If excuse for checks is "safety"...

[Sue_C.]

I read all the time on here that checks are a safety device. Now, I really do not agree, but can understand why some people beleive it as that is what they have always been told. Yes, myself I have even said it in the past...and still agree with it...when green drivers are learning.

BUT...in the showring...do you really think it is used as a safety device?? Seriously, when you look at that check so tight it twangs, holding the head in place; and the martingale holding it down...do you TRUELY think it is because it is safer...or EASIER? Take a look at some CDE drivers with their horses...big or small...they are not even allowed to use a check after training level, and most do not even use it then.

Now...back to the question of safety. IF a check is such a valuable safety tool...WHY on earth do "we" drive with no breeching, and have any of you ever seen a horse driven in the show ring with a bucking or kicking strap? (I know it has been done...but very rarely) IMHO...THOSE are TRUELY safety devices; so why are they not a required piece of equipment? I know it is optional...but if safety is really the concern with checks...why are these other pieces of equipment not as necessary as the check?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Boinky]

i've often wondered that too sue. i also don't see checks per se as a saftey tool. infact i think they can cause more problems than solve (rearing ect). i do think bucking straps and breeching tend to serve far more purpose and lets face it..even thugh they are "well trained show horses' i can't tell you how many bi name trainers had "oopsies" in the ring at nationals either rears, taking off, running int walls, ect! It happens i guess.

 

[susanne]

Sue, I think you hit upon the truth in the other thread when you mentioned checks replacing proper training.

In the breed shows, it is more important to get horses into the ring, get a show record, then get them breeding than it is to train them properly.

I also think it is absurd that any driving horse should need a header when backing!

As for green and youth drivers, if a horse cannot be trusted not to act up, it should NOT be driving by either, especially in the show ring.

Oh well, as I always say, these aren't driving classes, they're halter-in-motion classes.

 

[jbrat]

Now...back to the question of safety. IF a check is such a valuable safety tool...WHY on earth do "we" drive with no breeching, and have any of you ever seen a horse driven in the show ring with a bucking or kicking strap? (I know it has been done...but very rarely) IMHO...THOSE are TRUELY safety devices; so why are they not a required piece of equipment? I know it is optional...but if safety is really the concern with checks...why are these other pieces of equipment not as necessary as the check?
Inquiring minds want to know.

Excellent Point!!

I'd like to know why too!

They should all be optional!

(except, IMO, breeching should be required, not that it will ever happen)

 

[Sue_C.]

As for green and youth drivers, if a horse cannot be trusted not to act up, it should NOT be driving by either, especially in the show ring.

I agree with this. 99% of the time, it is true, but in that 1% even an old "been there done that" horse will try to take advantage of a small child for their first solo or two. (don't think they don't know who has those reins) If the check is there...that is one less thing to worry about until the child has had a few more lessons, and knows what to do if the horse ducks it's head. And I agree that I would NEVER put a child or any green driver in a ring unless I felt they were both ready and the horse 110% safe for them in that ring.

Oh well, as I always say, these aren't driving classes, they're halter-in-motion classes.

That one cracked me up!

Boinky...when I wrote this post I thought of you. Didn't you say that you have used both breeching and kicking strap in the showring once?

You know...it dismays me to hear of "big name" trainers having horses pinging against the walls/rails, in a class, but we hear it all the time.

If my horse was one of them, I would be wondering where my horse's training money went, as it hadn't been spent on the training as I expected it to.

 

[MiLo Minis]

The idea that checks used the way they are in the show ring are a safety feature is ridiculous. They actually do cause accidents because the horses get so frustrated with them. There is no rule that says you can't wear breeching or use a kicking strap in the show ring though so, those of you that wish to, may.

I personally see absolutely nothing wrong with requiring headers in a show ring. Headers are not necessarily there ONLY to help your horse when backing should he rear but should someone else's horse act up they can take hold and get you safely out of the way or keep your horse still so that he doesn't get upset and cause more trouble. There are more accidents in the lineup than at any other time. When you are lined up, side by side with blinders on, a header can come in handy.

 

[Sue_C.]

There is no rule that says you can't wear breeching or use a kicking strap in the show ring though so, those of you that wish to, may.

I know they are optional, but why not manditory as safety devices...if that is really the true reason that checks are maniroty, is what I am saying.

