

Don't be just another cow in the herd..........if the rest jump off a cliff be smart enough not to jump along with them.

 

[New2Minis]

I think that the registry's should do something about breeders/sellers who do not file the appropriate paperwork for horses/foals that they sell and the NEW buyer has to pay all the late fees, double transfer fees, stallion reports, etc. And the breeder/seller gets out of paying for anything. Not fair and the registry's do nothing about it. I know you are supposed to be aware that all paperwork is done, in a perfect world that is great. But when you are new to the game then the breeder/seller can get away with "OOPS , I didnt send in all the paperwork". Very frustrating!!

 

[Jill]

why doesn't AMHA do something about the disreputable breeders that damage our miniature horse breed?

Liability.

However, I'm all ears of anyone here wants to privately clue me in as to who not to buy from.

 

[ruffian]

Because we live in AMERICA - that's why!!! We have the freedom to do what's right, and the freedom to do what's wrong. I'm very tired of people saying THERE OUTTA BE A LAW, and WHY DOESN"T THE GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING.

In my opinion. the less rules and government (even registry and association) influence in MY LIFE, the better!!!

 

[Minimor]

There'd be a huge liability for AMHA or any other registry that started recommending that buyers not buy from specific farms. I believe that the registry will answer questions about whether a stallion report was filed for a specific stallion/mare combo (some will, can't say about all of them) and if papers are in the name of the seller and if a horse is made permanent or not. They cannot say "don't buy a horse from XXX because her horses are NEVER registered properly"

As long as people are willing to buy horses on application and as long as people are willing to buy horses who don't come with up to date papers, then sellers are going to keep selling horses on application or without up to date papers. If every buyer would see the mess the paperwork is in & say sorry, I'm not buying until you straighten out that mess and walk away, then sellers would have to take note & start cleaning up their act. Even newbie buyers should take their time & ask lots of questions--not just of the one seller, but of a number of people--then they would learn about how the paperwork is supposed to be done, and they would know exactly what they're risking when they buy that horse on application or with temporary papers that expired 5 years ago and 3 or 4 transfers for that horse. People too often buy horses without really paying attention to what they are told. If the seller says the horse is AMHA eligible, the buyer ASSUMES that mean by regular registration, and never considers the possibility that the seller means the horse is eligible for registration if you hardship that horse into AMHA. Sometimes the seller doesn't get that specific and just lets the buyer assume everything is simple, straight forward and cheap...which isn't exactly right IMO...but other times the seller does get more specific & the buyer doesn't pay attention or doesn't understand & yet doesn't ask more questions.

 

[eagles ring farm]

i'd be all ears too Jill

for any warnings through a pm only please

 

[MiLo Minis]

What I find amazing is that when new to Mini people shop even if they are told to make sure the paperwork is up to date and correct before purchasing they still quite often get taken because they don't know what they are looking at. The answer to the question of what should be done is EDUCATION. Educate yourself before purchasing. If no one could sell without the paperwork being correct and complete it would get done. DON'T buy if it isn't. If you don't know yourself what it should look like then get help from someone who will.

 

[Cathy_H]

When I have talked to AMHA about problems they say,"We are well aware of this breeder". Then why don't they do something about it instead of sticking their head in the sand and pretend they can't do anything

Because some of these breeders will threaten to sue & run AMHA out of business just like some threatened to sue & do AMHA in a few years ago regarding another situation.

Years ago I heard someone complain about a horse not being what the sellers claimed it to be. The sellers response,

" they should have known what they were looking at". Thing is the problem was not visible.

However, I'm all ears of anyone here wants to privately clue me in as to who not to buy from

.
Thing is if a breeder sells enough horses, some buyers are going to get done right and some aren't. A breeder cannot stay in business & do all buyers wrong. Thus they pick & choose who they think they can buffalo. You won't know until it is all over with if you were one of the lucky buyers or the one to unload a horse on.

 

[ruffian]

Another problem is that while the breeder may be on the up and up, the buyer may still feel cheated. For example, if a seller says a horse is "show Quality", and the buyer takes it out with no training or doesn't clean the horse up and it gets the gate, is it the sellers fault?

What if a horse goes over and there isn't a height guarantee? there are just too many variables to try to pigeonhole a breeder or farm. A disgruntled buyer can spread a lot of tales.

 

[bingo]

What I find amazing is that when new to Mini people shop even if they are told to make sure the paperwork is up to date and correct before purchasing they still quite often get taken because they don't know what they are looking at. The answer to the question of what should be done is EDUCATION. Educate yourself before purchasing. If no one could sell without the paperwork being correct and complete it would get done. DON'T buy if it isn't. If you don't know yourself what it should look like then get help from someone who will.

This all sounds great however the reality is most minis are an impulse purchase

 

[Denise]

New2Minis I know exactly how you feel. Sure wish there was a site that we buyers (and I'm not a newbie) could list the sellers that have ripped us off on paperwork. I thought I knew this seller. What a joke that turned out to be! I paid off my filly in April and still to this day have not received her papers. It has been a long on going fight to get those papers. I did get a call from a lady tonight that said she went to the sellers today and that she has my papers in hand, registration and transfer papers. But no check. Looks like I'll be forking out another couple hundred to get this filly registered when it was the seller that should have done this. She best pray I never run into her.