As far as breeching is concerned...remember the post not long ago from someone who HAD used breeching, and the judge told them "they were only for mountain driving", or some such silliness? This isn't the first time, from what I recall reading there, that breeching caused one to be either knocked down several placings or not even looked at.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

You won't see kicking straps used in ADS competitions much either, for the same reason that I feel checks should be optional in the AMHA/R rings. They are AIDS, used to train the horse in what is expected of him while he is learning his job. Checks teach the horse not to steal grass, kicking straps teach them not to buck or play up in harness. The driver is the one who should be preventing those actions; the devices are only there to assist the whip (driver) in getting the point across. A well-trained horse should need neither although of course it does little harm to keep a kick strap or loose check on as long as it isn't interferring with the horse's way of going.

The idea that a check is necessary to prevent bucking is ridiculous in my opinion. First of all it doesn't work (trust me, Kody has proved that several times), secondly I don't recall seeing a single check on any of the ridden horses I've worked with and competed against and you know, none of them bucked either. Why? Because they understood their jobs and were trained not to!

A happy horse who thoroughly understands his job, likes it, and is not in any pain is not going to try and destroy his cart except under extreme provocation, in which case the rolled leather check would probably have snapped anyway.

Like many of you I've seen quite a few accidents essentially caused by a tight check in one way or another and would never consider them a safety device. If you're taking a drive over uneven ground you are actually putting the horse's safety at risk by using a tight check- they cannot use their necks to recover from a stumble and may very well go to their knees as well as getting a nasty yank in the mouth. I've got several fascinating reprinted books from the 1800's that talk about bearing reins and nowhere, NOWHERE, do any of those older books mention the bearing rein as a safety device. They were to keep the coachman's arms from tiring over twenty mile drives and to help inexperienced horsemen get that hard-mouthed rental horse from Point A to Point B. "Bits And Bearing-Reins - With Observations On Horses And Harness," by Edward Fordham Flower, discusses frequent incidents of "fractious" horses being bitted more and more harshly and checked up tighter and tighter because the inexperienced everyday driver never stopped to think that the horse was reacting to pain and the prey animal's panicked objection to tight constraint. Remember Black Beauty's "Ginger" and her "I can't bear it! I can't. I can't!" right before she exploded?

Tight checks cause fancy prancing and leaping, no question about it. The genteel owners of more stylish teams didn't care that the horses were reacting from pain and nervousness...they just liked the stylish picture it produced. It seems to me that similar flash is the goal of fine harness showing, although of course our breed does not allow the torture-device bits nor gag bearing reins and we're not asking the horse to haul for hours that way. I still feel we can do better and I'm afraid I will always find a light, forward, correctly moving horse more beautiful than one who is crammed up into a check and roaring as they flick their toes and race madly in circles. For the most part I figure "to each their own" but it sure would be nice if that meant I could go without a check if in my educated opinion that was best for my horse.

I also think it is absurd that any driving horse should need a header when backing

I have to admit it always amuses me when the announcer notices I don't have a header and asks repeatedly if all headers are in, does anyone else need a header, remember that all youth MUST HAVE a header!, etc.

Guys, I know it's unusual to be without a header but I'm not a youth! *LOL* More importantly, my horse is standing perfectly quietly. He doesn't need a header. Why? Because he was trained to stand, and because he does not have a tight check that makes it uncomfortable for him to stand still for more than a few minutes. I feel perfectly safe because even if someone else's horse blows up mine is trained to move quickly and calmly forward on command even if he's snoozing and I trust him to get us out of the way. There's no need for someone to grab his bridle and forcibly move him, nor should there ever be when the horse is properly finished, sensible, and has an experienced driver. Pairs, yes, they need a header. Green horses and youth drivers? Sure. Roadsters and Park horses and animated single pleasure animals? Okay, fine. But if a supposedly trained "Country Pleasure" horse, or worse, an obstacle driving horse or Western Country horse, needs a header on a regular basis...there's something wrong.

Now if I ever get to Nationals, yes, I'll probably have a header. If I'm going to be standing in line for twenty minutes I want someone to talk to and someone to distract Kody from his boredom!

But otherwise, nope, not going to make my poor mom dress up just to get her boots dirty.

I know they are optional, but why not manditory as safety devices...if that is really the true reason that checks are mandatory, is what I am saying.

Because after all, you have a check. Your horse can't buck, so why would you need a kicking strap?

Breeching is a safety thing on hills, even I have to admit that on the flat it has little to do with safety although much with comfort.

Leia

 

[MiLo Minis]

Okay this is my personal opinion on why headers are mandatory for youth: The header can also undo the overly tight check while the horse is in lineup so that he doesn't rear and go over backwards. They don't want anyone that doesn't have their check on overly tight to appear to have an advantage by not needing a header for their properly trained, well behaved horse, so they say EVERYONE MUST HAVE ONE. We do need to remember though that even though we may know how to react in a bad situation kids don't always think that quickly and may need an adult hand to help them out.

 

[ckmini]

Oh well, as I always say, these aren't driving classes, they're halter-in-motion classes.

I just wanted to say that I disagree with this. My National Champion driving horse can't win a halter class to save his life. It takes so much more than a nicely-conformed horse to make a good driving horse.

However that being said, breed shows have a different goal than ADS shows. Breed shows are exhibiting the horse, not (necessarily) the skills of the driver. So yes, the beauty of the horse is being shown, but it's a different kind of beauty and talent than a halter-class.

 

[Sue_C.]

even I have to admit that on the flat it has little to do with safety although much with comfort.

Even on the flat, if a horse jumps forward, and even if the wrap straps are unbearably tight, (as is often the case I see when folks are breechless) that cart can very well run up the horses butt and legs.

I do agree that a mini presents a nice picture with no breeching, rather than a heavy, bulky one...but one can get nice fine harness breeching that will do the job. Myself, I have false breechings on every one of my carts; that does the job, and keeps the look "clean-n-tidy."

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I just wanted to say that I disagree with this. My National Champion driving horse can't win a halter class to save his life. It takes so much more than a nicely-conformed horse to make a good driving horse.
However that being said, breed shows have a different goal than ADS shows. Breed shows are exhibiting the horse, not (necessarily) the skills of the driver. So yes, the beauty of the horse is being shown, but it's a different kind of beauty and talent than a halter-class.

I think what Susanne meant was that in the breed ring the driving horses are judged primarily on their outline and action, just like in a halter class. A completely green horse will often win if it's the fanciest mover or has the highest headset, never mind that it's on its forehand and there's a more correctly trained older horse in the corner with a bit less flash. In the ADS horses of completely different action will go head to head and are judged on how well each horse is achieving the goals of the training scale rather than how well they match a generic outline. The horse can be incredibly beautiful or flashy but if he's tossing his head, jigging, or otherwise acting up he will not be placed. The Steady Eddy pony will win because he's a pleasure to drive even though he's not as eye-catching.

One type is judged on the horse himself, one on how well the horse is trained to drive, and Reinsmanship, of course, is judged on how well the horse is being driven. Three very different methods of placing the class.

Even on the flat, if a horse jumps forward, and even if the wrap straps are unbearably tight, (as is often the case I see when folks are breechless) that cart can very well run up the horses butt and legs.

Not if there are properly-placed shaft stops on the cart, which in my opinion are absolutely necessary if you do not have breeching. In fact I made my comment under the assumption that you would have either shaft stops or thimbles to prevent the cart from running up...OF COURSE it's incredibly dangerous to go without breeching if you don't have those!

Sorry if I wasn't clear.

Leia

 

[mondak]

I have to admit it always amuses me when the announcer notices I don't have a header and asks repeatedly if all headers are in, does anyone else need a header, remember that all youth MUST HAVE a header!, etc. Guys, I know it's unusual to be without a header but I'm not a youth! *LOL* More importantly, my horse is standing perfectly quietly. He doesn't need a header. Why? Because he was trained to stand

I get the same reaction by both the announcer/ring stewards and the other exhibitors in my class! One time a ring steward even walked over and "headed" for me...LOL, I was like "thank you but he is quite content to stand here by himself"

Courtney

 

[Sue_C.]

In fact I made my comment under the assumption that you would have either shaft stops or thimbles to prevent the cart from running up

Yes, some of us do have stops, (had to put them on myself) but I still do not like to stop my carts forward motion with the girth. As for thimbles, I don't like them for the same reason.

Another thing...in reference to shaft stops...none of the mini carts I have ever bought, including my more expensive meadowbrook types, have ever had shaft stops. Strange that...when you consider that ALL of my full-sized carts and wagons had them.

As I do plan on Combined Driving in the future, I think I will go back to using a full breeching more often.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

My Bellcrown Minicrown came with them, so did my Hyperbike, and so do the Pacifics and other top CDE brands. So the manufacturers are learning!

I put after-market ones on my Graber show cart this summer along with footman's loops so I could use breeching in the obstacle classes.