 

[mmmorgans]

Well - I have certainly learned many times not to trust people. Buyer beware - those are the most important two words to remember when you are shopping for a new horse. I tend to trust people - and have been totally ripped off on several occassions. I have purchased horses that ended up being near death they were in such horrendous condition. I have purchased horses that were totally misrepresented by the breeder - I could go on and on. But - had I been not so trusting I would have ended up with my money in my pocket and a problem horse left with the problem seller.

So - buyer beware - do you homework - get references - go and see the horse in person!!!! And just because someone is a "big" breeder - it doesn't mean that you can let your guard down. Buyer beware - educate yourself - BUYER BEWARE!!!!!

And if someone starts a list of breeders NOT to buy from - I have a few names that I would like to add to that list. And there are a couple of those people that are advertising right now, on the sales board - with quality horses that are bred to quality stallions - yeah right!!!!!!

 

[Jill]

I haven't read all the replies but I think a lot of times, if the buyers were just educated about horses and in doing business, then they wouldn't get "ripped off" by supposed dispreputable breeders. I know that I've bought a fair number of horses, and never have I been disappointed with what I got for my money. I got what I expected -- but I also knew how to look at what I was aiming to buy beforehand and knew about the paperwork beforehand. Shoot... people breed these horses before they know how to raise foals or about conformation, they train them to drive in a day, they think WCMHR is a registry with papers s substantial as AMHA's and AMHR's... is it any wonder that a lot of them buy before they know what to ask and look for? Sellers are not always at fault. Sometimes uneducated buyers assume a lot of things the seller has no clue they've assumed. Also, if you know your stuff, a seller is more likely to treat you properly even if they are inclined to not do right by all...

THEN there are a few cases I've heard about over the years, from people I trust, who were promised things by people they trusted (and I could also see myself trusting) and then that person doesn't follow through. That's too bad. I think here on LB, it's easy to think we know some people that we really do not KNOW. Some of the people who've done wrong by other members has really surprised (and saddened) me.

 

[MSRminis]

Having been ripped off more than a few times-and having made every rookie mistake in buying horses (big and small) I make sure I take the time to explain paperwork, registries, what to watch out for to everyone that comes to our farm whether or not they buy a horse from me...

 

[Jill]

New2Minis I know exactly how you feel. Sure wish there was a site that we buyers (and I'm not a newbie) could list the sellers that have ripped us off on paperwork. I thought I knew this seller. What a joke that turned out to be! I paid off my filly in April and still to this day have not received her papers. It has been a long on going fight to get those papers. I did get a call from a lady tonight that said she went to the sellers today and that she has my papers in hand, registration and transfer papers. But no check. Looks like I'll be forking out another couple hundred to get this filly registered when it was the seller that should have done this. She best pray I never run into her.

WOOHOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am very happy this is finally working out for you

This was one of those cases that had me saying "I can't beleive she did that to her!". I'd have taken her word for it back when you did as well

 

[New2Minis]

Everyone keeps saying "Educate Yourself" which I agree and "Buyer Beware" . Why is it always that the Buyer has to be on guard all the time?? Why don't we say as "Breeders" you have the duty to educate new buyers that purchase YOUR horses. If you are labeling yourself as a breeder then it should be a common practice to have all your paperwork done and PAID for before you sell a horse. If the buyer agrees to buy a horse on application , at least the papers are all filled out and it should be explained to them what they have to do on theri end regarding pictures, fees, etc. I know a couple bad apples spoil the whole batch but I have had 1 bad experience with a purchase that is still not resolved completely. BUT the other purchases I have made were from WONDERFUL breeders who gave me mountains of papers all done and ready for me to mail in!!!

 

[Denise]

Can you believe it Jill, this nightmare could possibly be over on Monday!

This has been a roller coaster ride from hexx.

I'm still not doing the happy dance till I have those papers in my hands!

Anybody want to know who she is feel free to pm me, I'd be glad to tell you who she is and show you the whole story. I really dont want anybody going thru what I have been going thru since 03/23/08.

 

[minimomNC]

To be honest, the best way to go no matter who it is or how much the horse is, is get a contract, signed by both parties with what is expected and what will or will not be done. Get it in writing. And one thing I learned, if its a friend or someone you think you trust, make sure that contract is in hand. Its the only way to make sure you remain friends. If you buy a horse for $500 and the seller says there are papers but not in hand at the moment of payment or pick up, get it in writing as to when you can expect to receive those papers. Even if the price is low, you still bought a registered horse, your not the one that put the price on the horse, the seller did so they owe you what was agreed on. Make it stick. This goes for everyone, new to minis or not, we have all seen how having things in writing would have given recourse in several situations.

So no matter who you are or what you buy, get it all in writing. Its the safest way to insure you get what you pay for. Its also alot easier to get back what hasn't been paid for.