I dislike thimbles and using shaft stops as brakes for the same reasons you do, but IMO it's not technically a safety issue on the flat unless the horse becomes so upset or uncomfortable that it explodes. Kody happens to be one of those sensitive horses so the breeching only comes off in the showring and then only with a light show cart. He took to rearing repeatedly when I asked him to back our old heavy easy entry cart from the saddle.

Breeching is simply a part of our everyday apparel - for safety - because I'm always going out cross country and practicing fast spins on the flat. I can't see calling it a mandatory safety device in the ring though, I really can't. No more than the check. BOTH should be optional as far as I'm concerned, along with a kicking strap.

Leia

 

[Sue_C.]

I can't see calling it a mandatory safety device in the ring though, I really can't. No more than the check. BOTH should be optional as far as I'm concerned, along with a kicking strap.

Exactly my point.

Although I do find it much easier to back my horses in a class, when they wear a breeching. Several friends of mine have started using a false breeching as I do, as their horses had started popping up when asked to back in heavy footing...which we do find in most arenas.

As for the Pacific carts, I was just at their finishing shop in British Columbia a couple of weeks ago. Luckily there were several carts and wagons there ready for shipping, including two miniature carts, so I got a good look. I have to say they are the best one's I have seen yet, and have put a Pacific on my wish list.

 

[dannigirl]

We have a header for our youth, not only because it is mandatory, but because we cannot control the horse standing next to our youth driver. She is perfectly capable of handling our horses and does well, but that doesn't mean the youth next to her can handle his horse. I want someone in there to take care of the emergencies. An adult may know to think quickly and move their horse out of the way of a 'situation', but a youth may not.

 

[Kendra]

Whether you feel that a header should be necessary or not, I think everyone can agree that it IS a good safety. Just because 5 out of the 6 youth in the class are perfectly capable of handling their horses on their own, it's still a good idea to have the rule in place for the 6th. Just because you believe that horses should be broke well enough for their youth (or amateur, or professional) to handle in the show ring, doesn't mean that every horse will be, or that they won't have a bad day, or have something out of the ordinary happen.

As far as what the judges are looking for in a driving class, I believe that the largest problem is that many judges only experience with driving horses is from a judges perspective. When you ask advice on what you can improve, and 9 times out of 10 you hear "check him up, put a martingale on him, and send him on", it's simply that they don't have the experience. When a couple youth from our club asked the judges, specifically, at a show last summer, WHY they recommended putting on a martingale, the judge got angry with them and left.

Anyway, to stay on topic ....

Sounds like everyone here agrees that the manditory checks rule needs some editing. I actually have a rule change form (AMHA) filled out and floating around, but as per usual wasn't organized enough to send it off. I was just proposing to change the rule that states that "over- or side-checks are manditory", to "over- or side-checks are optional".

But if it's already been tried .... hmmm, what if we also send some information to back it up? For instance, there's a very good passage in "Carriage Driving; A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training" about how a check interferes with the horse, and I believe it even addresses the myth that it's a safety problem.

Anyone here on the rule committee? What sort of information would be considered by the committee to enable the rule to be put to a vote? What about if we got everyone we could to send in the same rule change? Or a petition ... just something to show that it isn't just one person, but that it is a widespread idea, that many people would be interested in the change.

While I don't have a problem showing my horse under the current rule, I never use a check most of the time, and would love to be able to show without one as well. I just think that rather than sit here and complain about the rule to each other (when it appears everyone is in favour - or at least not against - the rule change), we should make an attempt to change it!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Whether you feel that a header should be necessary or not, I think everyone can agree that it IS a good safety. ...
I just think that rather than sit here and complain about the rule to each other (when it appears everyone is in favour - or at least not against - the rule change), we should make an attempt to change it!

I agree with both of the above. Headers do no harm at all and are an excellent idea whether in the show ring or not. Horses are unpredictable- there is no such thing as a 100% bomb-proof horse! I just don't think the horses should require a header in order to stand quietly. That's all! Nothing against using them in the ring.

I've often wondered if a rule change would have more of a chance now when so many mini drivers are becoming disillusioned and looking for other ways to drive their horses. Surely if we got enough signatures we could push it through....

Leia

 

[susanne]

I just don't think the horses should require a header in order to stand quietly. That's all! Nothing against using them in the ring.

EXACTLY.

All horses should be trained to stand calmly on their own, but I agree that YOUTH should have both a thoroughly trained horse AND a header. A youth driving a poorly trained horse can be in grave danger even with a header.